Universalism

[Soul Searcher]

I agree that, in general, those who are not really saved might have that type of attitude, which, IMO, demonstrates man's inability to choose, but I don't believe that anyone who has actually been guided by God, who's heart has been regenerated, would make comments like that.

You may very well be correct in that last sentence, yet I have heard [or should say saw] this many times from people who claim to be guided by God. I personally believe that anyone who is truly guided by God would be repulsed at the mere thought of any living creature being tortured for even a few minutes much less for eternity.

 

[red77]

Get this straight, believing in an eternal Lake of Fire does not make us evil. We believe it because we believe that is what the Word of God says and we desire to warn people of that and encourage belief for salvation. I'll admit I have been guilty of saying that all would sin more without the treat of eteranl LOF. That goes back to the time of conversion. What convinces us God hates sin is the punishment of it. but you are right in that as a maturing Christian I want to please God with my actions out of Love and appreciation and just because He is God: and as you say, just because it is right.

But your last sentence, that is as judgmental a statement as I have ever heard. You cannot judge us by what you believe. Whether you understand it, we believe that those who reject God are His enemy and, at death, will remain His enemy for eternity, and from that perspective we believe it is good that they are seperated from righteousness for all eternity. You act like we should know it to be false because YOU believe it to be false.

Tim, I don't neccasarily think that all those who ascribe to your theology are 'evil'. There are many I have debated with who despite believing in eternal hell derive no pleasure from the prospect. Unfortunately as SS has pointed out I've encountered several people on this forum among others that have point blank stated that they take delight in the 'justice' of other people or "sinners" suffering, to the extent that one woman on here admitted that she'd be glad if any of her own children who were 'unsaved' ended up in an eternal hell because it was just of God. On a different forum someone said he'd be willing to push someone into a literal lake of unending torment if required by God to do so.

The darkest attitudes I've ever encountered from people emanate from the doctrine of eternal suffering. To me it's not surprising because there is nothing more hopeless than a prospect of unending interminable suffering. Augustine (among others) believed that babies and infants were sent there. I've read some early accounts where babies were described as being in clay ovens screaming and writhing in fiery agony as they imagined it to be. How dark is that?

If you take it personally then I'm sorry that you do. There's plenty of accusations that are levelled at universalists, that it's nothing more than an appeal to or rooted in emotion. I won't deny that emotion certainly and still does play its part. We're not robots and our emotions are there for a reason. But it's more than that as others have explained at varyong points all over the thread

What I do take issue with is the idea that everyone who dies without accepting God is an eternal enemy. That is bizarre to my mind, how can an agnostic who died unsure be an enemy? What can anyone do to God that would make them an enemy after death no matter who they were in life? The last enemy to be destroyed is death, not people.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I believe this may be true however it is missleading to a degree. The word used is torment but that word has been watered down over the years and does not carry the full weight of torture. The reality is that words as used carry the same meaning with torment possibly being even worse than torture but seldom understood as such. I simply use the word torture because now-a-days that seems to drive the point home better.

Websters:
Torment
TOR'MENT, n. [L. tormentum.; torqueo, torno; Eng. tour; that is, from twisting, straining.]
1. Extreme pain; anguish; the utmost degree of misery, either of body or mind.

Torture
Torture
TORT'URE, n. [L. tortus, torqueo, to twist.]
1. Extreme pain; anguish of body or mind; pang; agony; torment.

There is however another meaning for the word torment as used int he bible and that is..

basanismos
Thayer Definition:
1) to torture, a testing by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

And then we see written in the works of Paul.

1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The torment is the test and the end result is salvation not eternal on going agony.

I have spent months on the parable of the rich-man/lazarus of Luke 16 where those words are also used.

This one commentator is pretty close to my view of it of which I have a thread on it at the link in my Siggy.........

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

In this verse, basanois simply conveys a sense of testing and proving through punishment. When this understanding is combined with a proper discernment of the symbolism of Hades, we can begin to see the point Yeshua is making. As a whole, the House of Judah would to be cut off and replaced during this current age by those from the nations who in faith would accept the sacrifice of the Messiah.

If the Pharisees and scribes understood Yeshua's prophetic parable, it must have astonished and infuriated them. How could the Jews become alienated from God while the elect Gentiles became the "seed of Abraham"? The implication that the House of Judah and those called from the Gentile nations were to change places would have been almost impossible for the Pharisees and scribes to believe.

 

[red77]

I'm quite sure that I'm one who has advocated that if universal salvation were possible people might have the attitude to sin now and pay later. It is entirely feasible considering that many unsaved people can say even with eternal torment, I'm not ready yet to do things Gods way. However, christians would not be able to sin now and pay later. It's not possible for that.

I've never heard "torture" used to describe eternal wrath though by non-universalists.

Eternal suffering is an incomprehensible concept for people, even those who ascribe to the doctrine that teaches it. Eternity is beyond the human minds capability to grasp let alone bring torment into the equation. How many 'unsaved people' actually believe that eternal torment exists in your opinion? Many see it as a manipulation device that uses fear to force submission that I've seen on forums. In 'real life' my parents and friends were appalled by the doctrine because of the senselessness of it and the hopelessness they would have for many of those already passen on, or even still alive.

I'm surprised you've never heard of the term torture used other than unis. It's been quite a common term I've encountered from people outside of the 'UR' camp...

 

[timlamb]

I did not say you were evil.

So you believe John literally saw this forever? How then do we have it written down to read. Would he not still be watching if what you seem to believe is true? Take away the word eternal and you will be closer to the truth.

But this is not really true as many of us do not believe in that threat, The only ones who would sin more are those who try not to sin out of fear of eternal punishment.

So if there was no threat of eternal punishment nothing would change?


I think it is more a statement of fact than a judgment. We know it is wrong to torture any living thing. To do so eternally would be beyond comprehension.



Yes you should know it to be false because you would condemn any man who tortured someone. When a person is brutally killed one of the first things people will normally say is that person did not deserve that but the concept of eternal hell is trillions of times worse.

As I said before Jesus wants us to be like God, To love one another, to love our enemies as ourselves, to forgive, to show mercy and so on.

I agree with Gort, I've never heard anyone who isn't a uni call it eteranl torture. I don't even believe everyone is gnashing their teath. It is a place of seperation from God, and that is all I know and that will be enough.

You paint a sorry picture of a just God with your stories of torture.

I know it will do no good to descuss different levels of punishment, nothing but heaven is acceptible to you.

You just want to take out a personal attack on all who believe the word of God when it comes to Satan and the Lake of Fire. Go ahead, if it helps you sleep tonight!

 

[Tavita]

I agree with Gort, I've never heard anyone who isn't a uni call it eteranl torture. I don't even believe everyone is gnashing their teath. It is a place of seperation from God, and that is all I know and that will be enough.

You paint a sorry picture of a just God with your stories of torture.

I know it will do no good to descuss different levels of punishment, nothing but heaven is acceptible to you.

You just want to take out a personal attack on all who believe the word of God when it comes to Satan and the Lake of Fire. Go ahead, if it helps you sleep tonight!

You haven't heard anyone call it torture? Just because the word is not always used doesn't mean they don't think (and want) it to be tortuous. Check out Jonathan Edwards (great preacher from last century) quotes:

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]Jonathan Edwards: [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]“Reprobate infants are vipers of vengeance, which Jehovah will hold over hell, in the tongs of his wrath, till they turn and spit venom in his face!” [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]“For ever harassed by a dreadful tempest, they shall fell themselves torn asunder by an angry God, and broken by the weight of His hand, and transfixed and penetrated by mortal stings, terrified by the thunderbolt of God. So that to sink into any gulf would be more tolerable than to stand for a moment in these terrors.” [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]1785 “Here all judges have a mixture of mercy, but the wrath of God will be poured out upon the wicked without mixture. Imagine yourself to be cast into a fiery oven…and imagine also that your body were to lie there for a quarter of an hour, full of fire, as full within and without as a bright coal fire, all the while full of quick sense; what horror would you feel at the entrance of such a furnace? Oh! Then how would your heart sink if you knew that after millions and millions of ages your torment would be no nearer to an end than ever it was. But your torment in hell will be immensely greater than this illustration represents.” Works, vol. Iii. 260 [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]“The pit is prepared, the fire is made ready, the furnace is now hot, ready to receive the wicked: the flames do now rage and glow. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much in the same way as one holds a spider or some loathsome insect, abhors you and is dreadfully provoked…He will trample them beneath His feet with inexpressible fierceness; He will crush their blood out, and will make it fly, so that it will sprinkle His garment and stain all His raiment.” Works, vii. 499. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica]“You cannot stand before an infuriated tiger even; what then will you do when God rushes against you in all His wrath?” Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.” (Do not suppose this kind of preaching no longer fills the pulpits of the world. This sermon is still continuously printed even to this day.)[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

And even here, in THIS forum... just read the ravings in this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7364238/

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*........
And even here, in THIS forum... just read the ravings in this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7364238/

I have seen some pretty bizarre threads on the Eschatology board also.......

http://www.christianforums.com/f14/

http://www.christianforums.com/t7252915/
Space Monkies.

 

[red77]

I agree with Gort, I've never heard anyone who isn't a uni call it eteranl torture. I don't even believe everyone is gnashing their teath. It is a place of seperation from God, and that is all I know and that will be enough.

You paint a sorry picture of a just God with your stories of torture.

I know it will do no good to descuss different levels of punishment, nothing but heaven is acceptible to you.

You just want to take out a personal attack on all who believe the word of God when it comes to Satan and the Lake of Fire. Go ahead, if it helps you sleep tonight!

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous Tim. Tavita has already pointed out one such excerpt from a preacher who most certainly believed hell to be a place of hideous torture along with others. If anything it's often the proponents of such an eternal place that accentuate the pain and suffering. It seems that now you even claim that not all will 'gnash their teeth'? Why? If thats whats literally described and is what will supposedly happen then who are you to say that not everyone destined to the place will end up gnashing their teeth? This is pretty ironic. You don't like the idea that people are tortured in hell and yet it's still 'just' for people to suffer for eternity in some fashion and thats ok?? How is unending suffering in ANY form not torturous for the person enduring it? This is bizarre Tim....

 

[timlamb]

This has something to do with eternal torment or universalism?

I was always taught in the Orthodox churches I have been a member of that this foreshadows the entering into the Kingdom when one becomes a christian.

Is it the perish bit you are trying to point out? I don't see that it means eternal, never ending, endless torment.

'âbad
aw-bad'
A primitive root; properly to wander away, that is lose oneself; by implication to perish (causatively, destroy): - break, destroy (-uction), + not escape, fail, lose, (cause to, make) perish, spend, X and surely, take, be undone, X utterly, be void of, have no way to flee.

Gee, maybe because it says to CHOOSE, and that it is set before you, life and death, so LOVE THE LORD and choose life. I narrowed it down for you but if you still don't see it, you are blind.

14"But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. Choose Life

15"See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

16in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
17"But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
18I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
19"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live,

 

[Tavita]

Gee, maybe because it says to CHOOSE, and that it is set before you, life and death, so LOVE THE LORD and choose life. I narrowed it down for you but if you still don't see it, you are blind.

14"But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. Choose Life

15"See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

16in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
17"But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
18I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
19"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live,

But we ALL know this Tim.

Umm.. could it be about choosing life, who is Christ, in this lifetime?

AND, that even as a Christian... one must still daily choose life?

I think maybe you're trying to say that there is no Life given after death? Hasn't this topic gone around and around in this thread already?

 

[timlamb]

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous Tim. Tavita has already pointed out one such excerpt from a preacher who most certainly believed hell to be a place of hideous torture along with others. If anything it's often the proponents of such an eternal place that accentuate the pain and suffering. It seems that now you even claim that nor all will 'gnash their teeth'? Why? If thats whats literally described and is what will supposedly happen then who are you to say that not everyone destined to the place will end up gnashing their teeth? This is pretty ironic. You don't like the idea that people are tortured in hell and yet it's still 'just' for people to suffer for eternity in some fashion and thats ok?? How is unending suffering in ANY form not torturous for the person enduring it? This is bizarre Tim....

Red, you are becomming increasingly rude and I will not respond to you any more. You flame me and end up reporting me for rudeness

Why do you find temporary torture even for years acceptable if torture is so disturbing to you? If it is wrong it is wrong for a minute or an eternity.

The scripture says "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" right? It doesn't say ALL will be doing those actions. I say that merely to point out that there will be different degrees of punishment as scripture points out.

You don't believe man would sin more without the threat of eternal punishment. You believe man will all one day turn gratefully to Jesus. You know nothing about human nature. We all push the law, driving three miles over the speed limit or "fudging" on our taxes, we all do something to the limits of the law. God's perfect law has strict limits and going beyond them makes us guilty. The distance from the best and worst man is barely a crack in the sidewalk. We are all capable of being bad. But the distance between, by comparison would be the Pacific Ocean, it is a span no man can reach. So you cannot compare what man thinks is acceptable punishment to what God knows we diserve.

We all diserve death, none are worthy. But you seem to feel ALL are worthy and no JUST loving God would leave anyone out. You have the picture completely turned around. It isn't that God comdemns the unfortunate, as you see it. It is that Jesus saves the few who will listen and see and hear and obey.

Without Jesus we ALL get the Lake of Fire, because we ALL diserve it.

I would be willing to bet there are more uni's who care more about making friends than saving souls, than there are Eternal Damnation believers who make light of the souls that will die in hell. I can hear someone crying because they were told they need forgiveness to stay our of hell, and the uni says: "Oh, don't worry sweetheart, bless your heart, nobody goes to hell!".

BELIEF IN UNIVERSAL SALVATION WILL LEAD MANY TO ETERNAL DAMNATION, BECAUSE THEY WILL NEVER REPENT, AND IN HELL IT IS TOO LATE!!!

Bye for now Red, LS, SS, I'm tired. I started at the beginning of this thread and am just tired of the rudeness from both sides. I got mad and said some things and I got my warnings for it because you guys aren't bashful about reporting.

I've quoted alot of scripture to you guys, I just wish you believed it.

 

[Tavita]

I've quoted alot of scripture to you guys, I just wish you believed it.

I'm sorry you're leaving, Tim.

But I'm not sorry we couldn't believe it for you.. again. You see, nearly all of us believed the scriptures the way you do, once. We had our eyes opened and repented of our views of Father God being THAT kind of God. I know I surely repented .. in tears, that I thought Father could be the opposite of what He expects us to be, and that I'd believed in the teachings of man on the subject.

Be blessed in your walk in Him.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I agree with Gort, I've never heard anyone who isn't a uni call it eteranl torture. I don't even believe everyone is gnashing their teath. It is a place of seperation from God, and that is all I know and that will be enough.

I wonder how you determine that it is seperation from God when the bible clearly states that it takes place in the presence of the lamb and the holy angels? Not to mention the fact that God is everywhere making it impossible to be anywhere which God is not.

Have you ever heard the parable of the fishes?

You paint a sorry picture of a just God with your stories of torture.

My stories of torture? I paint a picture of the god perceived by the teachings of eternal torment, such god should never be called just.

I know it will do no good to descuss different levels of punishment, nothing but heaven is acceptible to you.

As usual you are incorrect, Certianly there are different levels of punishment it would be unjust to punish someone who commited 1 minor infraction the same as one who commited many major infractions. be that as it may eternal punishment of any kind is unjust, cruel and pointless. the purpose of punishment is to correct. The purpose of endless punishment could only be revenge.

You just want to take out a personal attack on all who believe the word of God when it comes to Satan and the Lake of Fire. Go ahead, if it helps you sleep tonight!

It seems that you take any disagreement as personal even if it is not meant that way. The thing that I do not understand is why you think that it could ever be considered good to inflict eternal suffering on any creature regaurdless of the severity or the offense, can't you see that this is wrong? So wrong that all the evil ever done by the sum total of all men looks like a good deed in comparrison.

 

[red77]

Tim, just for the record I've not reported you or anyone else on this thread. I've not reported you at all for your information. I have reported another poster on here but it had zero to do with any contention regarding theology but rather for sickening mysoginy of which I'm sure we'd have been in agreement if the post was still there for us to see. That is the only post I have reported in 3 years on any forum so I'm sorry you think that of me. You are wrong.

 

[LightSeaker]

Tim, just for the record I've not reported you or anyone else on this thread.

I never have either...actually I've never reported anyone...ever

.

 

[red77]

I never have either...actually I've never reported anyone...ever

.

It's a last resort for me, and I've never done it in terms of debate no matter how heated it gets from a personal perspective. The post I reported had zero to do with any personal disagreement but was just an unutterably vile and gleeful description of women suffering and asking for it....
I've got too thick a skin to get that wound up by the type of debate on this thread. I prefer to hammer the subject out rather than cry 'foul'....

 

[LightSeaker]

I wonder how you determine that it is seperation from God when the bible clearly states that it takes place in the presence of the lamb and the holy angels?

I think that Genesis 1:27 AND Genesis 2:7 need to be looked at more. If our very essence is God breathed...that ought to say something major about God being an activity with in our soul. And what about that part of us that is created in God's image...did that just go away or something? I'm not thinking so.

I've never heard these verses explained away. They form the crux for why I'm a Universalist.

.

 

[A New Dawn]

I think that Genesis 1:27 AND Genesis 2:7 need to be looked at more. If our very essence is God breathed...that ought to say something major about God being an activity with in our soul. And what about that part of us that is created in God's image...did that just go away or something? I'm not thinking so.

I've never heard these verses explained away. They form the crux for why I'm a Universalist.

.

They don't need to be explained away, they just need to be taken into consideration with the whole rest of the Bible, which states that man is in a fallen state since the fall, and without his sins being covered by a perfect sacrifice, man will not be able to enter back into God's presence.

 

[LightSeaker]

They don't need to be explained away, they just need to be taken into consideration with the whole rest of the Bible, which states that man is in a fallen state since the fall, and without his sins being covered by a perfect sacrifice, man will not be able to enter back into God's presence.

Fallen maybe...but with a soul as an activity of God, because it's God breathed, means having a soul that is not seperated from God. God has no limits to His reach. He's everywhere...He is Universal!!

.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Man has never left his presence, we are not in the garden, we are not in heaven but the kingdom of God is within and without. It is all around us. God is not just in some far off place he is everywhere you look. There is no escaping his presence.

Question: If man can not enter into the presence of God without the sacrifice of Jesus how is it that Jesus dwelt among us before the sacrifice was made?