Universalism

[LJSGM]

I think that the fact that scriptures say "things" instead of "all people" more indicates to me that he's speaking of the new heaven and new earth, harmony...

 

[Nadiine]

I think that the fact that scriptures say "things" instead of "all people" more indicates to me that he's speaking of the new heaven and new earth, harmony...

definitely that also.

It just goes to show how people read things in that they
want them to mean.
It's rampant in this theological position

 

[red77]

And where is this mystery verse. I have asked for it in context a couple times, but nothing

Tim, you just gave Nadiine a "high five" for her interpretation of the exact same verse!

No matter, here it is once more along with another verse that talks about the restoration of all things for good measure.



For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.



And that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the times of the restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

 

[red77]

obfuscating Wow, good word
I like that.

but I'm still waiting for the scripture in context.

I like the word!

Verse has been provided, and I can only presume that my assessment was correct as you didn't address that part?

 

[red77]

definitely that also.

It just goes to show how people read things in that they
want them to mean.
It's rampant in this theological position

More projection there.....

What was the blood of the cross for if it were only "things" that were reconciled? I wish you would actually answer some of these points.

any chance of you answering whether you'd be annoyed if all people were reconciled yet?

*waits with baited breath*

 

[timlamb]

I like the word!

Verse has been provided, and I can only presume that my assessment was correct as you didn't address that part?

There you go again, presuming. Your assessment of my startement was bordering on rudeness and intentionally maligning, I didn't care to respond, wasted words.

There are many verses with the word reconcile, I was asking YOU to identify which verse you wanted to quote for context.

 

[timlamb]

Tim, you just gave Nadiine a "high five" for her interpretation of the exact same verse!

No matter, here it is once more along with another verse that talks about the restoration of all things for good measure.



For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.



And that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the times of the restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

These verses obviously refer to the new Heaven and new earth. Yes, all the eath and mankind will be restored to it's origional righteousness and thus God will be reconciled to it. But, just as the earth will be destroied by fire so the wicked and non-believing will be destroid in the Lake of Fire so that God may be glorified in His creation.

Think about it, why would heaven need to be restored except that it was defiled by unrighteousness, when Satan fell. Remember, this Reconciliation takes place AFTER the Great White Throne Judgement. Satan and those who's names are not in the book of life and death are all in the Lake of Fire, and the rest, ie heaven and earth, are restored or reconciled.

See it is easy when the verse is in context!

 

[red77]

These verses obviously refer to the new Heaven and new earth. Yes, all the eath and mankind will be restored to it's origional righteousness and thus God will be reconciled to it. But, just as the earth will be destroied by fire so the wicked and non-believing will be destroid in the Lake of Fire so that God may be glorified in His creation.

Think about it, why would heaven need to be restored except that it was defiled by unrighteousness, when Satan fell. Remember, this Reconciliation takes place AFTER the Great White Throne Judgement. Satan and those who's names are not in the book of life and death are all in the Lake of Fire, and the rest, ie heaven and earth, are restored or reconciled.

See it is easy when the verse is in context!

Doesn't work Tim. If it's all things then it's all, not 'some'. If peace has been made with the blood of the cross for the reconciliation of all then it's not at a future point where so much would have already been lost...

If it was prophecised in ancient time that God would restore ALL things then it isn't 'some' as you are forced into conceding by this approach. You may want to at what you write here but not myself thanks. You don't accept ALL as being all and much of creation is lost to some pointless pit of suffering.

 

[timlamb]

Doesn't work Tim. If it's all things then it's all, not 'some'. If peace has been made with the blood of the cross for the reconciliation of all then it's not at a future point where so much would have already been lost...

If it was prophecised in ancient time that God would restore ALL things then it isn't 'some' as you are forced into conceding by this approach. You may want to at what you write here but not myself thanks. You don't accept ALL as being all and much of creation is lost to some pointless pit of suffering.

Prophecy is a foretelling of a future event, it doesn't include the moment of the prophecy. All creation will be reconciled because of the Blood of Christ. But in this case timing is everything. Only that which was destined to be restored remains and will be reconciled. This is the only way the rest of scripture works with this. Scripture does work together you know

 

[red77]

There you go again, presuming. Your assessment of my startement was bordering on rudeness and intentionally maligning, I didn't care to respond, wasted words.

What else could I gather from what you'd said in your own posts? I couldn't see any other conclusion to reach. Do you think this life is worthless if it doesn't mean that it's here to pick an eternal destiny? Would it annoy you if all people were reconciled to God?

There are many verses with the word reconcile, I was asking YOU to identify which verse you wanted to quote for context.

[/QUOTE]

And it had already been under discussion for at least a couple of pages but it's been pasted for you and you've answered it, although unsurprisingly not IMO to any satisfaction

 

[red77]

Prophecy is a foretelling of a future event, it doesn't include the moment of the prophecy. All creation will be reconciled because of the Blood of Christ. But in this case timing is everything. Only that which was destined to be restored remains and will be reconciled. This is the only way the rest of scripture works with this. Scripture does work together you know

If it were only a portion that was destined to be restored then it wouldn't be ALL! The fact that you can only interpret these verses in such a manner so that they 'work' with the rest is speaking volumes. Effectively what was prophecised was 'some' of creation, that which was "destined". The verses do not say this in any way. Seeing as you make the argument that scripture works together then what of the verses that speak of what God wills and desires? That God works all things out in accordance with the purpose of His Will? You automatically make it an impossibility and do the exact thing you accuse 'uni's of, twisting verses. All means all (Except when it's inconvenient)

 

[LightSeaker]

Think about it, why would heaven need to be restored except that it was defiled by unrighteousness, when Satan fell.

I'm thinking about it. And what I see being restored is our own awareness of Heaven as a place of sacredness and life. It’s we Human Beings who needs to have our awareness of the Sacredness of Heaven restored. This awareness comes while living in the presence of Holiness itSelf in the form of Jesus Christ. But you guys keep arguing against living in the presence of Jesus Christ. Are you also arguing against bringing the Kingdom of God to earth, here and now, through Jesus Christ?

Jesus taught us a lot of lessons on how to bring the Kingdom of God to earth. These are also lessons on being aware of the sacredness of Heaven.

Your suggesting that the house of God can be defiled?!? I don't believe that's any more possible than God being defiled. Heaven is where God dwells. You defile the place where God dwells, your also defiling God. Spiritually speaking, that's too much of a reach for this soul.

.

 

[Hentenza]

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
the judgment was death can you name one man on whom the judgment did not come without it being an act of God?and did we have a choice about this judgment?I think not!So then we see the righteousness coming upon all men unto justification of life we are called to accept it at less than face value IE on those that beleive or on some.

Actually God choice was to condemn everyone. None seek God, not one (Romans 3). But the Lord dispensed His grace and sent His only begotten son so that those that believe could be saved (John 3:16). So how do we accept the free gift and are justified? Paul told us. We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1). If anyone doesn't have faith then they are not justified. Justification means being judicially found righteous by God. Without faith no one is justified and those that are not justified live in their sin. Those that live in their sin and are not born again will not inherit the kingdom of God. (John 3:5).

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Here it states very clearly that he is the Savior of all men and while many attempts have been made from the partialist camp to explain this away all of the attempts fall short. God is( notice it does not say potentially is)the savior of all men

No it doesn't. You seem to want to cheery pick the verses. Here is the verse that you decided was not relevant.

1 Ti 4:6

6 If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.

Words of faith. Faith is what it is needed. No faith, no salvation. God gave men the ultimate free gift. He paroled humanity with the condition of faith. That's it.

All of the verses that universalists use to support universal reconciliation are taken out of context and then, other verses that do not support it are dismissed or ignored. Universalism is nothing more than a human illusion based on the ideal that anyone regardless of belief will be saved. God loves humanity an He will not be forcing anyone to love Him. Forced love is no love at all.

 

[timlamb]

I'm thinking about it. And what I see being restored is our own awareness of Heaven as a place of sacredness and life. It’s we Human Beings who needs to have our awareness of the Sacredness of Heaven restored. This awareness comes while living in the presence of Holiness itSelf in the form of Jesus Christ. But you guys keep arguing against living in the presence of Jesus Christ. Are you also arguing against bringing the Kingdom of God to earth, here and now, through Jesus Christ?

Jesus taught us a lot of lessons on how to bring the Kingdom of God to earth. These are also lessons on being aware of the sacredness of Heaven.

Your suggesting that the house of God can be defiled?!? I don't believe that's any more possible than God being defiled. Heaven is where God dwells. You defile the place where God dwells, your also defiling God. Spiritually speaking, that's too much of a reach for this soul.

.

Supprizingly, I don't disagree with that much of what you said here. Maybe you stated it differently. I do however disagree with who you involve. Those who reject Christ now are no fit for the awareness of which you speak. The secrets of the kingdom are never given to those in unbelief, lacking spiritual guidance.

However, to say that heaven being dfiled would in turn defile God is the same as saying that coming to earth as a man defiled Jesus. There is a reason to resore heaven and I believe it has to do with the fall of Satan and the other angels with him. But, this is a little off topic (kind of refreshing though).

 

[LightSeaker]

Supprizingly, I don't disagree with that much of what you said here. Maybe you stated it differently. I do however disagree with who you involve. Those who reject Christ now are no fit for the awareness of which you speak. The secrets of the kingdom are never given to those in unbelief, lacking spiritual guidance.

Often it think it's form that we hold on to as the last word, not God.

God works outside of form. Where you say those who are not Christian are not given the secrets of the Kingdom of God, their actions often speak otherwise. As I said before, personally, I don't know how to limit God.

Thanks though. I do like the idea that we have stumbled upon an area of common agreement.

.

 

[timlamb]

If it were only a portion that was destined to be restored then it wouldn't be ALL! The fact that you can only interpret these verses in such a manner so that they 'work' with the rest is speaking volumes. Effectively what was prophecised was 'some' of creation, that which was "destined". The verses do not say this in any way. Seeing as you make the argument that scripture works together then what of the verses that speak of what God wills and desires? That God works all things out in accordance with the purpose of His Will? You automatically make it an impossibility and do the exact thing you accuse 'uni's of, twisting verses. All means all (Except when it's inconvenient)

You get all hung up on the "Purpose of His Will" when I doubt you really understand what that is. God's will has not been done on earth except within his own people when they follow His word. Does this world look like God's will is being done?

God's will is that we come to Him, but it is by choice that he made us and the purpose is that we come by our wills to His perfect will. If His purpose was being done there would be no sin. Explain His purpose to us, explain how it is being done. You can't and be compatible with scripture.

 

[red77]

You get all hung up on the "Purpose of His Will" when I doubt you really understand what that is. God's will has not been done on earth except within his own people when they follow His word. Does this world look like God's will is being done?

God's will is that we come to Him, but it is by choice that he made us and the purpose is that we come by our wills to His perfect will. If His purpose was being done there would be no sin. Explain His purpose to us, explain how it is being done. You can't and be compatible with scripture.

I don't get 'all hung up' on anything Tim. I merely quote the verse that says that ultimately God has everything worked out. That doesn't mean that everything is going to be perfect in this world, why should it? God's purpose speaks of reconciling all creation to Himself which is completely compatible with scripture. I don't pretend to know everything inside and out as only God would know how this plays out. What i don't need to do is make out that 'all things being reconciled' means 'some' or 'a few' in order to be compatible with a doctrine

 

[red77]

Actually God choice was to condemn everyone. None seek God, not one (Romans 3). But the Lord dispensed His grace and sent His only begotten son so that those that believe could be saved (John 3:16). So how do we accept the free gift and are justified? Paul told us. We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1). If anyone doesn't have faith then they are not justified. Justification means being judicially found righteous by God. Without faith no one is justified and those that are not justified live in their sin. Those that live in their sin and are not born again will not inherit the kingdom of God. (John 3:5).





No it doesn't. You seem to want to cheery pick the verses. Here is the verse that you decided was not relevant.

1 Ti 4:6

6 If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.

Words of faith. Faith is what it is needed. No faith, no salvation. God gave men the ultimate free gift. He paroled humanity with the condition of faith. That's it.

All of the verses that universalists use to support universal reconciliation are taken out of context and then, other verses that do not support it are dismissed or ignored. Universalism is nothing more than a human illusion based on the ideal that anyone regardless of belief will be saved. God loves humanity an He will not be forcing anyone to love Him. Forced love is no love at all.

Oh not this lame 'out of context' copout again *yawn*. That is just a tired non argument. In regards to 'forced love' then any time you forcefully protect your child from harm then you are forcing your love on the child. Does that mean you should just let them wander into an open fire or dangerous place because it would be unloving to coerce them away from danger? People force their love on people all the time so as an argument it's moot.

 

[EyezOFire]

OK well... so I didnt read all 151 pages but I do know that Universal Reconciliation rings true to my heart about the nature of the Father. To me it makes perfect sense.

 

[LightSeaker]

Does this world look like God's will is being done?

That's a great question. And as I look around me and the state the world is in, I don't believe that even the followers of Jesus Christ are following God's will.

God's will is that we come to Him, ...

I’d like to point out a slightly different vision of God's will for us than the one you proposed. I'd argue that the total sum of God's will is found with in the Sermon on the Mount. The Sermon on the Mount is the Magna Carta of the Kingdom of God brought down to earth as presented by Jesus Christ.

Also, in Luke 4:18, which I liken to the Nazareth Manifesto, Jesus tells us why He came which is basically to help the poor and those in need. If also we do as Jesus and why He said His Father sent Him, we will be closer to following the will of God.

And than as an explanation point about the Will of God being that we are to help the poor and those in need, we are told straight up by Jesus Christ that we can't even be saved unless we ARE helping the poor and those in need. He says that in Matthew 25:31-46. So I don't care how much one believes in Jesus Christ...if we are not helping the poor and those in need...we ARE NOT doing God's Will.


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