Universalism

[timlamb]

the argument (mine) makes perfect sense because you are using one descriptive word to describe two different things and saying that since the same descriptive word is used the two different things are the same size. I have given three examples as to how this logic does not function.

the Lake of Fore and the New Jerusalam obviously happen at the same time. They are described the same way, they both are as long as the last age, which is forever.

 

[Nadiine]

why don't you quote scripture unstead of mis-interpreting it for us!

*giggle

 

[Nadiine]

Oh the heresy! God being able to fulfill His own will! It's been provided for you time and again and yet you seemingly insist that it's impossible. Along with other people suffering interminably in order to conform to the "right" doctrine... AMEN!!

That isn't God's will, it's His "read in" will by people who want it to
be true becuz they prefer it so much better.
What gets provided is your spin on scripture passages that have little
to do with what you claim they do [usually out of context].

If it were God's will, He wouldn't demand that we repent down
here and believe thru FAITH.
Salvation is thru FAITH, not proof at seeing God on His white
throne judgment handing out sentences.

This is a created doctrine by hopeful imagination and spun
into many passages it doesn't even belong which don't support
it as doctrine at all (even tho it's used for such).

And........ as I've checked back in & out of this thread, I'm STILL
waiting for the doctrine to be spelled out for me where you show
us where the dead repentant are let out of hell/lake of fire
after they serve some prison time and released with the saints.

Where exactly is this doctrine taught directly?
If it's important doctrine, you'd see it in proper chronological
order at the end of Revelation; instead, you see the lost hurled
into condemnation and the book is over with.
DONE.
interesting why that's recorded nowhere.

 

[timlamb]

Oh the heresy! God being able to fulfill His own will! It's been provided for you time and again and yet you seemingly insist that it's impossible. Along with other people suffering interminably in order to conform to the "right" doctrine... AMEN!!

What has been provided is cut and paste commontaries and out of context verses. Nothing scripturly sound. The whole idea is proprosterous, out of charactor for a righteous God in a sinful, rebelous universe.

If you guys would stick to quoting scripture we could talk easier.

 

[Tissue]

If you guys would stick to quoting scripture we could talk easier.

This is the Christian Philosophy and Ethics sub-forum. Philosophical inquiry was one of the bases upon which I first became interested in Universalism.

I have tried consistently to bring philosophical inquiries into this topic, but you and others appear unwilling to give that brand of argument proper due. Scripture is a valuable resource, but one should not ignore the value of philosophy. In fact, philosophy enables us to interpret Scripture at all.

I'm simply saying, for the record (since this is 'my' topic and all), Scripture need not and will not be the only resource used in this discussion.

 

[brinny]

This is the Christian Philosophy and Ethics sub-forum. Philosophical inquiry was one of the bases upon which I first became interested in Universalism.

I have tried consistently to bring philosophical inquiries into this topic, but you and others appear unwilling to give that brand of argument proper due. Scripture is a valuable resource, but one should not ignore the value of philosophy. In fact, philosophy enables us to interpret Scripture at all.

I'm simply saying, for the record (since this is 'my' topic and all), Scripture need not and will not be the only resource used in this discussion.

yet you are on a site that titles itself as Christian, and it is open conversation, and of course you will be challenged, and if challenged by Christians, you will be challenged with Bible verses, the Word of God, by which Christians live by and draw strength from for it is a Lamp unto our feet and a Light unto our path. Philosophy is man's limited ideas, dreaming with no destination in mind, sometimes a means of escape, and sometimes a diversion from looking life square in the eye, and sometimes it is merely wishful thinking...you could say at times it's verbal pot.

 

[timlamb]

This is the Christian Philosophy and Ethics sub-forum. Philosophical inquiry was one of the bases upon which I first became interested in Universalism.

I have tried consistently to bring philosophical inquiries into this topic, but you and others appear unwilling to give that brand of argument proper due. Scripture is a valuable resource, but one should not ignore the value of philosophy. In fact, philosophy enables us to interpret Scripture at all.

I'm simply saying, for the record (since this is 'my' topic and all), Scripture need not and will not be the only resource used in this discussion.

I don't mind philosophy, but Christians should measure all things by scripture. My request was for "QOUTING" scripture, rather than giving us the mis-interpretation of it. I would say minds are equally closed on both sides. If it were only you I wouldn't waste as much time here in a Universalist thread, but others tune in to read and follow and I want them to get the truth, especially the truth of what scripture says about those who will NOT be living with God in the new holy city, those who will not excape the Lake of Fire (Rev. 21:6,7,8).

 

[timlamb]

Oh the heresy! God being able to fulfill His own will! It's been provided for you time and again and yet you seemingly insist that it's impossible. Along with other people suffering interminably in order to conform to the "right" doctrine... AMEN!!

There is most definitly heresey on this thread. Those who teach God does not have the right to send away those who live in rebelion of Him.

And there is much foolish self imposed blindness. Those who think the world will all, given just the right set of circumstances, will stop their rebellion and love Jesus.

And those believe that God wasted His time on the Cross because He will just slap some sence into the mutitudes who took the wide path and they will all one day chose Jesus.

All men were headed for distruction, the blood on the Cross gave them a means to escape it. It isn't that some are refused life, it is that some are granted life, through faith in Jesus.

 

[Rajni]

why don't you quote scripture unstead of mis-interpreting it for us!

Sorry; I tend to overestimate others' familiarity with Scripture.
My bad.

Eph 2:6-7 ~
6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with

him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that

in the coming ages he might show the incomparable

riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in

Christ Jesus.












.




​

 

[Rajni]

Oh the heresy! God being able to fulfill His own will! It's been provided for you time and again and yet you seemingly insist that it's impossible. Along with other people suffering interminably in order to conform to the "right" doctrine... AMEN!!

It appears that many would rather be assured of their "free will" than
their salvation. It explains alot, that's for certain.

 

[Rajni]

We are not hijacking it. We are not abusing it. We hold Scripture to be of great value. We are simply trying to discern what it is truly saying.

There is a very deep thread of arrogance in your argument. 'Because someone disagrees with me (that is, they have come to a different conclusion), they must be wrong.' This is the essence of a closed mind, and closed minds are of no value to discussions, or to God (after all, did it not take an open mind to take the first step in the Christian walk? Does it not talk an open mind to heed and listen to the voice of God?).

Be more charitable to your brothers and sisters.

It's always considered heresy, cherry-picking, hijacking,
misinterpreting, preaching doctrines of demons, etc., when the
views expressed clash with those of the one making such
accusations. There's an underlying fear that if they learn
something, that which they learn might jeopardize their salvation.
The irony is that, in avoiding beliefs they seem to feel might "doom"
them if they were to subscribe to them, they often wind up
presenting their disagreement with the sort of arrogance that could
be deemed just as "hell-worthy" as they think espousing a new
theological viewpoint would be.

They've picked their poison, and arrogance -- rather than knowledge
-- wins out. For now.

Of course, I'm dead wrong in this assessment. Just ask those
for whom the above shoe fits -- they'll tell you as much!




.

 

[LJSGM]

Nadine- As far as repentance In the Lake Of Fire, after we are judged we are not delivered until we have paid the Uttermost farthing.
Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death

 

[Rajni]

There is most definitly heresey on this thread. Those who teach God does not have the right to send away those who live in rebelion of Him.

God has the right to do whatever He wishes. What we're trying to
get through to you is that evil is not so powerful that God has to find
a place to relocate it because He wasn't powerful enough to
disintegrate it entirely. This is THE God we're talking about here,
not some lesser derivative with no more power than the average joe.




.



.

 

[Rajni]

I can recognize a total waste of time. You cut and past your out of context verses, stick the word "UNITLL" in the mittle and quote something completely mis-interpreted, and I'm supposed to go through them all and quote them accurately and explain them? NO, the people can read for themselve, it only takes one or two to see what you have done, if you even did it yourself. You are so sold out you don't believe scripture anyway. To argue scripture with you is futile until you believe what it says.

I figured this was the sort of response I would get.

Since you don't seem to see your claims as worth the trouble it
takes to back them up, I don't see it as worth the trouble to continue
responding to them.

It's been real, dude! Peace out!

 

[MaxP]

God has the right to do whatever He wishes. What we're trying to
get through to you is that evil is not so powerful that God has to find
a place to relocate it because He wasn't powerful enough to
disintegrate it entirely. This is THE God we're talking about here,
not some lesser derivative with no more power than the average joe.




.


.

Evil is not so powerful God isn't able to disintegrate it entirely? On the contrary, God is entirely able. But he allows it to exist, and always exist, as a matter of choice. What kind of world would it be if we have no choice in our destiny?

 

[Bonez]

Universalism is infact a doctrine of false prophets. Jesus himself spoke of hell more than He ever did heaven. It is in the Bible plain and simple, if your not with God YOU WILL go to hell. Even in revelations on Judgement Day, Jesus judged those and sent the devil and his followers to hell forever, while the people who accepted Jesus Christ to reign with God forever. Universalism basically teaches that you can do whatever you want and still go to heaven, that is blasphemy.

 

[Nadiine]

Universalism basically teaches that you can do whatever you want and still go to heaven, that is blasphemy.

Exactly.
The lost gain both worlds; they get to do whatever they want
plus gain the next life if they just "do a little time" in jail.
Other Universalists even deny that there's punishment of any
kind.

It defies "you must be born again" - it goes against the gospel.

 

[Tissue]

yet you are on a site that titles itself as Christian, and it is open conversation, and of course you will be challenged, and if challenged by Christians, you will be challenged with Bible verses, the Word of God, by which Christians live by and draw strength from for it is a Lamp unto our feet and a Light unto our path.

Of course. But as a Women's sub-forum is for women, so is a Philosophy sub-forum for Philosophy.

Philosophy is man's limited ideas,

All of humanity's thoughts are limited, including our thoughts about God.

dreaming with no destination in mind

That is simply not true. All philosophy has a focus. If it had no focus, it would not even be able to be represented.

sometimes a means of escape

Huh?

and sometimes a diversion from looking life square in the eye and sometimes it is merely wishful thinking...you could say at times it's verbal pot.

I highly doubt you have any actual familiarity with philosophy. Who have you read? Whose philosophical texts are you basing this conclusion on?

If the answer is 'None', then who are you parroting? Your pastor? Your parents? Some self-proclaimed, self-taught Christian leader?

 

[Tissue]

I don't mind philosophy, but Christians should measure all things by scripture.

Perhaps.

My request was for "QOUTING" scripture, rather than giving us the mis-interpretation of it. I would say minds are equally closed on both sides. If it were only you I wouldn't waste as much time here in a Universalist thread, but others tune in to read and follow and I want them to get the truth, especially the truth of what scripture says about those who will NOT be living with God in the new holy city, those who will not excape the Lake of Fire (Rev. 21:6,7,8).

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. You are not at all open to the idea that your interpretation of Scripture might be wrong.

Of course, you can not be faulted for holding your own interpretation highly. There is a certain sort of confidence that goes along with Scriptural conclusions, particularly after much thought has been spent upon them (as I do not doubt you have done).

Treat us as sincere individuals who hold a viewpoint on Scripture opposing your own not out of ignorance or weakness in our faith, but because we have simply taken a different intellectual path. I assure you, we are faithful and honest individuals. Causticity is not helpful in a discussion like this, nor is it very convincing.

 

[LJSGM]

It appears that many would rather be assured of their "free will" than
their salvation. It explains alot, that's for certain.

I'm assured of both...