Universalism

[HighwayMan]

54 pages. Just out of curiosity - has anyone changed their mind over anything yet?

 

[timlamb]

54 pages. Just out of curiosity - has anyone changed their mind over anything yet?

If one visitor has been kept from being decieved my time has been well used. The fact alone that my confidence in the truth of scriptures grow with each page of the debate makes my time well spent. Anything that gets me into the Word of God is time well spent.

I have become more certain, thankyou for asking. Tim

 

[heavensprings]

54 pages. Just out of curiosity - has anyone changed their mind over anything yet?

I don't expect anyone's mind can be changed unless God opens the eyes/mind and gives revelation. In these types of discussions it rarely happens, but I have seen it done, and heard a few testimony's of those who were 'converted' from the doctrine of eternal torment to believing in God's Restoration of All Things.

It's a ton of fun though!!

 

[preistsplace]

hmm and to me It is worth it if just one person who felt held back from coming to God by the gross contrafiction in the partialist theology comes to him here then my time here is well spent.(be it well noted however that God is the one who leads people to Him..just that he sometimes uses threads like this to do it)

 

[preistsplace]

You waste my time...the question is impertinent.

Mr Lamb,
I take that to mean that you do not have an answer to the Question , or the answer you have does not help your case.

 

[Tissue]

I don't think anyone has changed their minds; at least, not that I've seen. I have been challenged, however, and have re-worked the theory behind a few of my beliefs to make it more consistent.

As far as CF conversations (lectures? arguments?) go, this one's not so bad.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Et doctorines tell us that God will return infinite evil for any evil.

Jesus tells us that we are to be like God and not return evil for evil.

Which should we believe ET or Jesus?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

54 pages. Just out of curiosity - has anyone changed their mind over anything yet?

Good question.
After so many pages, can anyone boil it down to one Post the main disagreement/agreement on this topic?

 

[Tissue]

The One Side: You over-emphasize God's love. Not only is he loving, but he is just and holy. The Bible speaks of a never-ending hell. Just because God does not fit your pre-established notion of what love is does not mean that eternal hell does not exist.

The Other Side: You under-emphasize God's love. His love is infinite and knows no bounds. The Bible speaks of a God who wills that all should be saved. Why is God unable to save all? Why can Jesus' sacrifice not be accepted after death?

 

[LightSeaker]

My take:
One side limits Jesus Christ as they put Him into a bottle of limited reach in Love and Forgiveness.

The other side frees Jesus Christ with infinite reach of His Love and Forgiveness.

For me, this discussion has been extremely useful.

.

 

[LightSeaker]

you realize that the first commandment is to love God with all of your heart and soul?

You do also realize that very few actually do explore the depths of what it means to love God with all of ones Heart and Soul? It's mostly the mystics that do.

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[A New Dawn]

You do also realize that very few actually do explore the depths of what it means to love God with all of ones Heart and Soul? It's mostly the mystics that do.

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I don't think this is true in the least. It might be your opinion, but I doubt it is a well-researched opinion.

 

[timlamb]

Et doctorines tell us that God will return infinite evil for any evil.

Jesus tells us that we are to be like God and not return evil for evil.

Which should we believe ET or Jesus?

This is wrong! Scripture teaches us to be Christ-like, but it specifies we are not to judge because that is God's prerogitive, and God's alone to administer.

As for the difference between, I think it lies in the overestimation of the heart of man. Most reasonable et's and uni's believe there is punishment and that man must ulimately decide. Dispite the lack of evidence for this to take place after physical death there is still debate. One side sees no evidence that man would ever have a sincere change once judged. Uni's seem to hold the the idea that faced with punishment men will change their ways and come to faith and accept salvation.

Scripture teaches us over and over that mens hearts become hardened against God and only the sheep that belong to the Shepard will come to His voice. And the fact that only those who chose become children of God (John 1), the rest will never know God as Father.

As I see it, the difference, though our theologies differ greatly, is in our belief in man, not our belief in God. That all men are worthy of God's love requires a faith that I do not have. It being a faith in the will of man and no challenge to faith in the will of God.

The question of whether God would allow man to chose self destruction is another point that comes up but ultimately it matters whether man would eventually make the right choice even given eternity to do so.

 

[timlamb]

Mr Lamb,
I take that to mean that you do not have an answer to the Question , or the answer you have does not help your case.

Show me that this question is rellevent to my post and I'll try to answer it. I admit, it is not an easy question for me because i do not study the Law of Moses because it does not apply to the gentiles.

I see this as merely an attempt to side track the meaning of the verse I quoted. You have made your point so if you have nothing further please drop it. Will someone else address my post from Deuteronomy 30.

Would others like to respond to this, I hope:
I found this amazing verse. The OT is full of foreshadowing, where something really happens but is also a fore telling of future events. This from Deuteronomy 30 is the salvation story in a nutshell:

11"For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12"It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
13"Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
14"But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. Choose Life

15"See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

16in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
17"But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
18I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
19"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."

​

Chose life this day, that you may live in the Land God promised.

 

[Soul Searcher]

This is wrong! Scripture teaches us to be Christ-like, but it specifies we are not to judge because that is God's prerogitive, and God's alone to administer.

Read the semon on the mount, Jesus goes through a list of things we are to do and then that we are to be like the father [or at least give it our best effort] If God returns evil for evil would he ask us to do otherwise to be like him?

 

[timlamb]

Read the semon on the mount, Jesus goes through a list of things we are to do and then that we are to be like the father [or at least give it our best effort] If God returns evil for evil would he ask us to do otherwise to be like him?

I guess that would depend on whether you call God's wrath evil or not! I think God would prefer the word Justice.
Luke 21:22
because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

Romans 12:19
Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, " VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.

Hebrews 10:30
For we know Him who said, " VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY " And again, " THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."

 

[LightSeaker]

Read the semon on the mount, Jesus goes through a list of things we are to do and then that we are to be like the father [or at least give it our best effort] If God returns evil for evil would he ask us to do otherwise to be like him?

I’ve never understood why the Sermon on the Mount is not really taught. Yes, it’s touched upon occasionally…but not really taught the way it should be. The thing is, those teachings were so important to Jesus Christ that He gave the Sermon on the Mount as His Magna Carta of the Kingdom of God.


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[LightSeaker]

It’s so interesting to me in what one takes from Biblical verse. Where tim sees lessons on Vengeance...I see lessons on Love and of the power of Love and of the spiritual position we should take with other human beings.

Romans 12:19
Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, " VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
."

I think this verse needs to be brought to the light of Love by looking at the whole contents. What it’s really about is how we need to love others…regardless of what we think of them. It is not given as a lesson on the Vengeance of God.

It’s rather lovely in how we are instructed to treat others. Here’s the lesson in full: Romans 12:9-21.

Love
9Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.
10Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.
11Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord.
12Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer.
13Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.
15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn.
16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.
17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.
18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"says the Lord.
20On the contrary:

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."

21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[Soul Searcher]

The sermon on the mount is the most moving part of the bible for me by a long shot. There is much that can be learned from that sermon.

Tim; Remember the context of the sermon, Jesus was saying that we should not take an eye for an eye even though that is what had been taught it is wrong, that is returning an evil for an evil. This and all the other stuff is what he is talking about when he says be like the father who is perfect.

One major problem with many theologies especially the ones which teach eternal torment is that they hold man to a higher standard than God. If man exacts revenge it is evil if God does so it is glorious that is unless you happen to be the victim. I wonder how fast the opinion would change if those who preach this doctorine found that they were on the receiving end of this so called justice. Would it still be just or would it suddenly become evil?

God has the power to save anyone and everyone at any time he chooses, we are powerless to save anything at all. It is not us who will decide it is he who knows all and loves all and we can trust that he will do the right thing. Torturing people for eternity is clearly not the right thing and anyone who thinks such a thing is just surely has no idea what it means to be just.

 

[timlamb]

I’ve never understood why the Sermon on the Mount is not really taught. Yes, it’s touched upon occasionally…but not really taught the way it should be. The thing is, those teachings were so important to Jesus Christ that He gave the Sermon on the Mount as His Magna Carta of the Kingdom of God.


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He did not, We have set it up as the difinative text of Christianity.

It definately teaches us much of the Kingdom and how we should behave, but it isn't in all the Gospels. The thing is no one will understand that teaching until that have accepted Jesus and can be taught it by the Spirit within. There are many good servons on it but for the most part it is preaching to the choir. It is essential teaching but is learned young and there is more and deeper teaching about the kingdom for those who have matured.