Universalism

[preistsplace]

The punishment for sin is death, and not the first death, we all experience that now that Adam and Eve fell. There is only ONE way and ONE name given under heaven by which we must be saved, and that is through Jesus Christ. Either He pays for our sin and we are made heirs or we reject the offer and face the second death. Punishment for rejecting the Messiah, the only way of salvation offered to mankind is the second death from which there will be no resurrection. The Lake of Fire is a permanent judgment, not a refining fire. The beast, nor the false prophet nor those who go their way will ever come out of Lake of Fire, they will be destroyed by it and will no longer exist thereafter. Read and study the Book of Revelation.

Calvin Tyer

The book of revealation says in the King James version that the Beast and the false prophet and the devil and all of his angels will be tortured day and night forever and ever....
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. kjv
A more precise translation says unto the age of the ages...
Rev 20:10 and, the Adversary that had been deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where were both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented, day and night, unto the ages of ages. Rotherhams
or eons of the eons.......
Rev 20:10 And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons."....CLV
Age of ages and eons of eons do not suggest immediate anniahlation , it suggests that they will be punished for their sins and for a very long time.....
Also the lake of fire is symbolical or can you tell me where you have seen death manifest in a way that it can be detroyed by throwing it into fire. Death is not a person or thing it is an event how do you destroy an event in a literal fire?............
Also In 1 Corinthians.....
1Co 15:25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
Death is abolished after all has been placed under his feet..in submission to Him....Death is abolished first and second

 

[LJSGM]

There's really no logic in universalism either in this way in that God could make everyone holy or repentant now. Why doesn't he?

It's best then to look at the scriptures for answers because our logic is insufficient.

 

[LJSGM]

The book of revealation says in the King James version that the Beast and the false prophet and the devil and all of his angels will be tortured day and night forever and ever....
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. kjv

I believe that Sodom and gormorrah was going to burn "forever and ever." To me, it's metaphorical language in revelations, proven by the fact that John uses other metaphorical language in other places as he's describing his vision. For instance, is there really "day and night" in hell?

 

[timlamb]

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
The last enemy to be destroyed is death first and second...
This is the whole truth

you are adding to the word of God with the line about the first and second, THOSE DEAD IN CHRIST ARE PHYSICALLY DEAD AND SPIRITUALLY DEAD BEFORE THEY GO INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE, along with death. This scripture says nothing about returning from the Lake of Fire in love and repentance.

It's the truth alright, but it doens't help your case at all.

 

[LJSGM]

Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

 

[timlamb]

And since this is a philosophy forum can anyone philosophically explain how it is just and loving to create flawed beings and punish them eternally for being flawed?

We seem to forget that God created the angels and all beings, including Satan and his demons. They are without a doubt cast into the Lake of Fire, and Universalist minds don't seem to be concerned. Are THEY freed when they repent?

I think it was CS Lewis who pointed out, since you like philosophy, that the creatures with the greates potential for good also have the greatest pontential for evil. A cow in the pasture has very little potential for performing good deeds, but is no threat to the soul of man.

It doesn't make sence to us. We would never think to create something with the power to reject us and work outside out wills, but to creat something in OUR image that is exactly what we get. Why does the tree of the knowledge of good and evil contain evil? because it is part of knowledge. God does not use evil, given the choice we do. We had to be given the ability to be evil to have the potential for AGAPE love, and God will complete those who desire to be loved and love in this fashon.

The fall, mans choice for self, began a decay of creation and it would destroy it's self it it God did not intervien. Scripture says if allowed to finish we no flesh would be saved. The spiritual birth begins that return to perfection, and the new bodies will complete the rebirth in the resurrection.

His ways are not ours. He has a good purpose for those who follow. it is a perfect purpose, and would be something less if it were made to our understanding.

I will be gone for the next 36 hours and the way this is going I'll likely miss more than I can recover,

Blessings and may TRUTH reign.

 

[Nadiine]

The book of revealation says in the King James version that the Beast and the false prophet and the devil and all of his angels will be tortured day and night forever and ever....

And the beast & false prophet are human men.
(the counterfiet trinity).

 

[preistsplace]

Tim Lamb look at the context for the scripture you quoted...When you say that God's ways are higher than ours that particular verse is in the context of mercy it is very natural for mankind to condemn his enemies. What Christ did on the Cross was not of this world. He did not fight violence with violence he fought violence with mercy, he prayed for those that put him on the cross, (all of humanity) that they might be forgiven and by the very work he did the path for forgiveness was given.At times during his ministry Christ rebuked, but it was a correcting rebuke. The whole time he was teaching . The scripture clearly states that he is the same yesterday today and tommorrow. He doesnt change . The Lord does not cast off forever..He does not change. He is love He is righteous and he is just and these are not seperate sides of the coin they all go together there is love in his righteousness and judgment and vice versa.
As far as God not using evil remember that he works all things according to his will.If it were only the Good things then It would have said so. There is nothing that God cannot use to His purposes.
Often when we talk of salvation we are not clear as of what we are saved from...
This is very important....

 

[preistsplace]

of course the King James as I said in my post is not an accurate translation of the verse.

 

[preistsplace]

There's really no logic in universalism either in this way in that God could make everyone holy or repentant now. Why doesn't he?

It's best then to look at the scriptures for answers because our logic is insufficient.

He also could have sent Christ before the flood, but he waited. And of course he could convert the whole world now.However God is Good and for us to truly appreciate what good is and How good he is I beleive that has placed us to in this messed up world to experience evil and to learn how to overcome evil. And of course we are looking to scripture for ansewers....Blessings

 

[rcorlew]

One major problem, and I mean super major is the application of the epistles towards the doctrine of salvation. The epistles were written to those who had already received salvation, not to those who were seeking salvation. The four gospels of Christ are all the doctrine of salvation.

To put it more clearly, it is like trying to learn how to drive by reading a repair manual on your car. The gospels teach you how to drive and the epistles are your repair manual to keep you on the path.

By all means do not take this from me, I beg of you to let Jesus speak the truth.

Mat 13:24-30 The wheat and the darnel
He put another parable before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field,

but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away.

So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also.

And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?'

He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' So the servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?'

But he said, 'No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them.

Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"

The Bible was assembled in the order it is in for a very important reason;

1. The books of the law describe to us what sin is
2. The prophets tell us the Messiah is coming
3. The Gospels are the good news of Christ, the Son of God
4. The epistles tell us how to maintain faithfulness and live Christian lives
5. Revelation, well cause we need to know when the King is arriving

 

[rcorlew]

He also could have sent Christ before the flood, but he waited. And of course he could convert the whole world now.However God is Good and for us to truly appreciate what good is and How good he is I beleive that has placed us to in this messed up world to experience evil and to learn how to overcome evil. And of course we are looking to scripture for ansewers....Blessings

The problem is that by design we are evil and slaves to sin, we cannot overcome the evil and lust within our hearts, it is only the Spirit of Christ that dwells in the heart of the humbled and repentant soul that overcomes.

 

[Nadiine]

One major problem, and I mean super major is the application of the epistles towards the doctrine of salvation. The epistles were written to those who had already received salvation, not to those who were seeking salvation. The four gospels of Christ are all the doctrine of salvation.

To put it more clearly, it is like trying to learn how to drive by reading a repair manual on your car. The gospels teach you how to drive and the epistles are your repair manual to keep you on the path.

By all means do not take this from me, I beg of you to let Jesus speak the truth.

Mat 13:24-30 The wheat and the darnel
He put another parable before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field,

but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away.

So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also.

And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?'

He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' So the servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?'

But he said, 'No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them.

Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"

The Bible was assembled in the order it is in for a very important reason;

1. The books of the law describe to us what sin is
2. The prophets tell us the Messiah is coming
3. The Gospels are the good news of Christ, the Son of God
4. The epistles tell us how to maintain faithfulness and live Christian lives
5. Revelation, well cause we need to know when the King is arriving

This is why I have said several times that alot of "reading in" has to
be done by Universalists - the minute you take the verse into its full
context and to the audience being addressed, it loses all meaning
they to ascribe onto it.

Someone used a verse in Lamentations to support Universalism -
problem is, it was about ISRAEL itself and God's judgments against
it, not the entire lost world that will be rescued at the end.

Universalism has to be read in becuz it is not taught in the scriptures.

 

[Nadiine]

Tim Lamb look at the context for the scripture you quoted...When you say that God's ways are higher than ours that particular verse is in the context of mercy it is very natural for mankind to condemn his enemies. What Christ did on the Cross was not of this world. He did not fight violence with violence he fought violence with mercy, he prayed for those that put him on the cross, (all of humanity) that they might be forgiven and by the very work he did the path for forgiveness was given.At times during his ministry Christ rebuked, but it was a correcting rebuke. The whole time he was teaching . The scripture clearly states that he is the same yesterday today and tommorrow. He doesnt change . The Lord does not cast off forever..He does not change. He is love He is righteous and he is just and these are not seperate sides of the coin they all go together there is love in his righteousness and judgment and vice versa.
As far as God not using evil remember that he works all things according to his will.If it were only the Good things then It would have said so. There is nothing that God cannot use to His purposes.
Often when we talk of salvation we are not clear as of what we are saved from...
This is very important....

Cast off who forever? Israel? Becuz in Lamentations 3 where that verse
comes from, God is reciting His judgment to Israel (it's a lamentation for Israel) -
Israel is His chosen land and the Jews are His chosen people.
To use Lamentations to prove Universal salvation isn't close to
accurate in context.

God CANNOT cast off Israel forever becuz His promises all thru
scripture are that after God is done working with the Gentiles, He
turns His focus back onto Israel and sends restoration after their
persecution. (Romans 11).

That promise also refutes the replacement Theologies floating
around as if God is done with Israel and the church has replaced
her.
Micah 4:7
And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation:
and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

The same Bible however DOES say that God will not strive with
man forever.

At times during his ministry Christ rebuked, but it was a correcting rebuke. The whole time he was teaching . The scripture clearly states that he is the same yesterday today and tommorrow. He doesnt change

In this passage you ignore key facts elsewhere in scripture as to
God's entire mission -
Jesus didn't COME to judge (this time). His mission was to seek
and save that which was lost. You're comparing Jesus' mission of Salvation to atone for sin and bring a grace covenant, to God having to
be the same yesterday today and forever in the same sence of
'never judging or punishing anyone'....
But He didn't come for that - in fact, that's what the Jews were
expecting their Messiah to do; deliver them physically from their
enemies.

Let's look closely at that - since God IS the same, how do you
account for all the harsh judgments and punishments thruout the
OT? Even in Acts Ananias & Sapphira were given a death penalty
for lying to God's Spirit.

That's God too. You're strictly using Jesus' first earthly Mission as God's
entire plan and method,
But scripture proves that His method has not always been
the same; He gave harsh punishment & judgment prior to a Grace
Covenant.
He is the same becuz He is LOVE - but when the time is up and when Christ returns, He returns as Judge of the nations and will pour out His wrath on the unregenerate world.
BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: Rev 19:16-21;;

HE IS the same God of the OT as the New;
He is pure love and He is righteous Judge. Until we understand
His attributes, we will not understand Him in any fullness and
carry distorted views.

Hebrews 10:27-29
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

James 2:13
For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy;
mercy triumphs over judgment.

By the way, mercy is even 'read into' by Universalists. To a Universalist,
mercy usually means "no judgment or no punishment" at all.
But mercy does not mean that - one can be merciful in judgment
and still give harsh punishment... just not as harsh as it would or
could have been.

There are degrees in both realms; degrees of reward and degrees
of punishment. All will enter both/different realms, but all will
recieve different reward or punishments due to what they did
during their life.
Even the lost will be spared harsher penalties than others will
recieve for their evil actions.

People should never assume that God's mercy is without any
punishment or harshness.

 

[Nadiine]

Good point Nadiine

The other point here being it could be believed that upon seeing God face to face they might change their hearts, but under extreem duress; after being cut to peices or thown as a "worthless servant"? The might beg for mercy but they are not going to enter into a loving relationship of trust

The thing about repentance while in the lake of fire is that
whatever their level of 'torment' is (some Christian scholars believe
that the torment is solely lack of God's presence, not literal fire),
it's very similar to the Judas repentance.

Judas wasn't truly repentant, otherwise, he wouldn't have been
called the 'son of perdition'. Once the unrepentant hit their
final destination, are they actually repentant about their sin?
(namely sin of refusing Christ's saving blood to cover them)
Or are they seeking to get out of their punishment?

If they were unrepentant to their death, I have no reason to even
believe that they'de somehow be GENUINELY sorry for their evils
when they didn't consider them evil prior.

God HAS BEEN working in souls all along - John 16 the Holy Spirit
is and has been convicting the world of their sin. All the while, century
after century, they reject what they know inwardly (Rom 1, all are
without excuse) which is given to them by God.

Then, all of a sudden, AFTER seeing God manifested to them, and
as they go into their punishment, ALL OF A SUDDEN they see the
light and feel horrible for their sins?
They will want out of the unpleasant situation and that would most
likely override any genuine repentance - repentance they never
felt or responded to previously as God worked in them.
(back to gnashing of teeth; anger & derision against God).

We're told that TODAY is the day of salvation, and not to harden
our hearts, and do not put it off; to test ourselves to see if we're
in the faith. WHY then?
IF we all got saved anyways, these are quite pointless warnings
and admonishments.

 

[Tissue]

Paul Washer has spoken the truth. Universalism is a lie from the father of lies.

Seems to me that Satan spreads lies so as to increase the population of hell. But how does the story of Universalism increase the number of souls that enter hell? Do not forget; Universalism also places an emphasis upon repentance.

 

[rcorlew]

Universilism places 0 importance on repentence, although Tissue you do not seem to suffer from what is true Universalism.

 

[Tissue]

Universilism places 0 importance on repentence

You must be thinking of Unitarian Universalism, then, which is not what I mean. The idea (and many others who adhere to Christianity while denying Unitarianism) is that those who do not die in Christ must be purified in hell for a time (thousands of years? millions?), after which they will be reconciled. Obviously it would be far better to die in Christ than otherwise.

And, of course, repentance is about far more than simply 'getting out of hell'.

 

[preistsplace]

Again I say that God is love His judgements must support that. If the bible merely said that God was loving it could be reasonably assumed thatJudgment and love could be seperated but because the bible Clearly says God is love.....
1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love(agape) .
One cannot seperate ones being from what one does. If I AM just then every act that I do has to be Just.If I am love I have to be love in all that I do. Love cannot be separated from judgment or punishment.
1Co 13:4 Charity(agape) suffereth long, and is kind; charity(agape) envieth not; charity(agape) vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity(agape) never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Love never fails And God is love . His Judgements are loving His punishments are loving. Does the Creator of love some and others not? Is he partial or fickle . Certainly he has made some vessels to honor and some to dishonor, but does that mean that he cannot remake them after they no longer serve his purpose?
And what of Justice?Some might here argue that because he is just he must "eternally" punish or torment. Where in all of scripture is eternal punishment of sins proclaimed. (Here be it known that I do not claim that misinterpretaions of very few verses have led the mass of men astray on this point.)
Gods Law- the punishment for sin was death from the very beginning.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Exo 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Exo 22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.
Exo 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
Deu 22:21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
Deu 22:22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
Deu 22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
The Harshest punishments of the law for the impure were that the be killed.
Lev 24:20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
The punishment was to be an eye for an eye. It then logically follows that God's punishment is carefully measured. Can you measure carefully the immeasurable? I think not. Can you make a case that the punishment for sin is eternal?If so then why wern't the Israelites warned about this? Does it not seem that if this were to be the punishment for sin that God himself would have told Adam in the Garden of Eden?

 

[preistsplace]

Nadine- As far as repentance In the Lake Of Fire, after we are judged we are not delivered until we have paid the Uttermost farthing.
Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.