Universalism

[Hentenza]

Oh not this lame 'out of context' copout again *yawn*. That is just a tired non argument. In regards to 'forced love' then any time you forcefully protect your child from harm then you are forcing your love on the child. Does that mean you should just let them wander into an open fire or dangerous place because it would be unloving to coerce them away from danger? People force their love on people all the time so as an argument it's moot.

LOL!!!! The 'out of context" argument is very true. Just because you don't like it does not make it not true. If you have a counter argument to my post then lets hear it.

BTW- The love your child argument is a cop out *yawn*.
I have this picture in my head of a bunch of atheist kicking and screaming in heaven.lol!!!

 

[LightSeaker]

Universalism is nothing more than a human illusion based on the ideal that anyone regardless of belief will be saved.

To me, the word "save" in the context that you use it is the same as the word "Love". They are interchangeable. It's not an illusion that God Loves all, regardless of their beliefs.

God loves humanity an He will not be forcing anyone to love Him. Forced love is no love at all.

More than any creature of God's creation, the Human Being is made to respond to Love above all others. As such, no force will be necessary.

I have images in my head of atheist children happily smiling, playing and living a joyful life in Heaven with God.

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[timlamb]

Lightseeker said: "we are told straight up by Jesus Christ that we can't even be saved unless we ARE helping the poor and those in need."

So you ARE a follower of the law, amazing.

Salvation cannot be earned by deeds, it is a gift recieved by faith alone!

 

[preistsplace]

Actually God choice was to condemn everyone. None seek God, not one (Romans 3). But the Lord dispensed His grace and sent His only begotten son so that those that believe could be saved (John 3:16). So how do we accept the free gift and are justified? Paul told us. We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1). If anyone doesn't have faith then they are not justified. Justification means being judicially found righteous by God. Without faith no one is justified and those that are not justified live in their sin. Those that live in their sin and are not born again will not inherit the kingdom of God. (John 3:5).





No it doesn't. You seem to want to cheery pick the verses. Here is the verse that you decided was not relevant.

1 Ti 4:6

6 If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.

Words of faith. Faith is what it is needed. No faith, no salvation. God gave men the ultimate free gift. He paroled humanity with the condition of faith. That's it.

All of the verses that universalists use to support universal reconciliation are taken out of context and then, other verses that do not support it are dismissed or ignored. Universalism is nothing more than a human illusion based on the ideal that anyone regardless of belief will be saved. God loves humanity an He will not be forcing anyone to love Him. Forced love is no love at all.

Love is not forced it is a point that we come to after seeing how hopeless we are and how pure God is. And perhaps you could directly address the verse which I quoted .

 

[timlamb]

I don't get 'all hung up' on anything Tim. I merely quote the verse that says that ultimately God has everything worked out. That doesn't mean that everything is going to be perfect in this world, why should it? God's purpose speaks of reconciling all creation to Himself which is completely compatible with scripture. I don't pretend to know everything inside and out as only God would know how this plays out. What i don't need to do is make out that 'all things being reconciled' means 'some' or 'a few' in order to be compatible with a doctrine

Gee, you think my dog will be reconciled to God?

Convienent how those who take nothing litterally take scripture quite seriously when it can be read to support their desires.

 

[preistsplace]

So you ARE a follower of the law, amazing.

Salvation cannot be earned by deeds, it is a gift recieved by faith alone!

salvation is not earned by deeds but your faith is shown by your fruit. The salvation is an act of God ,the faith shown by works the proof that God has sown .

 

[preistsplace]

He is able and willing but unfortunately some are not willing. It easy. All they have to do is believe.

so then salvation comes from mans willingness to be saved?Salvation is not of works so no man can boast.

 

[LJSGM]

Luke 8:18
Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken from him."

 

[LJSGM]

so then salvation comes from mans willingness to be saved?Salvation is not of works so no man can boast.

Faith is not a work... at least according to scriptures

 

[LightSeaker]

Faith is not a work... at least according to scriptures

I don't know about that. Sometimes Faith takes a LOT of work. There is so much around to test it.

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[preistsplace]

These verses obviously refer to the new Heaven and new earth. Yes, all the eath and mankind will be restored to it's origional righteousness and thus God will be reconciled to it. But, just as the earth will be destroied by fire so the wicked and non-believing will be destroid in the Lake of Fire so that God may be glorified in His creation.

Think about it, why would heaven need to be restored except that it was defiled by unrighteousness, when Satan fell. Remember, this Reconciliation takes place AFTER the Great White Throne Judgement. Satan and those who's names are not in the book of life and death are all in the Lake of Fire, and the rest, ie heaven and earth, are restored or reconciled.

See it is easy when the verse is in context!

here i will point out your beleif that the wicked will be destroyed in the lake of fire is not conducive to eternal torment, and to me sounds alot more like anniahlationism.
And while I agree with your timing I disagree that the wicked will still be being tormented/ separated.

 

[LightSeaker]

So you ARE a follower of the law, amazing.

Salvation cannot be earned by deeds, it is a gift recieved by faith alone!

If that law is Love....yes.

What is the will of God?…that’s what I was responding to. And in my response I came up with a much different answer than you. The deeds are important, yes. But what’s REALLY important is what’s in ones heart and soul while helping the poor and those in need. Laws? I kind of think that Jesus Christ might be much better choice. Again we are back to the Living God and what it means to live IN Jesus Christ. Jesus seems to imply that those who do live in Him do help the poor and those in need. That's something He says that He looks for in judging who gets saved. There is much to be said about the Love and Compassion and Loving Forgiveness of our Lord Jesus Christ and what happens to our own soul when we truly do live in Him. Did someone around here say "Presence" of God?

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[heavensprings]

Here is conclusive truth that not all get eternal life. Some, I won't argue the number but scripture says it is high, will suffer the second death which is the Lake of Fire and will NOT recieve life. John here is witnessing ALL things being made new because the old is passed away, yet still some don't get life.
Revelation 21:1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." 9One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

This is one of the passages that Universalists study A LOT!

First of all I hope you realize Revelation is a book of symbols, and is not to be taken literally. This revelation was given to John while he was in the Spirit, much like the visions we get while we are in the Spirit. And we cannot take the visions we see as being literal. They point to a greater truth, and that is what symbology means... something is given to show you a greater truth.

It is also necessary to learn what the symbology of Revelation means from throughout the whole Bible. (CLV) "knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation." Which means of course that one verse of scripture must line up with others. One verse or the meaning of a verse/passage must become apparent in other parts of the scriptures.

So therefore, we take things like the fire of God, and look at what that means through the rest of scripture. We take the bride, the throne, the second death, Jerusalem, the Kingdom of God (and where it is) etc, and study them to see what they mean. We take the cowardly, unbelieving, vile, etc, and study the origins and why people are this way... for example, we see these things are of the flesh, and because we study the fire of God, and we study the flesh of man, we see that it is the flesh of man that gets burned up and consumed, not the man himself. btw... this process starts in this lifetime.

We also see that nowhere does it say that anyone stays in the fire endlessly.

Personally, I believe the book of Revelation to be about Jesus Christ Himself and is not necessarily a book to show us things to come in a literal worldy sense (some.. preterists, believe it's all been fulfilled). It is the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ and takes place within each one of us. It is about the Kingdom... which is within. It is about receiving the revelation of Christ within.

I could go deeper, but I don't believe you will even accept this offering. One must operate in the Spirit to understand the things of the Spirit, not with the carnal mind.

So, the cowardly, the unbelieving, etc, etc.... will have the flesh destroyed in the Lake of Fire which is God Himself.. and His Word, which is as fire... and when WE have been cleansed of the filthy flesh we will therefore be fit for the Kingdom of God. Remember, those gates are open for the elect to go in and out of... what for? I believe to minister to those who are going through the fire of God's Word in their lives.. the destruction of the flesh. This can happen on so many levels, in so many seasons and times, that it can boggle the mind. Revelation is not a book that shows events in chronological time... much of it takes place outside of time, and within you and me... in the Spirit.

 

[timlamb]

salvation is not earned by deeds but your faith is shown by your fruit. The salvation is an act of God ,the faith shown by works the proof that God has sown .

And those without faith?

 

[LightSeaker]

And those without faith?

It is the same.

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[timlamb]

Heavensprings said: First of all I hope you realize Revelation is a book of symbols, and is not to be taken literally.

How convenient!

what a joke, if it doesn't work, it must be sybolic

And we cannot take the visions we see as being literal. They point to a greater truth,

Yeah, right!

So how is THIS sybolic?
5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

You are wating my time.

 

[timlamb]

It is the same.

.

faith is the same whether you have faith or not

Wake up! Wake up! You must be dreaming or delusional

 

[heavensprings]

How convenient!

what a joke, if it doesn't work, it must be sybolic

Yeah, right!

So how is THIS sybolic?
5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

You are wating my time.

And you are wasting my time. You come into an Unorthdox forum to ask questions then shove your brand of truth down the unorthodox neck, and then say we're wasting your time?... what a joke..

Rev 1:1 The Unveiling of >>>> Jesus Christ, which God gives to Him, to show to His slaves what must occur swiftly; and He signifies it, dispatching through His messenger to His slave John,

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit ... on the Lord's Day and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet

Wake up, sir!!

For anyone else who is interested...
Most of the book is rooted in the symbology of the Old Testament. You will find there the temple, the sacrifices, the worshippers, the ark of the covenant, the candlestick, the city Jerusalem, mount Zion, the prophets, the priesthood, the king and the throne, the archangel, the serpent, trumpets, feasts, and many more. Now by the spirit of wisdom and revelation all these things begin to relate to your experience, your life, and your walk in God.

 

[timlamb]

And you are wasting my time. You come into an Unorthdox forum to ask questions then shove your brand of truth down the unorthodox neck, and then say we're wasting your time?... what a joke..

Rev 1:1 The Unveiling of >>>> Jesus Christ, which God gives to Him, to show to His slaves what must occur swiftly; and He signifies it, dispatching through His messenger to His slave John,

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit ... on the Lord's Day and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet

Wake up, sir!!

For anyone else who is interested...
Most of the book is rooted in the symbology of the Old Testament. You will find there the temple, the sacrifices, the worshippers, the ark of the covenant, the candlestick, the city Jerusalem, mount Zion, the prophets, the priesthood, the king and the throne, the archangel, the serpent, trumpets, feasts, and many more. Now by the spirit of wisdom and revelation all these things begin to relate to your experience, your life, and your walk in God.

Wow, you quote it after condemning it to nothing but useless allegory!

Yes, much of it is portrayed in the OT but the symbolism is quite effective and the message easily understood if you understood the OT.

The first three chapters are litteral but also reflect the church through the ages, so they become prophetic. The book is entirely prophetic of the end times and the end of this age. The Woman riding the Beast requires some understanding of the sybolism, but chapter 21 is no poetic verse or immagery. John was taking dictation, "write this down...these words are faithful and true" Some places in the book John is trying to describe what he sees and immagery is all he has, thought his choice of symbols is Spirit inspired. But from 21 on it is a conversation and you have no excuse for changing the meaning except to suit your needs.

 

[Nadiine]

I'll make a note on this hypothesis that Revelation is ALL
allegory -
2 things make that a falsity by way of facts in the backdrop
of Revelation:

1) Rev. 1 gives you the format of the book -
17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man
And He placed His right hand on me, saying,
Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,

18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore,
and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
19"Therefore write the things which you have seen,
and the things which are,
and the things which will take place after these things.

The book is being written in TIMELINE FORM -
Past, Present, Future;
Therefore, it is actually all literal - but symbolisms are used to describe some events. So we cannot just write the entire book off to
useless allegory that means nothing to anybody in any
defineable sense.
That's just a falsity and usually a cop out by people who
don't really like the book or want to deal with it honestly.

2). It's the ONLY book with a blessing and a curse given
for it.
The reader is given a blessing for reading it, and a curse
if they dare tamper with the words within it specifically.

Now, if this book was pure allegory with no known meaning
to relay, these 2 things would not have been connected
with this book.
In fact, it seems silly when John wrote one of the Gospels
himself - one would THINK that an actual gospel account
of Jesus' ministry and death/raising would be much more
important to warn of tampering with and give a blessing
for reading than Revelation!

So this shows us that Revelation is not some allegory that
we can just dismiss as anything literal or useful to teach
us anything - in fact, we're told this:
Rev 22
7"And behold, I am coming quickly
Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book."
10And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book,
for the time is near.

It's CALLED prophecy directly, not allegory.

So people need to start reading this book correctly and stop
making false claims about it.