Universalism

[timlamb]

the word originally used was aionios which does not exclusively imply eternity.
αἰώνιος , ον, also α, ον Pl. Ti.37d, Ep.Heb.9.12:—*A. [select] lasting for an age (“αἰών” 11), perpetual, eternal (but dist. fr. ἀΐδιος, Plot.3.7.3), “μέθη” Pl.R. 363d; “ἀνώλεθρον . . ἀλλ᾽ οὐκ αἰώνιον” Id.Lg.904a, cf. Epicur. Sent.28; “αἰ. κατὰ ψυχὴν ὄχλησις” Id.Nat.131 G.; κακά, δεινά, Phld.Herc. 1251.18, D.1.13; αἰ. ἀμοιβαῖς βασανισθησόμενοι ib.19; “τοῦ αἰ. θεοῦ” Ep.Rom. 16.26, Ti.Locr.96c; “οὐ χρονίη μοῦνον . . ἀλλ᾽ αἰωνίη” Aret.CA1.5; αἰ. διαθήκη, νόμιμον, πρόσταγμα, LXX Ge.9.16, Ex.27.21, To.1.6; “ζωή” Ev.Matt.25.46, Porph.Abst.4.20; κόλασις Ev.Matt. l.c., Olymp. in Grg.p.278J.; “πρὸ χρόνων αἰ.” 2 Ep.Tim. 1.9: opp. πρόσκαιρος, 2 Ep.Cor. 4.18.
2. [select] holding an office or title for life, perpetual, “γυμνασίαρχος” CPHerm.62.
3. [select] = Lat. saecularis, Phleg.Macr.4.
4. [select] Adv. -ίως eternally, “νοῦς ἀκίνητος αἰ. πάντα ὤν” Procl.Inst.172, cf. Simp. in Epict.p.77D.; perpetually, μισεῖν Sch.E.Alc.338.


αἰώνιος
[select] lasting for an age (αἰών 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, id=Plat.



so that you can verify the source here is the link...
Matthew, verse 1, chapter 25, verse 46

And the same word is used for eternal life, so either there are both, eternal life and eternal damnation, or neither are true.

 

[Rajni]

And the same word is used for eternal life, so either there are both, eternal life and eternal damnation, or neither are true.

Even if Scripture had been originally penned in English and
"eternal"/"everlasting"/"forever" were the words God originally chose
to put there, you have to remember that the adjective is impacted by
the noun it's referring to, not the other way around.

Again, lots of things in Scripture were labeled "everlasting" that
were not everlasting. I'm sure you're familiar with the verses I'm
talking about. If not, I'll be more than happy to share them here.

I would be no more inclined to consider that eternal punishment is
equal in duration to eternal life than I would that a long business
meeting would be equal in duration to a long summer. The adjective
"long" varies depending on the thing it's referring to.

Scripture is clear that Jesus takes away the sin of the world, so any
punishment associated with it would also be finite.




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[Rajni]

Oh, and where do you get the notion that God doesn't punish from?! Is the only thing that warrants the description unending torment in your view?

I think that there's a certain negative ego-boost the sinful nature
gets at thinking that the it's flaws are so "all that and a bag of chips"
that they're going to need to be the focus of God's endless attention
in a special place designed for just that purpose. A sin nature that
can be transformed by God seems so ... frail and weak. But a sin
nature that is so powerful that even God Himself still can't wipe it
out after an eternity of eternities? Whoa! Aren't we somethin' else?
Check us out! People like it when a fuss is made over them,
you know? Eternal torment glorifies sin, and the sinner, thereby
generating said fuss.

Conversely, the idea that the part of us that can be hard to give up
is going to get extinguished (our sinful side. *poof* and it's gone) ...
well, gee ... where's the drama in that? The pomp and
circumstance? How anticlimactic ! Not to mention all the glory
it takes away from us and places upon God. Oy, the tragedy !





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[BreadAlone]

Thank you.

And the same word is used for eternal life, so either there are both, eternal life and eternal damnation, or neither are true.

 

[timlamb]

Even if Scripture had been originally penned in English and
"eternal"/"everlasting"/"forever" were the words God originally chose
to put there, you have to remember that the adjective is impacted by
the noun it's referring to, not the other way around.

Again, lots of things in Scripture were labeled "everlasting" that
were not everlasting. I'm sure you're familiar with the verses I'm
talking about. If not, I'll be more than happy to share them here.

I would be no more inclined to consider that eternal punishment is
equal in duration to eternal life than I would that a long business
meeting would be equal in duration to a long summer. The adjective
"long" varies depending on the thing it's referring to.

Scripture is clear that Jesus takes away the sin of the world, so any
punishment associated with it would also be finite.




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If Jesus took away all peoples sin there would be NO punishment, no sin to punish for. He took the punishment for all sin, but most will not accept that and so will take the punishment on their own.

You made a genaric, blanket statement about all the places words are used that translat eternal, ect. There are different words available, if the author wanted to convey a different meaning:
Matthew speaks of an eternal fire, eternal punishment, eternal life, and of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as eternal sin. Mark added eternal salvation(what is that if there is no eternal damnation?), and Luke adds information about eternal dwellings. Corinthians tells of eternal things not seen in the heavens. Ephesians of eternal purpose and Thessalonians speaks of eternal comfort.

Hebrews speaks again of eternal salvation and throws in eternal redemption. Hebrews also speaks of eternal judgment for some and eternal inheritance for others and reminds us that we have an eternal covenant with Jesus Christ. Peter tells of eternal glory and eternal kingdom and jude speaks of the eternal bonds of the fallen angels.

Tell me oh word master, which are really eternal and which are only temporary?

Different prophecy show us that things are eternal with out using the word:

10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

" But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

The Lake of Fire IS the second death, recieved only by Satan, his angels, and those who are still in their sin at the Great White Throne judgment. In revelation chapter 21 we get a word that is "faithful and true" that God dwells with us in the new city, except those who have recieved the second death.

I hope I have given you something to ponder. I will be gone and not able to respond for a couple days.
Blessings and truth to you all,
Tim

 

[Rajni]

If Jesus took away all peoples sin there would be NO punishment, no sin to punish for. He took the punishment for all sin, but most will not accept that and so will take the punishment on their own.

Is that what the verse says, “He took the punishment for all sin
but ?” What you seem to be implying here is that His sacrifice
wasn’t enough, and that it’s only as effective as the will of feeble
mortals permit it to be.

You made a genaric, blanket statement about all the places words are used that translat eternal, ect.

LOL, you’re making a generic, blanket statement about my
conclusions regarding the words pertaining to eternal, etc. You’re
assuming I haven’t looked into it.

There are different words available, if the author wanted to convey a different meaning:

Correct. Which means “aion” (meaning “for an age” and not
“endless”), the word that the English "everlasting" and "eternal"
attempt to stamp out, wouldn’t have been used.

Matthew speaks of an eternal fire, eternal punishment, eternal life,

Matthew never spoke English, so he wouldn’t have uttered the word
“eternal”.

and of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as eternal sin.

Blasphemy against the Holy spirit was unforgivable only in the age
at the time, and the age to come. Scripture mentions more than one
age to come, so blasphemy against the Spirit is not endlessly
unforgivable.

Ephesians 2:6 ~ “And God raised us up with Christ and seated us
with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the
coming ages He might show the incomparable riches of his grace,
expressed in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.”

Mark added eternal salvation(what is that if there is no eternal damnation?),

I just explained that to you in post #508 – the same post you’re
responding to here. I’m beginning to suspect you’re not really
hearing what’s being said to you.

and Luke adds information about eternal dwellings. Corinthians tells of eternal things not seen in the heavens. Ephesians of eternal purpose and Thessalonians speaks of eternal comfort. Hebrews speaks again of eternal salvation and throws in eternal redemption. Hebrews also speaks of eternal judgment for some and eternal inheritance for others and reminds us that we have an eternal covenant with Jesus Christ. Peter tells of eternal glory and eternal kingdom and jude speaks of the eternal bonds of the fallen angels.

Again, Luke didn’t speaking English, and neither did Paul. So the
term “eternal” wouldn’t have been uttered, or penned, by them.

Tell me oh word master, which are really eternal and which are only temporary?

It doesn’t take a “word master” to know that they didn’t speak
English back in those days.

I’ll let Scripture tell you which are eternal and which are only
temporary:

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7)--until--God "will
restore the fortunes of Sodom" 16:53-55).

Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12) -- until--the Lord "will
restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17).

The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9) – until – the Lord "will
restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez. 16:53).

Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more"
(Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 – until – the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's
congregation "forever"– until – the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3)

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is –
until – they "were shattered" Hab. 3 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex.
40:15), that is– until – it was superseded by the Melchizedek
Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in
Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), that is, – until – the
Temple was destroyed.

The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus
24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away"
and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11,13), and God "made the first
old" (Hebrews 8:13).

The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never
to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" – until – Christ, the Lamb of
God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established
on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13).

God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" – until – the Lord
delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah
2:6,10; 1: 17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer. 25:27) – until
– the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and
"restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer. 49:39).

"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42) – until – the Lord "will restore the
fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).

Israel's judgment lasts "forever"– until – the Spirit is poured out and
God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).

The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond
slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), that is – until
– his death.

All manner of sin will be forgiven in this AGE as well as in the AGE
(not eternity) to come, except blasphemy against God's Spirit – until
– such blasphemy finds pardon in the fullness of the times (or ages)
when God unites all in Christ. For the Lord does not retain His
anger forever because He delights in mercy (Matt. 12:32;
18:11,21-22, Eph. 1:9-11, Rev. 4:11; 5:13, Mic. 7:18-20).

God's wrath has come upon Israel "to the uttermost" (1 Thess.
2:16) – until – all Israel be saved (Jer. 50:5, Luke 16:19-26, John
12:32, Romans 11:26-29).

So, Christ will say to unrighteous nations, "Depart from Me into
'everlasting' fire." And these nations will go away into "everlasting"
(original language: age-lasting) punishment or pruning, that is – until
– by God's severe mercy shown in judgment, all nations He has
made glorify and worship Him. Therefore, God will fulfill His
covenant with Abraham that in Christ all the families of all the
nations will be blessed (Gen. 12:3, Ps. 62:12, 67:4, 86:9, Matt.
25:41,46). For according to Paul (Gal. 3:8), God's covenant with
Abraham means that all will be justified and set right with God. So
all flesh will bless His name forever and ever (Ps. 145:21).

Therefore, all scriptural references that speak of everlasting fire or
judgment must be understood in light of God's (Love's) clearly
expressed heart, promise, desire, purpose and will. They are
"everlasting"; that is, they are continuous and ongoing– until – God's
judgments serve to accomplish His unchanging will and purpose to
unite all creation in Christ. (Gen. 12:3, Romans 4:13, Heb. 6:17).

Truly God's judgments are in the earth– until – mercy shall triumph
over those judgments. (James 2:13)

Different prophecy show us that things are eternal with out using the word: 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The day/night cycle will one day be obsolete (Rev 22:5). Therefore,
anything taking place within the period of time in which the day/night
cycle is yet in effect would itself be only temporary. Something
cannot logically be said to be happening "day and night" if there is
no more "day and night".

14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
" But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
The Lake of Fire IS the second death, recieved only by Satan, his angels, and those who are still in their sin at the Great White Throne judgment. In revelation chapter 21 we get a word that is "faithful and true" that God dwells with us in the new city, except those who have recieved the second death.

Since death itself ends up being abolished, where do you think that
would leave a 2nd (or even a 22nd, for that matter) death?

Also: If being tossed into the Lake of Fire is a Point of No Return,
why the Tree for the Healing of the Nations in Revelation 22? What
more healing would need to be done if the saved wouldn't need it
and the unsaved at that point won't be using it?








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[Rajni]

It doesn't make sense on any level. From the outset God sets up the parameters where most or much of His own creation will be lost for ever? God wills all men to be safe but it could never happen? But yet God works all things in accordance with the purpose of His will, except apparently being able to reconcile everything into Himself?!
But then all things be they in Heaven or Earth are reconciled. God will be All in all. God is the saviour of ALL men especially of those who believe. Jesus died as a ranson for ALL to be testified in due time. God will not cast off forever.

However, if we ascribe to the "orthodox" line then God, the source of all light and love, couldn't find any other way of creating a world with sentient creatures that wouldn't result in eternal pain. Apparently it was impossible to take any such variable as 'free will' into the equation without still being able to avoid the same unending pain of those He creates. As usual with this type of dogma it places so many restraints on what God can and can't achieve.

Prior to Augustine, Constantine and the early RCC it didn't seem to be what the early church founders haed garnered from the original greek and hebrew texts. Origen predates the orthodox message we have today. Still, what better way to keep people in line than through the fear of pain....

Dogma is more about in line to a set theology than it is about good news IMO....

 

[preistsplace]

And the same word is used for eternal life, so either there are both, eternal life and eternal damnation, or neither are true.

Are a tall building and a tall man necessarily the same size?
A big truck and a big dog?
A large ball and a large pimple?
For your ( and Augustine's) argument to work you would have top ansewer yes to all of these questions.

 

[preistsplace]

The Lake of Fire IS the second death, recieved only by Satan, his angels, and those who are still in their sin at the Great White Throne judgment. In revelation chapter 21 we get a word that is "faithful and true" that God dwells with us in the new city, except those who have recieved the second death.

I hope I have given you something to ponder. I will be gone and not able to respond for a couple days.
Blessings and truth to you all,
Tim

Well said in revelations we are left with kings and nations....
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Now look at this.......
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Seems like there is still rule and authority in Revelations .......Blessings In Christ Jesus

 

[timlamb]

Well said in revelations we are left with kings and nations....
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Now look at this.......
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Seems like there is still rule and authority in Revelations .......Blessings In Christ Jesus

I don't get your point

 

[preistsplace]

the argument (mine) makes perfect sense because you are using one descriptive word to describe two different things and saying that since the same descriptive word is used the two different things are the same size. I have given three examples as to how this logic does not function.

 

[preistsplace]

I don't get your point

all rulle and authority are put away In 1 Corinthians but Revelations ends with rule and authority and power in place.

 

[Rajni]

Why don't you actually quote the verse instead of giving us the Gospel according to chaela.

LOL, LOL, and your doing a genaric avoidance of the issue.


You are talking through your snout. You cannot say what would have been used.



WOW, your smrat


You are a liar and a false teacher. this is not in scripture.

31"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

As noted above, you teach falsely. only two ages are mentioned, the one they are in and the one to come. The Eternal one.


I would if you said something worth hearing


And if you studied your bible you would know there is no time after this age, so the next one IS eternal, it is the LAST age.

But you can't answer my question.

You forgot to quote this from the bible.
Mis-quotes and fabrications, every one of them. You twist the word of God and add to it which is strictly forbidden.
the last age IS eternal
this is a lie:oYou keep quoting things that don't show up in scripture the way you quote them
I'll agree with that.
This has nothing to do with the eternal.
There is so much FALSE teaching and mis quoting and all manor of Bible hacking in this ...The Bible warns about guys like you: 1 Timothy 4:1

Wow, very defensive post! If anything I've said so far were
truly false in your estimation, it wouldn't be bothering you so much.
People tend to get angry when they suspect they could be wrong
about concepts they've held near and dear to their hearts for so
long.

Let the Son shine in!












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[timlamb]

the argument (mine) makes perfect sense because you are using one descriptive word to describe two different things and saying that since the same descriptive word is used the two different things are the same size. I have given three examples as to how this logic does not function.

Your examples don't work because the two things you used could not possibley be the same size. In the physical, torment and life are both temporary. In the spiritual, both can be eteranl and both are intended as eternal. There is this age and the last age to come. If you tack on more ages then even eteral life is not what is promised, and you add to scripture.

Take that list of versed chaela quoted, they are hacked and twisted and in no way represent truth. Check for yourself.

I quoted scripture that used the word eternal and quoted only those that relate to the eternal. I left our verses such as realting to God's eternal being and eteranl power. I don't know for a fact but challenge anyone to show me that the same word was not used in all places where eteranl is used in the NT. These verses, supported by prophecy from revelation and other scripture say that those seperated from God at the Great White Throne are put into the lake of fire with satan and his demons forever. If man is not there forever then that created being satan is not either?

Prove to me the next age after judgement has an end and you may have an arguement but that takes away eternal salvation too, scarry though.

 

[Rajni]

Take that list of versed chaela quoted, they are hacked and twisted and in no way represent truth. Check for yourself.

Please post each verse you say was "hacked and twisted" and
provide a corresponding detailed explanation, complete with
Scriptural support, as to why you believe that to be the case.
Thanks in advance!




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[Rajni]

Prove to me the next age after judgement has an end and you may have an arguement but that takes away eternal salvation too, scarry though.

Depends on when you think judgment takes place. Paul clearly
indicated that there was more than one age to come. If you don't
agree with that, you'll have to take it up with him.



.

 

[timlamb]

all rulle and authority are put away In 1 Corinthians but Revelations ends with rule and authority and power in place.

Earthly rule and authority will end, Christ rule will be handed over to the Father, but God reigns "forever, eternally". read in context!

 

[timlamb]

Wow, very defensive post! If anything I've said so far were
truly false in your estimation, it wouldn't be bothering you so much.
People tend to get angry when they suspect they could be wrong
about concepts they've held near and dear to their hearts for so
long.

Let the Son shine in!

No, I get angry when I see scripture hacked and abused for false teaching

 

[timlamb]

Depends on when you think judgment takes place. Paul clearly
indicated that there was more than one age to come. If you don't
agree with that, you'll have to take it up with him.



.

And you will have to take it up with Jesus why you mis-quote and add to HIS word. And I actually feel sorry for you in that!

 

[timlamb]

Depends on when you think judgment takes place. Paul clearly
indicated that there was more than one age to come. If you don't
agree with that, you'll have to take it up with him.



.

why don't you quote scripture unstead of mis-interpreting it for us!