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preistsplace

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[
quote=Nadiine;52204326]The thing about repentance while in the lake of fire is that
whatever their level of 'torment' is (some Christian scholars believe
that the torment is solely lack of God's presence, not literal fire),
it's very similar to the Judas repentance.
Judas wasn't truly repentant, otherwise, he wouldn't have been
called the 'son of perdition'.
Remeber that Christ admonished Peter by calling him Satan
Once the unrepentant hit their
final destination, are they actually repentant about their sin?
(namely sin of refusing Christ's saving blood to cover them)
Or are they seeking to get out of their punishment?

If they were unrepentant to their death, I have no reason to even
believe that they'de somehow be GENUINELY sorry for their evils
when they didn't consider them evil prior.
So after seeing the true character and love of the judge they could not realize that they were wrong in life...It is the character of God's Love that calls us into repentance And I have yet to discover that God stops loving his creations after they die...

God HAS BEEN working in souls all along - John 16 the Holy Spirit
is and has been convicting the world of their sin. All the while, century
after century, they reject what they know inwardly (Rom 1, all are
without excuse) which is given to them by God.
Which is why they must go into punishment and must pay the uttermost farthing
Then, all of a sudden, AFTER seeing God manifested to them, and
as they go into their punishment, ALL OF A SUDDEN they see the
light and feel horrible for their sins?
They will want out of the unpleasant situation and that would most
likely override any genuine repentance - repentance they never
felt or responded to previously as God worked in them.
(back to gnashing of teeth; anger & derision against God).

We're told that TODAY is the day of salvation, and not to harden
our hearts, and do not put it off; to test ourselves to see if we're
in the faith. WHY then?
IF we all got saved anyways, these are quite pointless warnings
and admonishments.
[/QUOTE]Today is the day of salvation , those who do not accept the Gift are judged.
 
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rcorlew

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[Remeber that Christ admonished Peter by calling him Satan
So after seeing the true character and love of the judge they could not realize that they were wrong in life...It is the character of God's Love that calls us into repentance And I have yet to discover that God stops loving his creations after they die...

Which is why they must go into punishment and must pay the uttermost farthing
Today is the day of salvation , those who do not accept the Gift are judged.[/quote]

Two things you have going against your argument,

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I could have bolded the whole verse, but you go right ahead and pay the last farthing there, I will repent now.

2Thessalonians 1:1-12

Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing.

Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring.

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering--

since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,

and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels

in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

(I do not exactly know how long eternal is, but I am guessing that if I spend it in flaming fire it is probably too long of a time) <--added by me

when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power,

so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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wayseer

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He didn't call Peter "Satan" - He was rebuking Satan who was using Peter - influencing Peter to get to Jesus.

Unconvincing argument Nadiine.

Would you therefore claim that Jesus did NOT call Peter 'the rock' - he was just making reference to what Peter had said and not Peter himself?
 
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Nadiine

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Unconvincing argument Nadiine.

Would you therefore claim that Jesus did NOT call Peter 'the rock' - he was just making reference to what Peter had said and not Peter himself?
I'm not arguing anything.
Peter was not Satan and Jesus was not even talking to Peter, but
Satan working thru Peter to rebuke Christ's mission.

Jesus also said that Satan sought to sift him like wheat.
Luke 22:31
"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
32but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."


Peter was not a literal rock and Peter was not literally Satan.
Satan entered Judas, nobody called Judas "Satan" - he was used by
Satan to betray Christ and became a son of perdition.
(the only one lost of the 12)
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
 
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preistsplace

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Today is the day of salvation , those who do not accept the Gift are judged.

Two things you have going against your argument,

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I could have bolded the whole verse, but you go right ahead and pay the last farthing there, I will repent now.

2Thessalonians 1:1-12
Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing.

Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring.

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering--

since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,

and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels

in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

(I do not exactly know how long eternal is, but I am guessing that if I spend it in flaming fire it is probably too long of a time) <--added by me

when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power,

so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. [/quote]eternal destruction suggests not infinite punishment but rather Anniahlationinsm.. the word for eternal here.... Aionios...is debatable as to whether it means "eternal" or eonian, age abiding However there is convincing proof that it means nothing less than that they will be destroyed for the age.......
And yes the day of salvation is today... I have never said that it isn't important to be saved today,I have never said that it is beneficial to put off salvation.....I have only said that I do not see God as one gives you all the chances in the world while you are alive and the minute you die so does his mercy towards you. Note here that I did not say that you would not be punished after you die for not accepting God, for that we have no excuse.....
 
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preistsplace

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Nadine said
Peter was not a literal rock and Peter was not literally Satan.
Satan entered Judas, nobody called Judas "Satan" - he was used by
Satan to betray Christ and became a son of perdition.
(the only one lost of the 12)
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled
Could he really have done anything else the scripture had to be fulfiled...
He was used by Satan...OK....But it was also God's Will that it came to pass for the fulfilment of the scriptures
 
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Rajni

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Read this just a while ago....
Has the doctrine of eternal torture kept men from backsliding?

Has it turned the world to God?

Has it made the streets in your city safe to walk at night?

Has it kept the Christians from growing spiritually cold, or from committing disgraceful sins?

Has it prevented Churches from becoming worldly, or sinking into apostasy?

It has not! If anyone thinks to use their service to God as a fire escape, He will not accept it. Our service must be because we love Him. Everything He did for us was because He loved us, and He will accept nothing less from us. "The love of Christ constrains us" (11 Cor. 5:14).

JP Eby

AMEN !!

Churchdom definitely stands in need of another Reformation.



.



.
.
 
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timlamb

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Originally Posted by heavensprings
Has the doctrine of eternal torture kept men from backsliding?

Has it turned the world to God?

Has it made the streets in your city safe to walk at night?

Has it kept the Christians from growing spiritually cold, or from committing disgraceful sins?

Has it prevented Churches from becoming worldly, or sinking into apostasy?



I can't figure out why the UNI's are making such a fuss over this. I actually thought it was a pretty good side for bible truth (an eternal Lake of Fire). We know that people are not saved by believing in hell, they will not stay true to God in fear.

It has not! If anyone thinks to use their service to God as a fire escape, He will not accept it. Our service must be because we love Him.
And we are the first ones to say service to God will not save you. Grace saves, service is a demonstration of faith.
 
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Nadiine

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I can't figure out why the UNI's are making such a fuss over this. I actually thought it was a pretty good side for bible truth (an eternal Lake of Fire). We know that people are not saved by believing in hell, they will not stay true to God in fear.


And we are the first ones to say service to God will not save you. Grace saves, service is a demonstration of faith.
Unfortunately, many think that just becuz "God loves you", that it's
the ONLY thing that affects people & leads them to God.
It doesn't impact alot of people.
It didn't impact me any, I didn't give a flip if God loved me. If people
were impacted by Jesus' love, they'de convert in droves.
They already believe He loves.... it isn't getting them saved any more
than knowing hell/condemnation exist either.

Neither "save" people who don't care.
The people who believe hell exists are the same ones who think
they aren't going there becuz they aren't Hitler or Bin Laden.

So even the purpose of their message (God only being love & not
wrath) lacks foundation.
 
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heavensprings

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I can't figure out why the UNI's are making such a fuss over this. I actually thought it was a pretty good side for bible truth (an eternal Lake of Fire). We know that people are not saved by believing in hell, they will not stay true to God in fear.


And we are the first ones to say service to God will not save you. Grace saves, service is a demonstration of faith.

What you have quoted is in response to those who accuse christians who believe in God saving all, eventually, of encouraging people to live in sin, or, thinking it is easy to fall back into sin if you don't believe in eternal torment. As the last scripture quote says... the love of Christ constrains us... and I agree with you that no-one will stay true to God out of fear.
 
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heavensprings

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So even the purpose of their message (God only being love & not
wrath) lacks foundation.

I don't believe I have read that anywhere from anyone who believes in the final restoration of all. God is still a God of judgment as well as mercy and love. Even though most who believe in all being saved try to bring a message of the Love of God more than the God of Judgment, we do still believe in judgment, and that judgment can be very severe. I have had plenty of God's severe judgment in my own life. After all, the scripture does say,

1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?

This does not mean they will not be saved, but rather, their judgment will be incredibly severe.
 
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timlamb

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Is it beyond the scope of reason to venture that God may not have to force anyone? Your dogma dictates that people end up in a lake of either figurative or literal fire which either way is "deeply unpleasant" correct? Nobody would 'choose' this fate if they in full conscious knowledge knew that rejection would send them there. Or are you going to insist that everyone who you deem are hellbound through non acceptance are completely aware of their fate?

It does say in the bible that every knee will bow and every tongue confess. So either it's forced or given willingly. As it brings glory to God I would suspect the latter myself.

And I was under the impression that Jesus' sacrifice was a ransom for all the sin in the world. Is it somehow a failure if Jesus' debt for all sin turned out to be a 100% in the long run? Didn't Jesus say He came not to judge the world but to save it. What was that, hyperbole?
What IS amazing is that you guys take nothing litteral in the bible except that.
Cut and dry:
Wide road=destruction
narrow path=life

If there IS eternal life, then there IS eternal damnation, same wording for both, what goes for one goes for the other.

You say any intellagent being would turn to God with the threat of Hell, well where are they? NO! It is more important to them to rebel. They won't even buy a god that does not punish, like the one you sell. Satan, a created being, knows his fate yet choses to rebel and take man with him. It's all in the Word of God.

The weeping and gnashing of teeth is not sorrow, but anger. They will be dead in their sin and they will hate God for that, but they would not change.
Revelation 21:

5And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new " And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
6Then He said to me, "It is done I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
7"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

He said, after the Great White Throne Judgment, "It is finished" the Overcomers, get life, the others get the second death. He told John to write it down because "these words are faithful and true". Jesus is "Faithful and True" we know from Revelation 19:11.

It is hard teaching but we must accept it. We will one day understand why, for now we must just accept that it IS and trust Him to do what is right.
 
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BreadAlone

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Probably explained away somewhere in the Thread, but I think the verse about "depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" is enough for me.

This isn't true.
Then please, show us how it's not.
 
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Tissue

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Then please, show us how it's not.

...You're joking, right? You want me to 'show' that I hold other parts of Scripture as literal?

I'm pretty sure it's enough for me to simply claim it. I don't know how to 'prove' that I interpret a verse one way instead of another. That's not usually how these things work.
 
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BreadAlone

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No, I'm not joking. Show me how you can validly say that one part of Scripture is literal, while another part in the same style is figurative, or vice versa. Unless you're just cherry-picking to suit your own dogmas, in which case carry on.
 
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Tissue

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Oh, that's a completely different question.

I am deciding what is literal and what is figurative in the same fashion that anyone else does: by weighing the verses against what I know about the world, and my philosophical commitments. For example, based upon what I know about the world, Abraham's descendants aren't actually as numerous as the stars. That's figurative. Based upon my philosophical commitments, souls aren't immaterial fluff; they are simply a term to refer to something in particular about our material bodies.

If you mean to imply that my method of determining what is literal and what is figurative is somehow faulty (the 'cherry-picking' you refer to), then I would be very interested to hear your method.
 
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timlamb

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Oh, that's a completely different question.

I am deciding what is literal and what is figurative in the same fashion that anyone else does: by weighing the verses against what I know about the world, and my philosophical commitments. For example, based upon what I know about the world, Abraham's descendants aren't actually as numerous as the stars. That's figurative. Based upon my philosophical commitments, souls aren't immaterial fluff; they are simply a term to refer to something in particular about our material bodies.

If you mean to imply that my method of determining what is literal and what is figurative is somehow faulty (the 'cherry-picking' you refer to), then I would be very interested to hear your method.
I bet Abrahams descendants are as numberous as the stars he could see in the night sky, but you are right. Some phrases are idiomatic of the time they were written. "The stars in the sky" or "the sand on the shore", just intended to mean a number beyond imagining. some verses are litteral AND figurative such as cutting off your hand to stop sinning. It should not come to that but you should be willing to do what it takes.

But, I don't think weighing scripture against what I think I know about anything is a good idea. I'm not going to cut off my hand becasue I know from scripture it is my heart and my human nature that causes me to sin. But when God says, repent or face judgment. And when He says, those who overcome will only face death once and those who do not repent, that is, turn away from sin will not have spiritual life but face spiritual death for eternity I have no reason to mix my philosophy into that. God offered me a way out NOW, and I'm not going to bet that God won't judge sinful man just like He said.

See, there are figurative speach and allegories but I don't have to add or take away to understand those. But, to say there is an escape route from the Lake of Fire, now that adds to scripture and that is not using reason, that is just being foolish.
 
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preistsplace

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Probably explained away somewhere in the Thread, but I think the verse about "depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" is enough for me.

Then please, show us how it's not.
the word originally used was aionios which does not exclusively imply eternity.
&#945;&#7984;&#8061;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; , &#959;&#957;, also &#945;, &#959;&#957; Pl. Ti.37d, Ep.Heb.9.12*A. [select] lasting for an age&#945;&#7984;&#8061;&#957;” 11), perpetual, eternal (but dist. fr. &#7936;&#8147;&#948;&#953;&#959;&#962;, Plot.3.7.3), “&#956;&#8051;&#952;&#951;” Pl.R. 363d; “&#7936;&#957;&#8061;&#955;&#949;&#952;&#961;&#959;&#957; . . &#7936;&#955;&#955;&#8125; &#959;&#8016;&#954; &#945;&#7984;&#8061;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;” Id.Lg.904a, cf. Epicur. Sent.28; “&#945;&#7984;. &#954;&#945;&#964;&#8048; &#968;&#965;&#967;&#8052;&#957; &#8004;&#967;&#955;&#951;&#963;&#953;&#962;” Id.Nat.131 G.; &#954;&#945;&#954;&#8049;, &#948;&#949;&#953;&#957;&#8049;, Phld.Herc. 1251.18, D.1.13; &#945;&#7984;. &#7936;&#956;&#959;&#953;&#946;&#945;&#8150;&#962; &#946;&#945;&#963;&#945;&#957;&#953;&#963;&#952;&#951;&#963;&#8057;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#953; ib.19; “&#964;&#959;&#8166; &#945;&#7984;. &#952;&#949;&#959;&#8166;” Ep.Rom. 16.26, Ti.Locr.96c; “&#959;&#8016; &#967;&#961;&#959;&#957;&#8055;&#951; &#956;&#959;&#8166;&#957;&#959;&#957; . . &#7936;&#955;&#955;&#8125; &#945;&#7984;&#969;&#957;&#8055;&#951;” Aret.CA1.5; &#945;&#7984;. &#948;&#953;&#945;&#952;&#8053;&#954;&#951;, &#957;&#8057;&#956;&#953;&#956;&#959;&#957;, &#960;&#961;&#8057;&#963;&#964;&#945;&#947;&#956;&#945;, LXX Ge.9.16, Ex.27.21, To.1.6; “&#950;&#969;&#8053;” Ev.Matt.25.46, Porph.Abst.4.20; &#954;&#8057;&#955;&#945;&#963;&#953;&#962; Ev.Matt. l.c., Olymp. in Grg.p.278J.; “&#960;&#961;&#8056; &#967;&#961;&#8057;&#957;&#969;&#957; &#945;&#7984;2 Ep.Tim. 1.9: opp. &#960;&#961;&#8057;&#963;&#954;&#945;&#953;&#961;&#959;&#962;, 2 Ep.Cor. 4.18.
2. [select] holding an office or title for life, perpetual, “&#947;&#965;&#956;&#957;&#945;&#963;&#8055;&#945;&#961;&#967;&#959;&#962;” CPHerm.62.
3. [select] = Lat. saecularis, Phleg.Macr.4.
4. [select] Adv. -&#8055;&#969;&#962; eternally, “&#957;&#959;&#8166;&#962; &#7936;&#954;&#8055;&#957;&#951;&#964;&#959;&#962; &#945;&#7984;. &#960;&#8049;&#957;&#964;&#945; &#8036;&#957;” Procl.Inst.172, cf. Simp. in Epict.p.77D.; perpetually, &#956;&#953;&#963;&#949;&#8150;&#957; Sch.E.Alc.338.


&#945;&#7984;&#8061;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;
[select] lasting for an age (&#945;&#7984;&#8061;&#957; 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, id=Plat.



so that you can verify the source here is the link...
Matthew, verse 1, chapter 25, verse 46
 
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