Universalism

[timlamb]

Chaela said: “But wait, there's more! As for similar passages that go on to say that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in "this age" nor in "the age to come", they are referring, respectively, to the Jewish age (OT) and the Christian one (NT). Specific timeframes are being spoken of, rather than a blanket "never" or "forever and ever". As I have already shown you, Paul has indicated that there will be more ages to come.”

Matthew 12:32
" Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Luke 18:30
who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

Ephesians 1:21
far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Ephesians 2:7
so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

I don’t know where anyone gets that there will be multiple “Ages” yet to come

 

[Nadiine]

Chaela said: “But wait, there's more! As for similar passages that go on to say that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in "this age" nor in "the age to come", they are referring, respectively, to the Jewish age (OT) and the Christian one (NT). Specific timeframes are being spoken of, rather than a blanket "never" or "forever and ever". As I have already shown you, Paul has indicated that there will be more ages to come.”

Matthew 12:32
" Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Luke 18:30
who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

Ephesians 1:21
far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Ephesians 2:7
so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

I don’t know where anyone gets that there will be multiple “Ages” yet to come

Becuz it's the only way they can make it work around the obvious passages.

Even then, it still won't work out for them with tacking on
their "3rd or 4th or 5th" age.... becuz it would specify which age
it WOULD be forgiven in! lol
Why in the world say that it just won't be forgiven in the "next age"
when it get's forgiven in . . . the one after that one?

& Why is the focus on what WON'T happen?

In the mercy, grace, goodness and love they keep touting, wouldn't
the Bible POSITIVELY focus on when that 'unpardonable' sin
WOULD BE FORGIVEN instead of when it won't?


And when did "Never" stop meaning Never?
Never means never. If there are more than 2 ages (this life &
the next), then why say Never at all?
Just say it won't be forgiven in 2 ages, but it WILL be forgiven
in ____3rd age.

Sorry that makes absolutely no sense; but this is the fallacy of
a read-in doctrine - it doesn't exist except where it's directly
manipulated and created into a passage to make it say what
they want it to.

IF they got forgiven of this unpardonable sin, wouldn't we also
see that exampled somewhere in the end of Revelation when
we're given the chronology of the judgment and recreation/
restoration?
But.... it's not there either. (where it should be to support
them).

At every turn, this doctrine falls short and makes no sense.
Not to mention that it also opposes the gospel itself.

 

[Nadiine]

Originally Posted by Tissue

Why does God completely abandon people he loves?
​

Let me add this, just becuz you can't answer or understand
that, never means He doesn't sentence them to condemnation.
Your lack of understanding is your own issue - it doesn't affect
God or His laws or His agenda by you not comprehending it.

Again, this just sounds like Job - pls. read God's reply to
those who question & judge Him or His ways - it affects Him
none.

But you continue to ignore that God has not only
harshly judged and put people to death & caused them
great hardship (even in discipline),
but He also allows the people he loves to go thru many horrible things:
starvation
abuse
robbery-theft
emotional pain
genocide-infanticide
oppression
rape
financial ruin
disease
mental illnesses
persecution/martyrdom
torture - heinous murder
kidnapping
molestation

You wouldn't let most any of that list above happen to people
you love, would you? I doubt I would if I knew I could stop it.

So don't think that God can't or won't send people to
eternal separation when they made a choice to
refuse His way out for them!
It's obvious that His love and justice don't fit your ideals,
so you cannot decide what He can't do just becuz you
claim He's "LOVE". (in the error of using your model of what love is).

He's already proven that He doesn't operate or think
like you or I do - so free Him from the box that your
theology shoves Him into.

There are laws and rules in the spiritual world and in the
universe. Much like gravity, God works within these
boundaries. SIN itself cannot just be removed from
everyone.
God came to earth to bridge that gap to allow us entry
into His domain and be HIS CHILDREN thru adoption -
IF and only IF we repent and recieve His saving grace.

But one MUST have atonement. BY LAW. God does not
break His laws or His promises.
He both promised to eradicate sin and give His heirs
the Kingdom and live in a sinless creation.

Those who hate God and/or refuse their atonement cannot
and will not be included due to their sin they clung to
and refused to repent of/turn from.

Period. They MUST be excluded and bear the full weight of the penalty of their own sin that they did not allow Christ to take away for them.
It cannot be any clearer.

​

 

[Nadiine]

Originally Posted by Tissue

Why does God completely abandon people he loves?
​

(they abandoned God)

The source of the problem here is people's misconception about
Love [esp. where God is concerned].

People think they know what love is, and then impose their
understanding of it onto God as if God has to fit their ideal -
the minute He uses His justice or allows anything outside their little
box that seems contrary to their perception of "love", then
God get's questioned - and worse, scripture gets maligned in order
to fit their ideal.
*instead of letting God define His love for us so that we
can understand His fullness - His attributes and how they
all work in harmony*

Have you read these verses?
Psalm 5:4-6
4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness;
No evil dwells with You.
5 The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes;
You hate all who do iniquity.
6 You destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.

Psalm 11:4-6
4The LORD is in His holy temple; the LORD'S throne is in heaven;
His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men.
5 The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked,
And the one who loves violence His soul hates.
6 Upon the wicked He will rain snares;
Fire and brimstone and burning wind will be the portion of their cup.
-------------http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=20&verse=10&version=50&context=verse
Revelation 20:10

1. 
   The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
   Revelation 20:9-11 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)
2. Revelation 21:8
   But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

------
Proverbs 3:32
32 For the devious are an abomination to the LORD;
But He is intimate with the upright.

Proverbs 11:20
20 The perverse in heart are an abomination to the LORD,
But the blameless in their walk are His delight.

Proverbs 16:5
5 Everyone proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD;
Though they join forces, none will go unpunished.

Proverbs 12:22
22 Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD,
But those who deal truthfully are His delight.

Proverbs 17:15
15 He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just,
Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD.

(other bible versions use "He detests" in place of abomination)
15 Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent—
the LORD detests them both.

These verses speak of Gods dislike of PEOPLE, not just their
actions; "love the sinner hate the sin".

Here's what David (the apple of God's eye) said:
Psalm 139:19-22
19 Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God!
Depart from me, therefore, you bloodthirsty men.
20 For they speak against You wickedly;
Your enemies take Your name in vain.
21 Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies.

--------------
* Paul taught that jealousy was carnal - but he also
taught there was a Godly type of jealousy:
1 Corinthians 13:4
Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous;
love does not brag and is not arrogant,
Galatians 5:20
idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger,
disputes, dissensions, factions,


2 Corinthians 11:2
For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy;
for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ
I might present you as a pure virgin.

There is an evil and pure jealousy - I believe the
same is true of hatred as well since we do feel it
within us as an emotion. It is who it is aimed at
and why and what we do with it that makes all
the difference.
--------------

The following segment is from a Pastor who taught on God's hatred
of the wicked - and how it seems to contrast with Christ's
message in the NT:
Matthew 5:43-44
Love Your Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you,
and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

*commentary by Pastor*

[SIZE=+1]Now how do Psalm 139 and Matthew 5 jibe? Didn't Jesus say that YOU HAVE HEARD to hate your enemies, BUT I SAY to love your enemies? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Let's think about this. Where had the crowd heard to hate their enemies? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Look over at verse 27:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Matthew 5: (27) You have heard that it was said to the ancients: "Do not commit adultery."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Where had the crowd heard to not commit adultery? From the Bible! [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Jesus said, YOU HAVE HEARD to not commit adultery, BUT I SAY. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Was Jesus contradicting the law not to commit adultery? Was He saying that it was no longer a law that was to be kept? No. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]He was saying that they had misinterpreted and misused this law. The same goes for hating one's enemy. They had misused it. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]They had used it to justify doing harm or not doing good to their enemies. But Jesus said that they are to LOVE their enemies. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Let's go back to Psalm 139:22:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Psalm 139: (22) I hate them [with] a perfect hatred; they have become my enemies.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]What does it mean to hate in the first part of this verse? God gives us the answer in the second part of the verse. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]It means to count someone as an enemy. Are Christians to count the God-haters as their enemies? Of course they are. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Now back to Matthew 5:44:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Matthew 5: (44) but I say to you, Love your enemies; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Jesus says "enemies," doesn't he? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]So he is confirming that we are to count them as our enemies, which is the same as hating them in Psalm 139. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]And how are we to behave towards our enemies, towards those we hate? We are to love them. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]And, as we have seen before in love toward the unregenerate, this means that we are to have their well-being in mind and to act accordingly. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]We are not to harm them or wish to harm them; we are not to seek revenge. We are to bless them, and do well to them, and to pray for them. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]They are still our enemies, and we are to hate them as such. But our hatred of them does NOT mean that we are to seek to harm them. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]We are to love them by doing good to them and praying for them. And one of the ways in which we do good to them is to tell them that they are lost and their deeds are evil. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]We do not tell them this out of malice, but out of love, because we seek the best for them. I hope that helps.[/SIZE]

Again, what we find is that there's no contradiction going on
in God's hatred of people who do horrible things.
And this makes sense why God can and will send them to
an eternal separation from Him when they choose to continue
to live in their sin and rebellion.

He is perfect love and perfect justice and perfect in grace/mercy.

 

[Rajni]

Chaela said: “But wait, there's more! As for similar passages that go on to say that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in "this age" nor in "the age to come", they are referring, respectively, to the Jewish age (OT) and the Christian one (NT). Specific timeframes are being spoken of, rather than a blanket "never" or "forever and ever". As I have already shown you, Paul has indicated that there will be more ages to come.”

Matthew 12:32
" Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Luke 18:30
who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

Ephesians 1:21
far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Ephesians 2:7
so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

I don’t know where anyone gets that there will be multiple “Ages” yet to come

You've got Ephesians 2:7 sitting right there on your computer screen, in your own response, with the term "ages" in bold-faced font, and yet you say, right below that verse, that you don't know where anyone gets that there will be multiple ages yet to come.

.

 

[2 King]

Chaela, you still havent adressed post #723

 

[Nadiine]

Nobody argues that people don't suffer while on Earth. It can be hard to understand but the hope that one day it will stop and will be no more is a driving force. Trying to compare temporal pain with an eternity of suffering is ludicrous. It's you who decrees that God has to do this in order to suit your own theology. It's incredibly ironic that you tell Tissue to free God from 'his theology' when you put God in the most restricting dogmatic box! I ask you again, would it annoy you if all were reconciled?

No red -

if you wouldn't allow a little 4 year old girl to be kidnapped
and molested and then murdered in a horrific, painful &
traumatizing way, then you MUST look into who God actually
is who CAN allow that to happen.

He knows the man who plots it out ahead of time and watches
him set up the kidnapping....

He watches the man go to child before they take them.

Would you be able to see that all being set up? Right to the
time the man takes the little girl and then does his
sickening acts on her and dumps her somewhere when
he's done?

Then watch her parents & family in devestating anguish for
months on end?


This is NOT about how long or how severe penalty is, it's
about the ability for us to allow evil when we claim to
love people. . .. little kids, etc.

You and I both know that we couldn't allow that if we
had ANY power to stop it!

This whole point only proves that God's love is NOT like
our own in a different capacity - and that is solely becuz
God also has the attribute of pure justice and Grace to
allow man to sin,
and the overall plan He has designed (the bigger picture).

So don't turn this into a level of punishment, I'm looking
at the SOURCE of His love opposed to your conception of love.
They are not the same.

Due to this, we cannot judge God by OUR standards and ideal
of Love. We have to accept His in it's fullest capacity to do
and allow what we could not.

Lastly, even IF you found eternal punishment unfair for
temporal sin, it only shows me your lack of knowledge as
to what Sin is (you are not listening to scripture on the
fact that sin does not just go away) and/or, an apathy
towards what sin actually is; how evil it ALL is.

The WORST evil of all, being the absolute refusal to call
Jesus LORD and God and accept so great a salvation.

 

[Rajni]

I don't see how "brood of the Devil" will ever enter a stangers house.
Not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, will enter God's Kingdom.
What of Jesus saying, "You are sons of your Father, The devil". Why then if they are sons of the devil would God who is the Father of the righteous, let them in?

He also called Peter "Satan". Shall we hastily conclude, then, that Peter wasn't a legitimate apostle but rather Satan himself? Or, perhaps could there be another explanation? Did the devil have kids? If so, where in scripture are their names listed?

As for God being the Father of the righteous, who do you think causes someone to become righteous? We don't make ourselves righteous, so if God is confronted with someone who is unrighteous, do you think He just shrugs His shoulders and tells them "Sorry, I can't help you", or does He do what He has come to do, and heal them?

I'm not understanding where you got the whole interpretation that I said the human heart is stronger than God.

You brought up all these different subsets of mankind that you seem to feel are so far gone that God can't fix them: Satanists, Freemasons, . I can only conclude from this that you believe there are people out there who are strong enough in their rebellion to thwart God's power to set them straight.

Ok Chaela, I remember you giving me 1 Timothy 2:3-4.
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4)

Does this verse prove that God will save all people? No, it simply states that God "will have all men to be saved." The word "will" in Greek is "thelo." It means "will" (1 Cor. 7:36), or "desire" (Mark 9:35; Phil. 4:16).

It's more proactive than merely wishing. Since God is omniscient and therefore knows the end from the beginning, He's not going to wish for something if He knows it's not going to come to pass. That makes little sense. Below is from the lexicon, explaining the Greek "thelo":

Thel'-o or thel'-o or in certain tenses theleo thel-eh'-o, and etheleo eth-el-eh'-o, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form ofhaireomai; to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereasboulomai properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), i.e. Choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. Be inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in -- desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)).
​

This seems to be saying that thelo is a type of desire that’s accompanied by the drive to see it come about, which is the type of desire God has for all men to be saved. If it were a more passive type of wishing, like wishing the sun will come out, then the alternative word, boulomai, would have been used.

God desires that all people be saved. But, not all people will be saved. But then, is this stating that God's will is not carried out? Well, yes and no. God wants that people not sin. Do they sin? Yes. Is God's will accomplished in this? No. Is God in control? Yes, yet His will that they not sin, is not carried out. They will be judged for their sins (if not justified by faith in Christ) and fall under the condemnation of God. Yet God does not want them to perish as it says in Ezekiel 33:11, "As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Will they perish? Yes, because God punishes the sinner who is not covered in the blood of Christ: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).

Isaiah 55:11 ~ "... so is My word that goes out from My mouth: It will not return to Me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."
​

God will accomplish what He desires. God desires that all men be saved. It's right there. Right ... there.
Yet people insist otherwise.
Would you be bummed out if everyone ended up saved along with you? Do you not like crowds?

So, does 1 Timothy 2:4 prove that God will save all men? No it does not.

When combined with other Scripture that indicates that God gets what God wants, it sure does prove that God will save all men.

.

 

[2 King]

He also called Peter "Satan". Shall we hastily conclude, then, that Peter wasn't a legitimate apostle but rather Satan himself? Or, perhaps could there be another explanation? Did the devil have kids? If so, where in scripture are their names listed?

1.) No.
2.) Absolutely
3.) Not that I know of.
4.) No where

Now that I've answered those questions with my "yes being a yes" and my "no being a no"
It's time to answer them Apologetically
1.) Rather than Peter being Satan in the flesh Satan was inside Peter spiritualy and was using Peter to do his will.
2.) see answer to question 1.)
3.) Those who follow him
4.) Names listed? no, those who follow him such as unlearned Pharisees? yes.

As for God being the Father of the righteous, who do you think causes someone to become righteous? We don't make ourselves righteous, so if God is confronted with someone who is unrighteous, do you think He just shrugs His shoulders and tells them "Sorry, I can't help you", or does He do what He has come to do, and heal them?

1.) We are made righteous by the death of Jesus.
2.) It's up to them to accept His healing. Or else where would free-will be?

You brought up all these different subsets of mankind that you seem to feel are so far gone that God can't fix them: Satanists, Freemasons, . I can only conclude from this that you believe there are people out there who are strong enough in their rebellion to thwart God's power to set them straight.

You're entitled to your own opinion of me and my thoughts.

Isaiah 55:11 ~ "... so is My word that goes out from My mouth: It will not return to Me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."

This saying what He says, He does, and nothing can stop it. If He says, "you follow your father Lucifer then you're going to hell for eternity." It's done, and there's nothing we can do about it but accept it.

God will accomplish what He desires. God desires that all men be saved. It's right there. Right ... there.
Yet people insist otherwise.
Would you be bummed out if everyone ended up saved along with you? Do you not like crowds?

1.) No
2.)depends who the crowd is.

1.) Sadly not everyone is going to heaven.

2.) No comment.

When combined with other Scripture that indicates that God gets what God wants, it sure does prove that God will save all men.

More like combined with scripture out of context. but ok.

 

[timlamb]

Originally Posted by timlamb

Chaela said: “But wait, there's more! As for similar passages that go on to say that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in "this age" nor in "the age to come", they are referring, respectively, to the Jewish age (OT) and the Christian one (NT). Specific timeframes are being spoken of, rather than a blanket "never" or "forever and ever". As I have already shown you, Paul has indicated that there will be more ages to come.”

Matthew 12:32
" Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Luke 18:30
who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

Ephesians 1:21
far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Ephesians 2:7
so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

I don’t know where anyone gets that there will be multiple “Ages” yet to come

​

Chaela's responce: You've got Ephesians 2:7 sitting right there on your computer screen, in your own response, with the term "ages" in bold-faced font, and yet you say, right below that verse, that you don't know where anyone gets that there will be multiple ages yet to come.

You're right, so either I'm really stupid, or I am taking all scripture as a whole. if you read it with the others it is either in contradiction or it means this one and the next meaning two, which is plural and so He said "Ages" I left it in there so you could see the comparison. Especially since it is Paul who said just a few lines earlier that Jesus will rule with power in this age and the one to come. I don't think he meant that Jesus rule would be over.

I admit, I have wondered myself if the thousand year reign before the Great White Throne Judgment is concidered by some as a seperate "age". But Luke 18 specifically refers to the age to come as eternal life, eternal life is the final age without end, right?

 

[Tissue]

Let me add this, just becuz you can't answer or understand that, never means He doesn't sentence them to condemnation. Your lack of understanding is your own issue - it doesn't affect God or His laws or His agenda by you not comprehending it.

This is a fair point; just because I don't understand something doesn't mean it is false.

But we must ask the question: Is there really a contradiction, to our best efforts of human logic, between a loving God and an eternal hell? If the answer appears to be, despite all study, 'Yes', then we must wonder why God would force us to confront a contradiction like that without providing revelation to explain it and ease our faith. Faith doesn't ask us to believe the unbelievable, and contradictions are just that: unbelievable.

I cannot see any way in which a loving God could condemn a person to eternal hell; to me, it's as incorrect as the statement '4 = 5'. For that reason, I cannot believe it. Might I remain open to the possibility that there is some way in which it works out? That depends on my intuition as to how much unexplored territory there is on this matter. Obviously, as I cannot imagine any possible way in which a loving God could condemn a person to eternal hell, I do not think there is leeway on this matter. If you can imagine such a way, then you do think there is leeway on the matter, and might be able to maintain a position of trusting God despite the contradiction.

Again, this just sounds like Job - pls. read God's reply to those who question & judge Him or His ways - it affects Him none.

This is not proof or disproof of Universalism. Just because a person questions does not mean they are wrong.

But you continue to ignore that God has not only harshly judged and put people to death & caused them great hardship (even in discipline), but He also allows the people he loves to go thru many horrible things...

The problem of worldly suffering is indeed a big one, but in light of a following eternity, the infinite engulfs the finite. From the viewpoint of God, who perfectly sees a following eternity, such 'bumps in the road' are ultimately minor (though he sympathizes, I am sure, with those who are suffering).

So don't think that God can't or won't send people to eternal separation when they made a choice to refuse His way out for them! It's obvious that His love and justice don't fit your ideals, so you cannot decide what He can't do just becuz you claim He's "LOVE". (in the error of using your model of what love is).

The bold part of this quote should be read as 'It's obvious that my understanding of His love and justice don't fit with your understanding of His love and justice', which is entirely true. However, I fully think and believe that God actually is as I say He is.

He's already proven that He doesn't operate or think like you or I do - so free Him from the box that your theology shoves Him into.

I don't see how my theological outlook shoves Him into a box any more than an outlook with the view of eternal hell does.

There are laws and rules in the spiritual world and in the universe. Much like gravity, God works within these boundaries. SIN itself cannot just be removed from everyone.

So Christ's death isn't powerful enough to remove sin from everyone. Got it.

That must be why he only ordains some to be saved.

God came to earth to bridge that gap to allow us entry into His domain and be HIS CHILDREN thru adoption - IF and only IF we repent and recieve His saving grace. But one MUST have atonement. BY LAW. God does not break His laws or His promises. He both promised to eradicate sin and give His heirs the Kingdom and live in a sinless creation. Those who hate God and/or refuse their atonement cannot and will not be included due to their sin they clung to and refused to repent of/turn from.

I have yet to hear a good reason why Jesus' sacrifice can't be accepted after death.

Period. They MUST be excluded and bear the full weight of the penalty of their own sin that they did not allow Christ to take away for them.

Why MUST they? Why is that required?

It cannot be any clearer.

Falsehoods can be quite clear.

 

[2 King]

LOL! Why would I want to read an old thread about people debating with Calvinists?

Does this mean you can't respond for yourself to my previous post?

1.) Because Calvinists are awsome

are you gunna quote me 2 Peter 3:9? It won't work

2.) That the Bible is lying when it says "no man shall be forgiven of this. in this age or the age to come?"
I think it speaks for itself when it says no one shall be forgiven of it. You quoted the verse before it. So? After it Jesus said no man shall be forgiven it.

 

[timlamb]

Chaela said: He also called Peter "Satan". Shall we hastily conclude, then, that Peter wasn't a legitimate apostle but rather Satan himself? Or, perhaps could there be another explanation?

No, He called Satan, Satan. Satan was using Peter to try to discourge the Lord from the will of the Father. Saints can be used by Satan simply by trying to get the saint to use "Logic" and "earthly wisdom".

 

[Rajni]

1.) Rather than Peter being Satan in the flesh Satan was inside Peter spiritualy and was using Peter to do his will.

Yes, I too think that's more along the lines of what Scripture meant there. However, some might be just as quick to jump to the conclusion that since Jesus overtly looked as though He was calling Peter "Satan", then by golly Peter must be Satan. The same with the "brood of the Devil" / "You are sons of your father the devil" passage you mentioned previously. Like Jesus calling Peter "Satan", it's probably not just a simple matter that the devil settled down, got married, and had kids, and by golly the guys Jesus was addressing were the devil's munchkinz.

1.) We are made righteous by the death of Jesus.

To clarify -- are you saying you believe that the death of Jesus alone makes us righteous? Because, if so, I don't understand why you go on to say:

2.) It's up to them to accept His healing. Or else where would free-will be?

Not the free will thing a-gain!! LOL!! "Clay, Meet Potter!" is a good read for those who believe in "free will".

In all accounts of healing in Scripture, Jesus told the person to be healed and they were healed. No moment of decision as to whether to accept or not to accept. He says it, and it's done. There's no voting on the matter conducted by the healing-recipient.

Originally Posted by chaela

Isaiah 55:11 ~ "... so is My word that goes out from My mouth: It will not return to Me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."
​

Originally Posted by 2 King This saying what He says, He does, and nothing can stop it. If He says, "you follow your father Lucifer then you're going to hell for eternity." It's done, and there's nothing we can do about it but accept it.

Wow. Which god is this again? Where does Jesus say "you follow your father Lucifer then you're going to hell for eternity"? So it's done and there's nothing we can do about it if it means sending people to hell, but it's not done and there's someting we can do about it if it means He wills that all be saved and go to heaven for all eternity?

Originally Posted by chaela

God will accomplish what He desires. God desires that all men be saved. It's right there. Right ... there.
Yet people insist otherwise.
Would you be bummed out if everyone ended up saved along with you? Do you not like crowds?
.... When combined with other Scripture that indicates that God gets what God wants, it sure does prove that God will save all men.​

More like combined with scripture out of context. but ok.

ROFL! It's always "taken out of context" to someone who doesn't agree. No surprise there, that's standard fare in online debate forums. I could just easily say the same but I never much cared for making claims about those on the other side of a discussion that could, in their estimation, apply just as much to me. I call that phenomenon "arguing with a mirror". It's so "I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I-ish."


So, suffice it to say that, obviously your interpretation really works for you -- who am I to begrudge you that? "Be it unto you according to your faith."

 

[2 King]

To clarify -- are you saying you believe that the death of Jesus alone makes us righteous? Because, if so, I don't understand why you go on to say:
Not the free will thing a-gain!! LOL!! "Clay, Meet Potter!" is a good read for those who believe in "free will".

God dosen't force us, or else it's all pointless. because we couldn't resist.
already read the book, I also watched the youtube vid where Apologists strongly disagreed with it and pointed out it's faults.
That's why most Apologists don't right books with a set perspective.
I also disagreed with it strongly because
I'm part-time Calvinist (Kidding)

In all accounts of healing in Scripture, Jesus told the person to be healed and they were healed. No moment of decision as to whether to accept or not to accept. He says it, and it's done. There's no voting on the matter conducted by the healing-recipient.

Funny, because he said according to your faith be it unto you. Their faith then was strong enough to be healed. I noticed he never went to an atheist and said according to your faith be healed.? So that argument must have took you little thought since it has major loop-holes.

Wow. Which god is this again? Where does Jesus say "you follow your father Lucifer then you're going to hell for eternity"? So it's done and there's nothing we can do about it if it means sending people to hell, but it's not done and there's someting we can do about it if it means He wills that all be saved and go to heaven for all eternity?

1.) Same God
2.) I can prove it because I can use analogy various logic etc. to prove it just like you do.
Nothing. But sit, watch, and burn.
Or
Go to heaven and rejoice and worship God for eternity.

ROFL! It's always "taken out of context" to someone who doesn't agree. No surprise there, that's standard fare in online debate forums. I could just easily say the same but I never much cared for making claims about those on the other side of a discussion that could, in their estimation, apply just as much to me. I call that phenomenon "arguing with a mirror". It's so "I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I-ish."

Are you always this eccentric? Sugar-rush?
Regardless.

So, suffice it to say that, obviously your interpretation really works for you -- who am I to begrudge you that? "Be it unto you according to your faith."

You have much more to lose than I do.
I tell people they go to hell and burn for eternity if they are disobedient. They do God's will go to heaven, angels rejoice etc.

You tell folks, "You go to heaven regardless, of course if you misbehave you will be punished in fire for a set-time, but in the end you get to rejoice in heaven."

Now think a momment. If I'm wrong, and disobey then die I get a good punishment and end up in heaven. If you're wrong, and disobey then die, then you end up in hell for eternity. So...who loses more? me or you?

 

[timlamb]

Ah. So it all comes down to what you may lose and fear in order to be 'right'. Does it surprise you that many people are alienated by your doctrine? My parents were. My friends were, not because they wanted to willingly rebel but because their sense of compassion and empathy balked at such a message of senseless suffering. It might work as a scare tactic on some people but there's something wrong in that in itself.

Ah, so this is what it comes to, what doctrine makes you most comfortable. We are instructed to work out our salvation "in fear and trembling". Doesn't sound like the comfort zone to me. If your family and friends are alienated by the prospect of hell, they do not fear God. Until you have worked out your salvation, accepted Christ, believed in Him for your salvation, you should be afraid.

 

[Rajni]

You're right, so either I'm really stupid, or I am taking all scripture as a whole. if you read it with the others it is either in contradiction or it means this one and the next meaning two, which is plural and so He said "Ages" I left it in there so you could see the comparison. Especially since it is Paul who said just a few lines earlier that Jesus will rule with power in this age and the one to come. I don't think he meant that Jesus rule would be over.

There is a point where Jesus hands all authority over to God:

1 Corinthians 15:25-28: 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.


​

I admit, I have wondered myself if the thousand year reign before the Great White Throne Judgment is concidered by some as a seperate "age". But Luke 18 specifically refers to the age to come as eternal life, eternal life is the final age without end, right?

True, eternal life is unending; it transcends however many ages are yet to come.





.

 

[2 King]

I'm Sorry but I find this picture extremely funny.

LOL! ROFL!

 

[Rajni]

1.) Because Calvinists are awsome

Well, yeah, that goes without saying.

are you gunna quote me 2 Peter 3:9? It won't work

I'll try not to. Wait ... uh-oh ... here it comes. And it's in pink!! 2 Peter 3:9 ~ "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." Sorry. I couldn't help it.

2.) That the Bible is lying when it says "no man shall be forgiven of this. in this age or the age to come?"

My point is that the Bible isn't lying when it says "no man shall be forgiven of this. in this age or the age to come". There are two distinct ages being referred to there: The age at the time Jesus said that, which would have been the OT timeframe, and the age to come, which would be the NT timeframe. However, there are more ages to come beyond that, as Ephesians points out.

I think it speaks for itself when it says no one shall be forgiven of it. You quoted the verse before it. So? After it Jesus said no man shall be forgiven it.

I quoted the verse before it because in their attempts to portray blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as a never-ever-forgivable sin, Partialists overlook how clearly Scripture states, in verse 28, that all other sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. My purpose for pointing that verse out is that it radically widens the scope of the number of people who will be saved in the end, even when viewed from the Partialist angle. Between the two verses (Mark 3:28 & 29), from just a Partialist view, the only people who will not be saved in the end would be those who saw Jesus first-hand performing His miracles and stated point-blank that He had a demon. That's it. Those are the only doomed people. And that's just from the Partialist angle. Now, since I believe that there are more ages to come beyond just the two mentioned in Mark 3, I believe that ultimately even the few who blasphemed the Spirit will ultimately be forgiven, in an age beyond the two Mark 3 indicated.

 

[2 King]

Hi Chaela,

You said:

"this age or the age to come," Matt. 12:32

Jesus said there was a sin that would not be forgiven in "this age or the age to come," Matt. 12:32:

"And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come."
​

A parallel passage is found in Luke 12:10. Jesus said,

"And everyone who will speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him."
​

Jesus stated, in Matt. 12:32, that there is a sin that is not forgivable either in "this age or the age to come." In Luke 12:10, He says blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven at all.
You qualify your belief by stating that "the age to come" is a future age which will terminate. Therefore, you've concluded that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will be forgiven after the end of "the age to come." Therefore, when you read Jesus' words in Luke 12:10, instead of concluding that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit won't be forgiven, you've concluded it will.

" . . . and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come"- Ephesians 1:20-21
This verse speaks about Jesus being seated at the Father's right hand and that He (Jesus) is above all rule and authority in this age and the age to come. Jesus' dominion will never end. Therefore, the age to come, singular, will not end either. This is why God the Father says of the Son, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever,"- Hebrews 1:8 Also, ". . . so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen," 1 Peter 4:11