Universalism

[Tavita]

Man has never left his presence, we are not in the garden, we are not in heaven but the kingdom of God is within and without. It is all around us. God is not just in some far off place he is everywhere you look. There is no escaping his presence.

Question: If man can not enter into the presence of God without the sacrifice of Jesus how is it that Jesus dwelt among us before the sacrifice was made?

Paul speaking to the Greeks at the Aropagus:

Act 17:28 for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain even of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

 

[Tavita]

Double post...

 

[Soul Searcher]

Paul speaking to the Greeks at the Aropagus:

Act 17:28 for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain even of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

The parable of the fishes from the Nazerine Gospel.

8. Jesus answered them, saying, Hear ye this parable of the fishes. The fishes of a certain river communed with one another, saying, They tell us that our life and being is from water, but we have never seen water, we know not what water is. Then some among them, wiser than the rest, said: We have heard there dwelleth in the sea a wise and learned Fish, who knoweth all things. Let us journey to him, and ask him to shew us what water is.
9. So several of them set out to find this great and wise Fish and they came at last to the sea wherein the wise Fish dwelt, and they asked of him.
10. And when he heard them he said unto them, O ye foolish fish that consider not! Wise are ye, the few, who seek. In the water ye live, and move, and have your being; from the water ye came, to the water ye return. Ye live in the water, yet ye know it not. In like manner, ye live in God, and yet ye ask of me, “Shew us God.” God is in all things, and all things are in God.

 

[A New Dawn]

Man has never left his presence, we are not in the garden, we are not in heaven but the kingdom of God is within and without. It is all around us. God is not just in some far off place he is everywhere you look. There is no escaping his presence.

Question: If man can not enter into the presence of God without the sacrifice of Jesus how is it that Jesus dwelt among us before the sacrifice was made?

What gives you the idea that this is the kingdom of God?

 

[Soul Searcher]

Not sure what you mean by "this" but my ideas come from the bible, One such reference is in Luke where Jesus tells them the kingdom is within [depending on the translation] You should also be aware that the kingdom of God is not a physical place it is a state, those who are subject to God are part of his kingdom but many do not see the kingdom even though they too are a part of it.

[KJV] Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

[ISV]Luk 17:21 People won't say, 'Look! Here it is!' or "There it is!' For the kingdom of God is among you."

[ALT]Luk 17:21 neither will they say, 'Look here!' or 'Look there!' For listen! The kingdom of God is within [or, among] you*."

entos
Thayer Definition:
1) within, inside
1a) within you, i.e. in the midst of you
1b) within you, i.e. your soul

Gospel of Thomas
3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

basileia
Thayer Definition:
1) royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
1a) not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom

 

[Soul Searcher]

What gives you the idea that this is the kingdom of God?

Care to answer my question?

Question: If man can not enter into the presence of God without the sacrifice of Jesus how is it that Jesus dwelt among us before the sacrifice was made?

 

[A New Dawn]

Not sure what you mean by "this" but my ideas come from the bible, One such reference is in Luke where Jesus tells them the kingdom is within [depending on the translation] You should also be aware that the kingdom of God is not a physical place it is a state, those who are subject to God are part of his kingdom but many do not see the kingdom even though they too are a part of it.

[KJV] Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

[ISV]Luk 17:21 People won't say, 'Look! Here it is!' or "There it is!' For the kingdom of God is among you."

[ALT]Luk 17:21 neither will they say, 'Look here!' or 'Look there!' For listen! The kingdom of God is within [or, among] you*."

entos
Thayer Definition:
1) within, inside
1a) within you, i.e. in the midst of you
1b) within you, i.e. your soul

Gospel of Thomas
3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

basileia
Thayer Definition:
1) royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
1a) not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom

The Kingdom of God can be a spiritual state, but it is also a physical state. When it is a spiritual state, it is only present in those who are regenerated, those who have had their hearts turned by God. That is what being born again is. But it is also a physical state and was present on the earth when Christ (the king) was among us. Christ preached the kingdom and performed Messianic-sign miracles until the national Jewish leaders openly rejected him. After that, he stopped preaching the kingdom and prepared for the church. The church is the mystery-form of the kingdom.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I notice that you did not address my question, could it be that you do not have an answer?

 

[A New Dawn]

Care to answer my question?

Question: If man can not enter into the presence of God without the sacrifice of Jesus how is it that Jesus dwelt among us before the sacrifice was made?

Jesus humbled himself and took on humanity. By doing that, He was able to bear our sins, but He had to be a sacrifice in order to return to the Father's presence.

 

[Soul Searcher]

The Kingdom of God can be a spiritual state, but it is also a physical state. When it is a spiritual state, it is only present in those who are regenerated, those who have had their hearts turned by God. That is what being born again is. But it is also a physical state and was present on the earth when Christ (the king) was among us. Christ preached the kingdom and performed Messianic-sign miracles until the national Jewish leaders openly rejected him. After that, he stopped preaching the kingdom and prepared for the church. The church is the mystery-form of the kingdom.

Were the Pharisees born again when Jesus spoke to them? If not then why would he tell them that the kingdom is within them? Was he telling them a lie or are you mistaken?

 

[Soul Searcher]

Jesus humbled himself and took on humanity. By doing that, He was able to bear our sins, but He had to be a sacrifice in order to return to the Father's presence.

So are you saying that Jesus was not God in the flesh? That even those in the presence of Jesus were not in the presence of God?

 

[LightSeaker]

Jesus humbled himself and took on humanity. By doing that, He was able to bear our sins, but He had to be a sacrifice in order to return to the Father's presence.

To be sure, there are several theological theories on just how Jesus Christ is able to cleanse our sins so that the Father is able to look upon our wretched souls. What you wrote is but one among several of those theories. There is NOT an agreed upon belief on just how that done.

.

 

[LightSeaker]

The Kingdom of God can be a spiritual state, but it is also a physical state. When it is a spiritual state, it is only present in those who are regenerated, those who have had their hearts turned by God.

The teachings with in the Sermon on the Mount are the clear instructions given by Jesus Christ on the Kingdom of God. The word "regenerated" is an interesting word to use. Personally, I'd say that the Kingdom of God is present in anyone who is aware of and knows the mystery behind the Love and Compassion for other Human Beings as well as for the sacredness of God's Creation itself. I guess you could call that a "regenerated" heart. But what's so interesting is that it's not just limited to those who call themselves "Christian". God's reach and blessings are not limited by beliefs.

That is what being born again is. But it is also a physical state and was present on the earth when Christ (the king) was among us. Christ preached the kingdom and performed Messianic-sign miracles until the national Jewish leaders openly rejected him. After that, he stopped preaching the kingdom and prepared for the church. The church is the mystery-form of the kingdom.

I'll go on to suggest that the physical state happens when we actually do bring the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount down here to earth and actually make them real. That's not really being done right now. God works through us. It is His human Creation through which the Kingdom of God is realized here on earth where it is needed the most. Yes, Jesus is the conduit from the Father to us...but it isn't going to happen with out the Love and Compassion of Jesus Christ passing through us to other human being.

.

 

[LightSeaker]

The parable of the fishes from the Nazerine Gospel.

8. Jesus answered them, saying, Hear ye this parable of the fishes. The fishes of a certain river communed with one another, saying, They tell us that our life and being is from water, but we have never seen water, we know not what water is. Then some among them, wiser than the rest, said: We have heard there dwelleth in the sea a wise and learned Fish, who knoweth all things. Let us journey to him, and ask him to shew us what water is.
9. So several of them set out to find this great and wise Fish and they came at last to the sea wherein the wise Fish dwelt, and they asked of him.
10. And when he heard them he said unto them, O ye foolish fish that consider not! Wise are ye, the few, who seek. In the water ye live, and move, and have your being; from the water ye came, to the water ye return. Ye live in the water, yet ye know it not. In like manner, ye live in God, and yet ye ask of me, “Shew us God.” God is in all things, and all things are in God.

There is a saying in a certain spiritual path that I know that goes something like this:

"The all pervading power of the Light of God is most wonderful. It has been taught that man moves in it as a fish moves in water...and does not know it."

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[A New Dawn]

The teachings with in the Sermon on the Mount are the clear instructions given by Jesus Christ on the Kingdom of God. The word "regenerated" is an interesting word to use. Personally, I'd say that the Kingdom of God is present in anyone who is aware of and knows the mystery behind the Love and Compassion for other Human Beings as well as for the sacredness of God's Creation itself. I guess you could call that a "regenerated" heart. But what's so interesting is that it's not just limited to those who call themselves "Christian". God's reach and blessings are not limited by beliefs.

I'll go on to suggest that the physical state happens when we actually do bring the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount down here to earth and actually make them real. That's not really being done right now. God works through us. It is His human Creation through which the Kingdom of God is realized here on earth where it is needed the most. Yes, Jesus is the conduit from the Father to us...but it isn't going to happen with out the Love and Compassion of Jesus Christ passing through us to other human being.

.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and this liberal teaching of what is considered "the kingdom" is noted. It's not Biblical, but it is noted.

 

[LightSeaker]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and this liberal teaching of what is considered "the kingdom" is noted. It's not Biblical, but it is noted.

It's a perspective of the Kingdom of God offered that's based upon Love. I've come to realize that anything based upon Love IS considered a "liberal" view, is not considered Biblical, and as such should be rejected.

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[A New Dawn]

It's a perspective of the Kingdom of God offered that's based upon Love. I've come to realize that anything based upon Love IS considered a "liberal" view, is not considered Biblical, and as such should be rejected.

.

Well, the error of the "love only" approach to God is that God doesn't operate only on love. Love is only one of God's many characteristics, and all of them have to be satisfied, not just love. The "love only" approach denies the totality of who God is to focus on the one thing we think is important.

Heck, I'd love it if love was the only thing that mattered. Nobody wants to think that they, or any of their loved ones, or even their enemies for that matter, will end up in a place that isn't heaven, but when I experience the glory and majesty and power, as well as the love, of God, and I read the Bible, I have to understand that my desire in the matter is null and void, that it is God's will that will be accomplished. To just brush aside those portions of the Bible that speak to God's holiness and God's righteousness to focus on love is a sign that it is our desires we are addressing, and not God's desires, needs and will.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Ironically the bible says that God IS love, It also says that he who dwells in love dwells in God and God in him and he who knows not love knows not God. It does not say these things about any other characteristic that you might envision. Love is the key to the kingdom.

 

[Soul Searcher]

It's a perspective of the Kingdom of God offered that's based upon Love. I've come to realize that anything based upon Love IS considered a "liberal" view, is not considered Biblical, and as such should be rejected.

.

It's ironic that the word Liberal has became as a dirty word and is often associated with a very Christ like attitude of forgiveness, mercy, compassion, love, helping the poor, the sick and such. These people are attacked all the time by so called conservative christains and the like. I am especially fond of the term "bleeding heart liberal" as this really shows an attack on compassion. Sad that anyone could think that compassion is a bad thing.

 

[LightSeaker]

Well, the error of the "love only" approach to God is that God doesn't operate only on love. Love is only one of God's many characteristics, and all of them have to be satisfied, not just love. The "love only" approach denies the totality of who God is to focus on the one thing we think is important.

When it comes to actually making God's Kingdom on Earth a reality...Love and ONLY Love. I know...that's too liberal.

When it comes to all of the "beliefs" about God and Jesus Christ, well than your correct...there is a ton of stuff to consider. It's become quite complicated. But to actually bring the Kingdom of God down to earth..it's quite simple really, it's all about Love.

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