Universalism

[preistsplace]

I will say that the Book of Revelations is symbolic, and you cannot expect a book to speak in symbolism for 19 chapters and then jump to being a literal account.

 

[EyezOFire]

I think to argue this back and forth is really pointless. Because when it boils down, none of us here on this forum will make the decision about who stays or goes. All we can do is hold to our convictions until God shows us other wise. While the Bible I believe is perfect, the translators were not perfect and key words such as Aion which literally means "age" were translated as eternal, forever.

I would have to say IMO- that the Bible itself has more scriptures that point to Universal Reconciliation, and the heart of the Father rather than the doctrine of everlasting punishment. To me, that actually diminishes God's victory over death. I think there have been proably about 165 billion people who have lived on earth since Adam- maybe more, and since 2000 years maybe about 10 billion of those were Christians.. So that leaves about 155 billion people burning in hell forever and ever, some have never heard of Jesus or the Gospel. But yet since they never heard a chance to hear the good news they are automatically sent to hell.. Now How is that just or fair ? Also He's rescued 10 billion out of 165 billion leaving 155 billions gone for good, that's a rather small victory. What gives God more glory saving 10 billion or saving them all ?

This also brings into question the nature of God- How could a God of love, watch 155 billion of his creation whom He loves dearly, perish forever. He is omnipresent so technically He is able to be in hell both and in heaven, meaning if a portion of Him is in hell, God would contantly be subjected to fact of having to see day in and day out his 155 billion of His creation whom He loves, subjected to fires hearing their screams, cries, and pleas forever. I think it would absolutley break His heart.. But you say they didnt choose Jesus, they deserve it, maybe so, but it's still people that God loves and will always love. I'm sure it would affect God and sadden Him. You may say Well in Hell God wants nothing to do with them, so He's made his decision. Yet He would still be there and would be subjected to there cries and pleas. That would mean God would shut down a portion of his heart towards them, which would make God, cold and callious and is that really love to ignore someone while they are being tortured ?

So that would put God at being helpless to save them, because they have damned themselves. If God's desire is to save all men through Christ, then is mans will (the ability to damn himself) greater than Gods will to save? Who's bigger and stronger man or God ?

Eph 1:9-11 says "Having made known to us the mystery of his will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself , that in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth- in Him who works all things according to the counsel of His Will

The Bible says that we are all born sinners, and the current line of thought teaches unless one accepts Jesus into the heart you cannot be saved. but yet thousands of infants die daily and millions have died who couldnt even speak the sinners prayer much less let alone pray or have a heart conversion. It is passed off as they get a automatic pass into heaven because they are babies. The Bible does not teach this at all. So man came to their own conclusion that God allows them in because of his love for them, mercy and goodness. But following the current line of thought, shouldnt all those babies be burning in hell forever, because techniacally they did not repeat a sinners prayer and accept Jesus in their heart ? And technically they are born sinners. So is this another way to salvation ? I dont believe there is, but rather this points to the goodness of God and the nature of the Father and his heart towards all men.

 

[preistsplace]

And those without faith?

will be shown, and go through the purifying fire of God.

 

[heavensprings]

Wow, you quote it after condemning it to nothing but useless allegory!

Yes, much of it is portrayed in the OT but the symbolism is quite effective and the message easily understood if you understood the OT.

The first three chapters are litteral but also reflect the church through the ages, so they become prophetic. The book is entirely prophetic of the end times and the end of this age. The Woman riding the Beast requires some understanding of the sybolism, but chapter 21 is no poetic verse or immagery. John was taking dictation, "write this down...these words are faithful and true" Some places in the book John is trying to describe what he sees and immagery is all he has, thought his choice of symbols is Spirit inspired. But from 21 on it is a conversation and you have no excuse for changing the meaning except to suit your needs.

Tim, you're a very confusing person. One minute you scoff at me for believing Revelation to be symbolic and should not be taken literally, the next you're telling me it's symbolic and prophetic...

As preistsplace said.. how can you take 99% of Revelation to be prophetic and symbolic and then change it to a literal 'conversation'? That's a new one on me.

What you have given me is YOUR opinion of Rev 21, not the majority of christian opinion. I did a search this afternoon on what the majority of the Christian ORTHODOX churches believe... and they're all different. AND there were quite a good number who believed it to be 100% symbolic. And of course it's prophetic... that goes without saying. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy... and the book is called the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[Soul Searcher]

If revelation is to be taken literally then I wonder what you think of the verse that says he saw the smoke going up forever and ever? Is this literal or does it simply mean a lot of smoke? Before you answer remember this was a vision that lasted only a short while. Yet this is one of the verses often used to support eternal hell fire by taking something literally that logically can not be literal.

btw if he literally saw anything forever it would never have been written down as he would still be watching.

Every image that John describes is a symbol and NONE should be taken literalty. This was a vision and he was to write what he saw. He certianly did not see anything forever.

 

[LJSGM]

I for one haven't studied revelation enough, so, right now I think it mostly symbolic and sometimes literal, such as the second death, ect.

I do know that the part where it says "The beast will be tortured day and night, forever and ever" is symbolic because the beast is symbolic. Also there would be no "day and night" in hell, it is an expression of something continuous and is not literal, so, therefore, forever and ever, which I think means "ages unto ages" is just an expression of a long time perhaps.

 

[timlamb]

I will say that the Book of Revelations is symbolic, and you cannot expect a book to speak in symbolism for 19 chapters and then jump to being a literal account.

First, like Nadiine said, Revelation is written of past present and future. The churches are warned of their past offences and encouraged and in some cases rebuked. Beginning with chapter four John is catapolted into the future, he sees the wrath, the wars and the return of Christ. He sees things he has no idea how to describe so He uses symbolism. He also sees things that constant symbols through out scripture, such as Christ the crusified Lamb and the Lion of Judah. By chapter 19 things begin to come back to things John understands and by chapter 20 he is quoting dialogue.

When people get over their fear of wrath and study the book it really is amazing and it holds the hope through the promise that believers are spared and perservering through tribulation brings reward, and there IS promised place that Jesus said He would prepare for us. In chapter 21 they even get down to the measurements of the new Jerusalam, it's really amazing.

 

[LightSeaker]

faith is the same whether you have faith or not

Wake up! Wake up! You must be dreaming or delusional

In the end, the results are the same. I'm neither dreaming or delusional...unless you are calling living in the presence of Jesus Christ as such.

.

 

[preistsplace]

God, or a parent, would only be cruel if they forced a person to love them. God sometimes works through tribulations, just like a parent, but some decide on their own not to listen. God has revealed Himself not just in scripture but also in nature. The people that reject God's love are without excuse. God would actually be a pretty bad parent if He condoned (without punishment) the bad actions of His children, don't you think?

Let me ask you, why would God force His love on those that do not want to love Him?

Just a reminder most of us beleive in punishment and the point where we disagree with you is the duration of the punishment
you say never ending
we say ending

 

[gort]

I think to argue this back and forth is really pointless. Because when it boils down, none of us here on this forum will make the decision about who stays or goes. All we can do is hold to our convictions until God shows us other wise. While the Bible I believe is perfect, the translators were not perfect and key words such as Aion which literally means "age" were translated as eternal, forever.

You're right, none of us will make the decision, but what the word of God has to say is still true. There is an eternal lake of fire that awaits those who reject God and His salvation. THere are far too many greek scholars who would disagree with your interpretation of aion. Aion is also descriptive of God and it is most difficult to ascribe your interpretation of "age" to the eternal God.

I would have to say IMO- that the Bible itself has more scriptures that point to Universal Reconciliation, and the heart of the Father rather than the doctrine of everlasting punishment. To me, that actually diminishes God's victory over death.

THere are no scriptures at all that point to all peoples being saved by Christ. Salvation is dependent upon repentance and faith in Christ. However, salvation is universal in that it is an open invitation to all peoples. Will all accept? No.

I think there have been proably about 165 billion people who have lived on earth since Adam- maybe more, and since 2000 years maybe about 10 billion of those were Christians.. So that leaves about 155 billion people burning in hell forever and ever, some have never heard of Jesus or the Gospel. But yet since they never heard a chance to hear the good news they are automatically sent to hell.. Now How is that just or fair ? Also He's rescued 10 billion out of 165 billion leaving 155 billions gone for good, that's a rather small victory. What gives God more glory saving 10 billion or saving them all ?

Excuse me, but here's the part where you're talking out your heiney. You don't have all seeing eyes and know everything that is going on in the world. You have no idea who has accepted Christ and who has'nt. You might be surprised to find that more people have already heard and rejected God. You might find that everyone in your town has heard the good news. Everyone in America has prolly heard the good news. Perhaps everyone in the world today has heard of Jesus and salvation.

This also brings into question the nature of God- How could a God of love, watch 155 billion of his creation whom He loves dearly, perish forever. He is omnipresent so technically He is able to be in hell both and in heaven, meaning if a portion of Him is in hell, God would contantly be subjected to fact of having to see day in and day out his 155 billion of His creation whom He loves, subjected to fires hearing their screams, cries, and pleas forever.

The nature of GOd also includes Justice. As Justice was served by Jesus on the Cross and the invitation to salvation is open to all, a rejection of such an invitation only leaves an eternal punishment to such.

I think it would absolutley break His heart.. But you say they didnt choose Jesus, they deserve it, maybe so, but it's still people that God loves and will always love. I'm sure it would affect God and sadden Him. You may say Well in Hell God wants nothing to do with them, so He's made his decision. Yet He would still be there and would be subjected to there cries and pleas. That would mean God would shut down a portion of his heart towards them, which would make God, cold and callious and is that really love to ignore someone while they are being tortured ?

You're judging God and doing so erroneusly. You might want to focus on how God put sin upon His beloved Son and punished Jesus for our sins. I would think that God has gone to great lengths to save man, yes? And I certainly think that God is working 24/7 to save man today.

So that would put God at being helpless to save them, because they have damned themselves. If God's desire is to save all men through Christ, then is mans will (the ability to damn himself) greater than Gods will to save? Who's bigger and stronger man or God ?

This is a false dilemna.

Eph 1:9-11 says "Having made known to us the mystery of his will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself , that in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth- in Him who works all things according to the counsel of His Will

The Bible says that we are all born sinners, and the current line of thought teaches unless one accepts Jesus into the heart you cannot be saved. but yet thousands of infants die daily and millions have died who couldnt even speak the sinners prayer much less let alone pray or have a heart conversion. It is passed off as they get a automatic pass into heaven because they are babies. The Bible does not teach this at all. So man came to their own conclusion that God allows them in because of his love for them, mercy and goodness. But following the current line of thought, shouldnt all those babies be burning in hell forever, because techniacally they did not repeat a sinners prayer and accept Jesus in their heart ? And technically they are born sinners. So is this another way to salvation ? I dont believe there is, but rather this points to the goodness of God and the nature of the Father and his heart towards all men.

The scriptures are silent concerning infants and such. Neither do we know the fate of the proverbial man on a deserted island who really never heard about Jesus. What shall we do? Make judgements on GOd because of technicalities or judgements in lieu of God who said that only on the name of Jesus by faith can man be saved?

Do you really think the man on the deserted island who really never heard of Jesus is being ignored by God?

 

[red77]

First, like Nadiine said, Revelation is written of past present and future. The churches are warned of their past offences and encouraged and in some cases rebuked. Beginning with chapter four John is catapolted into the future, he sees the wrath, the wars and the return of Christ. He sees things he has no idea how to describe so He uses symbolism. He also sees things that constant symbols through out scripture, such as Christ the crusified Lamb and the Lion of Judah. By chapter 19 things begin to come back to things John understands and by chapter 20 he is quoting dialogue.

When people get over their fear of wrath and study the book it really is amazing and it holds the hope through the promise that believers are spared and perservering through tribulation brings reward, and there IS promised place that Jesus said He would prepare for us. In chapter 21 they even get down to the measurements of the new Jerusalam, it's really amazing.

What it seems to come down to is that it's 'amazing' as long as it's only believers that are spared from this eternal wrath.

 

[gort]

Just a reminder most of us beleive in punishment and the point where we disagree with you is the duration of the punishment
you say never ending
we say ending

Are your sins before a Holy God worth an eternity in fire? Or are your sins not grievous enough for that?

 

[LJSGM]

Are your sins before a Holy God worth an eternity in fire? Or are your sins not grievous enough for that?

I would have to say no to that one....

 

[LightSeaker]

Are your sins before a Holy God worth an eternity in fire?

God is way too Holy and Loving and Forgiving and Compassionate to stoop that low.

.

 

[LJSGM]

Not only that, but the bible says the wages of sin is death, not everlasting torture.

If it were everlasting torture, then Jesus would be in hell right now paying our "wages."

 

[red77]

You're right, none of us will make the decision, but what the word of God has to say is still true. There is an eternal lake of fire that awaits those who reject God and His salvation. THere are far too many greek scholars who would disagree with your interpretation of aion. Aion is also descriptive of God and it is most difficult to ascribe your interpretation of "age" to the eternal God.

I know this wasn't addressed to me personally but I'll add my two cents if ok.
The early church didn't garner the present doctrine from the original texts. What is "mainstream" thought in the present day certainly wasn't centuries ago. Prior to Augustine and the early RCC eternal suffering was a minority held view. Do you believe the lake of fire to be literal?

THere are no scriptures at all that point to all peoples being saved by Christ. Salvation is dependent upon repentance and faith in Christ. However, salvation is universal in that it is an open invitation to all peoples. Will all accept? No.

Erm, there's been several posted all over the thread...

Tim 4:10 God is the saviour of ALL men, especially of believers

Excuse me, but here's the part where you're talking out your heiney. You don't have all seeing eyes and know everything that is going on in the world. You have no idea who has accepted Christ and who has'nt. You might be surprised to find that more people have already heard and rejected God. You might find that everyone in your town has heard the good news. Everyone in America has prolly heard the good news. Perhaps everyone in the world today has heard of Jesus and salvation.

It's usually generally accepted that the majority of the world don't believe, or at least in terms of whats required to be "saved". There may not be the exact details in terms of percentages but it wasn't exactly total rubbish

The nature of GOd also includes Justice. As Justice was served by Jesus on the Cross and the invitation to salvation is open to all, a rejection of such an invitation only leaves an eternal punishment to such.

Ah, justice. The idea that it would be injust for God to do anything other.
Thats a human ideal which actually dictates what God must do.

You're judging God and doing so erroneusly. You might want to focus on how God put sin upon His beloved Son and punished Jesus for our sins. I would think that God has gone to great lengths to save man, yes? And I certainly think that God is working 24/7 to save man today.

Except the one sin that supposedly sends people to eternal suffering is the one that couldn't be covered by the sacrifice, unbelief.

This is a false dilemna.

In what way? Either mans will is stronger than God's or it isn't.

The scriptures are silent concerning infants and such. Neither do we know the fate of the proverbial man on a deserted island who really never heard about Jesus. What shall we do? Make judgements on GOd because of technicalities or judgements in lieu of God who said that only on the name of Jesus by faith can man be saved?

Do you really think the man on the deserted island who really never heard of Jesus is being ignored by God?

[/quote]

It's the reason they're silent thats under speculation. Many christians believe that it would be injust of God to punish infants for they have no knowledge of good or evil. Others (Such as augustine) believe that they're bound to hell because they haven't done what is required to be saved. the fact that they're unable is irrelevant. It's not actually a problem for the universalist position because if all are reconciled then obviouly this includes infants as well. Furthermore if the bible is correct when it comes to the restoration of all then there would be no need to mention infants.

 

[red77]

Are your sins before a Holy God worth an eternity in fire? Or are your sins not grievous enough for that?

I don't think so, nor those of anyone else. Nobody deserves to be in agonizing unending pain that goes on ad finitum. There's certainly no love in such a scenario which is apparently what God IS.

 

[red77]

Gee, you think my dog will be reconciled to God?

Convienent how those who take nothing litterally take scripture quite seriously when it can be read to support their desires.

Why not? It's part of God's creation isn't it? The fact is there's no reason to read things into the verses that speak of reconciliation or restoration. How can they be construed as being symbolic? The notion that 'uni's take nothing literally is an outright strawman anyway. When it comes to chapters such as Revelation it's apparent that most Christians view it as symbolic and many have differing interpretations as well. It's just as convenient for you to deny these verses because they don't fit in with the idea that people suffer for ever if they're actually true.

 

[LightSeaker]

Gee, you think my dog will be reconciled to God?

With out a doubt...YES!!!

.

 

[red77]

LOL!!!! The 'out of context" argument is very true. Just because you don't like it does not make it not true. If you have a counter argument to my post then lets hear it.

It isn't true at all. It isn't a question of "not liking it". Anyone can say that people 'cherry pick' verses or take them out of context but the fact is you haven't even shown how this is supposedly being done. How is anything being taken out of context in the verses that testify to the reconciliation and restoration of all things? You explain that and you might have a debate thats worth addressing

BTW- The love your child argument is a cop out *yawn*.
I have this picture in my head of a bunch of atheist kicking and screaming in heaven.lol!!!

As others have since pointed out love doesn't work in the kind of forced manner which you depict. Do you honestly think that all atheists and agnostics etc would rebel against love and the truth of existence once it was there in front of them. Is the love and power of God too weak to change people from within? I wonder whether Saul would have been able to continue his 'merry old way' after the road to Damascus