Universalism

[timlamb]

Weeping and gnashing of teeth happen all the time, and they don't
cancel out repentance. Sometimes weeping and teeth-gnashing can
accompany repentance. Is there anything about the act of weeping
and gnashing one's teeth (I've done both at one time or
another ) that we should assume is unceasing in nature?



.

Matthew 24:51
He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:30
And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

I'll say it again,"Somehow I have trouble seeing THIS as part of God's redemptive process!"

 

[Nadiine]

Gnashing of teeth in biblical context is derision - anger against.

It's just the opposite of a repentant heart, it's someone strongly against
another.

If this is a place where they're penitant & turning to God, gnashing of teeth is the wrong grammar.

 

[Nadiine]

Maybe this would be a good time to ask anyone again to provide
us with the passage(s) that shows the lost repenting and
being released by God from any torment anywhere....

? ? ?


I ask, becuz usually a doctrine is directly taught somewhere -
a good place to see this so-called doctrine would be at the
tale end of Revelation after the lost are thrown into the
Lake of Fire with Satan & all his angels ...
FOREVER AND EVER.
?

 

[timlamb]

Gnashing of teeth in biblical context is derision - anger against.

It's just the opposite of a repentant heart, it's someone strongly against
another.

If this is a place where they're penitant & turning to God, gnashing of teeth is the wrong grammar.

Good point Nadiine

The other point here being it could be believed that upon seeing God face to face they might change their hearts, but under extreem duress; after being cut to peices or thown as a "worthless servant"? The might beg for mercy but they are not going to enter into a loving relationship of trust

 

[timlamb]

Maybe this would be a good time to ask anyone again to provide
us with the passage(s) that shows the lost repenting and
being released by God from any torment anywhere....

? ? ?


I ask, becuz usually a doctrine is directly taught somewhere -
a good place to see this so-called doctrine would be at the
tale end of Revelation after the lost are thrown into the
Lake of Fire with Satan & all his angels ...
FOREVER AND EVER.
?

It IS hard teaching, but it is truth:


3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
5And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new " And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
6Then He said to me, "It is done I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
7"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

 

[timlamb]

The one who overcomes is who inherits the kingdom.

1 John 5:4
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

1 John 5:5
Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Revelation 2:7
' He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

If you do not overcome the world, how can you overcome the Lake of Fire?

 

[Rajni]

Matthew 24:51
He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:30
And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

I'll say it again,"Somehow I have trouble seeing THIS as part of God's redemptive process!"

Perhaps someone else can answer this for me.

Weeping and gnashing of teeth happen all the time, whether it be in
anger and unrepentance or some other reason. However, an
unrepentant state is no guarantee of no repentance down the line.
How many of us were unrepentant prior to repenting? The fact that
someone repents means that they were in an unrepentant state
previously from which they repented.

So, again, I ask: Is there anything about the act of weeping
and gnashing one's teeth that we should assume is unceasing in
nature?





.

 

[timlamb]

Perhaps someone else can answer this for me.

Weeping and gnashing of teeth happen all the time, whether it be in
anger and unrepentance or some other reason. However, an
unrepentant state is no guarantee of no repentance down the line.
How many of us were unrepentant prior to repenting? The fact that
someone repents means that they were in an unrepentant state
previously from which they repented.

So, again, I ask: Is there anything about the act of weeping
and gnashing one's teeth that we should assume is unceasing in
nature?

Perhaps you missed Nadiines post?

Nadiine: Gnashing of teeth in biblical context is derision - anger against.

It's just the opposite of a repentant heart, it's someone strongly against
another.

If this is a place where they're penitant & turning to God, gnashing of teeth is the wrong grammar.

Or you missed the rest of these verses above, about being cut to pieces and thrown out as a worthless servant into the darkness.

Or you missed this post:
timlambThe one who overcomes is who inherits the kingdom.

1 John 5:4
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

1 John 5:5
Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Revelation 2:7
' He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

If you do not overcome the world, how can you overcome the Lake of Fire?

You must be missing something to think the Lake of Fire is all about crying and grinding your teeth.

 

[Poverello78]

If no one will be punished 'eternally' for sin, and the worst is right now, I'm gonna go have me some fun!

 

[Tissue]

That would explain your confusion.

Confusion? I'm not confused. I'm disagreeing.

Sorry to keep bumping this up but I'm waiting for someone to respond to it.

People on threads like these are good at leapfroging over posts they cannot answer. The begin arguing philosophy rather then scripture and pretty sone they dodged the bullit.

Well, after all, this is the Christian Philosophy & Ethics sub-forum.

Philosophy is an entirely valid component of this conversation. In fact, I daresay a conversation that consisted solely of Scripture, and did not include any philosophy at all, would be two-dimensional at best, and entirely off-focus at worst. Philosophy and theology are married.

If you don't believe scripture to be the inspired word of God, as Tissue shared, then we don't have much to talk about becasue we know of God's plan and intentions by His word. But if you do believe scripture you need to start reading and discussing the posts so we can understand your interpretation better.

I believe Scripture is inspired, but I believe Jesus is the Word of God.

If this is what keeps us from having a conversation, then I will stress that I affirm the value of Scripture. I will also stress that you might be more successful in your arguments against us if you included some philosophy. We don't find your arguments based upon your beliefs of Scripture to be very compelling.

 

[Rajni]

Perhaps you missed Nadiines post? Nadiine: Gnashing of teeth in biblical context is derision - anger against.

Yep, I saw it, which is why you might have noticed I indicated that
“Weeping and gnashing of teeth happen all the time, whether it be
in anger and unrepentance or some other reason.”

It's just the opposite of a repentant heart, it's someone strongly against another.

It very well could be, yes.

If this is a place where they're penitant & turning to God, gnashing of teeth is the wrong grammar.

But one can’t be penitent and turning to God unless one was first in
a state of nonrepentance and turned away from God (weeping and
gnashing optional), right? Everyone starts out in the former state
before winding up in the latter state. It's been proven to be a
temporary frame of mind.

It’s also helpful to remember that even repentance itself is granted
to us by God – we don’t do it in and of ourselves:

Acts 5:31 – “God exalted Him to His own right hand as
Prince and Savior that He might give repentance and
forgiveness of sins to Israel.”

Acts 11:18 – “When they heard this, they had no
further objections and praised God, saying, ‘So then,
God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

2 Timothy 2:25: “Those who oppose him he must
gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them
repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,”

Hebrews 12:17: Afterward, as you know, when he
wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could
bring about no change of mind (a.k.a. “repentance&#8221,
though he sought the blessing with tears.
​

Repentance is a gift of God. We can’t do it ourselves that we could
be credited for it. So essentially He’s the one placing them into
the Lake of Fire. Now, if He were a God of only justice and wrath,
that would make sense that He would just let them roast there
forever and/or be annihilated. But since Scripture also characterizes
Him as a God of Love (actually, He is Love) and Mercy, His putting
people in a lake of fire endlessly or annihilating them just because
they lacked something that only He could give them is a bit harder
to digest.

1 John 5:4
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

Amen!

1 John 5:5
Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Amen!

Revelation 2:7
' He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

If you do not overcome the world, how can you overcome the Lake of Fire?

Well, we don’t do any overcoming of either until such a time as God
bestows upon us the ability to do so. We need to be born of God
(notice the term “born” – being born is something that is done to a
person, not something that they do whenever the mood strikes
them). If it were something we do when we feel like doing it, God
wouldn’t have used the metaphor “born” of God or “born” again.
That which is being born is a passive participant in the process.




.

 

[Nadiine]

Well then Chaela, show us AFTER these people are dead
that they're repenting and 'believing' and converting...

Again, salvation comes by FAITH, not PROOF after you've
seen God in His domain and stand at judgment being
sentenced for your sin.

You can continue all day long on your observations, but
they don't prove what you're saying they do.
And Tim's verses support salvation ONLY to those who are
saved BY FAITH.

When salvation stops being by faith, you would have a bit
more of an argument (very little) but more than you have now.

What is faith? Seeing God proven beyond all doubt at the Great White throne judgment?

Sorry, that's not what the Bible teaches. (and using your
repetoir of "repentance" verses doesn't change salvation comes
by FAITH).

 

[timlamb]

Confusion? I'm not confused. I'm disagreeing.



Well, after all, this is the Christian Philosophy & Ethics sub-forum.

Philosophy is an entirely valid component of this conversation. In fact, I daresay a conversation that consisted solely of Scripture, and did not include any philosophy at all, would be two-dimensional at best, and entirely off-focus at worst. Philosophy and theology are married.



I believe Scripture is inspired, but I believe Jesus is the Word of God.

If this is what keeps us from having a conversation, then I will stress that I affirm the value of Scripture. I will also stress that you might be more successful in your arguments against us if you included some philosophy. We don't find your arguments based upon your beliefs of Scripture to be very compelling.

I have contributed some phiosophy:

It does seem strange that some people like us for our humanness and others for our spirit, but seldom does someone like us for both.

I think this ties to what happens when we go beyond this world. When we lose the worldlyness and we become spirit only, are our spirits compatable. We who have been born of the Spirit are like-spirited, and will share that with God. Those not born of the spirit will not be happy in the presence of the spirit just as they are not right now. And we will know them for who they are in the spirit and understand why God must reject them.

When God and the world divide, the choice will be eternal. This has already happened at death for mutitudes.

But when bad philosophy is going around the only way to correct it is scripture. Because there are ways that seem right to a man that lead to death. The word of God is more powerful and truthful than anyones philosophy.

 

[timlamb]

Yep, I saw it, which is why you might have noticed I indicated that
“Weeping and gnashing of teeth happen all the time, whether it be
in anger and unrepentance or some other reason.”

It very well could be, yes.


But one can’t be penitent and turning to God unless one was first in
a state of nonrepentance and turned away from God (weeping and
gnashing optional), right? Everyone starts out in the former state
before winding up in the latter state. It's been proven to be a
temporary frame of mind.

It’s also helpful to remember that even repentance itself is granted
to us by God – we don’t do it in and of ourselves:

Acts 5:31 – “God exalted Him to His own right hand as
Prince and Savior that He might give repentance and
forgiveness of sins to Israel.”

Acts 11:18 – “When they heard this, they had no
further objections and praised God, saying, ‘So then,
God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

2 Timothy 2:25: “Those who oppose him he must
gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them
repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,”

Hebrews 12:17: Afterward, as you know, when he
wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could
bring about no change of mind (a.k.a. “repentance”),
though he sought the blessing with tears.
​

Repentance is a gift of God. We can’t do it ourselves that we could
be credited for it. So essentially He’s the one placing them into
the Lake of Fire. Now, if He were a God of only justice and wrath,
that would make sense that He would just let them roast there
forever and/or be annihilated. But since Scripture also characterizes
Him as a God of Love (actually, He is Love) and Mercy, His putting
people in a lake of fire endlessly or annihilating them just because
they lacked something that only He could give them is a bit harder
to digest.


Amen!


Amen!


Well, we don’t do any overcoming of either until such a time as God
bestows upon us the ability to do so. We need to be born of God
(notice the term “born” – being born is something that is done to a
person, not something that they do whenever the mood strikes
them). If it were something we do when we feel like doing it, God
wouldn’t have used the metaphor “born” of God or “born” again.
That which is being born is a passive participant in the process.




.

You make us sound like puppets. Until God pulls the strings nothing happens. We can do nothing that He doesn't allow, but we have a will and a spirit and a mind, and we have choices.

You guys talk like all the problems of the world are God's fault. Everything is God's fault and He has to make it right by getting us all saved and into heaven, right? I think I understand your problem because if I believed like you I'd think God owed me too. If I believed it was up to God to get me saved then I'd be mad as heck if I had to suffer any wrath or do any "Hell time" for my sins, cuz He could have stopped me sooner according to you.

You guys spend too much time in philosophy class and not enough time in the word.

 

[rcorlew]

Why does it seem that some universalists overlook some very key doctrines of salvation. The key doctrine is mercy, but let us not take my word on that, I rest solely on the authority of the Spirit as made evident by Paul who quoted Hosea and Moses and Isaiah in Romans chapter 9.

Romans 9:25-29
And he says in Hosea "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"

and

"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ' you are not my people' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"

Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality."

It is just as Isaiah had said previously:

"Unless the Lord Almighty had left us with descendants, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah."

One key point from the passage that is inherently important; not all the Jews were saved; which would inductively mean that not all humans are saved.

I also caution those who read this thread,

Romans 16:17-20
I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.

For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

For your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, but I want you to be wise as to what is good and innocent as to what is evil.

The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

Matthew 7:8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

You have to choose now,

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

There are those who's names are blotted out of the Book of Life:

Revelation 3:2-5
Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.

Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.

Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy.

The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

 

[rcorlew]

Confusion? I'm not confused. I'm disagreeing.

Well, after all, this is the Christian Philosophy & Ethics sub-forum.

Philosophy is an entirely valid component of this conversation. In fact, I daresay a conversation that consisted solely of Scripture, and did not include any philosophy at all, would be two-dimensional at best, and entirely off-focus at worst. Philosophy and theology are married.

The problem is that all too often the theology that people base their philosophy on are completely opposed to the sound doctrines presented by Christ. A scriptural dissertation can contain theology, doctrine and philosophy; in short, the cycle that produces philosophy should be in direct opposition to the position taken by many as those who bear witness on this forum are able to afford us the luxury of seeing the fruit of this idiomatic clouding of that which has been clearly spelled out in the four Gospels.

The cycle one uses to produce sound philosophy should then be like that of Paul; sound doctrine based on on the authority of scripture produces good theology, a good theology based on sound doctrine produces a good philosophy.

As can be abundantly witnessed throughout all of the forum boards is this:
people have a philosophy that they have developed throughout their life, they then use this philosophy to indoctrinate theology into their perception of the world, they then take this inherently self focused theology to weigh key doctrines which will undoubtedly be contrary to the theology that they have accepted.

 

[Tissue]

But when bad philosophy is going around the only way to correct it is scripture. Because there are ways that seem right to a man that lead to death. The word of God is more powerful and truthful than anyones philosophy.

Problem is, that doesn't work. Philosophy is much more basic than you seem to think it is. We interpret Scripture according to our philosophical inclinations. For fundamentalists, one of their philosophical inclinations is foundationalism. For Wesleyans, one of their philosophical inclinations is the existence of free will and its consistency with God's omniscience. For Baptists, it is determinism.

 

[preistsplace]

The problem is that all too often the theology that people base their philosophy on are completely opposed to the sound doctrines presented by Christ. A scriptural dissertation can contain theology, doctrine and philosophy; in short, the cycle that produces philosophy should be in direct opposition to the position taken by many as those who bear witness on this forum are able to afford us the luxury of seeing the fruit of this idiomatic clouding of that which has been clearly spelled out in the four Gospels.

Yes thought the one put forward in the Gosepls..If it were so clear we would not be having this conversation,and may I also remind you the Jesus did not present it "Clearly" he spoke in parables purposefuly so that
the people would not understand him!!! I ask you to reconcile this with an all powerful being who is love, and your christian theology.

The cycle one uses to produce sound philosophy should then be like that of Paul; sound doctrine based on on the authority of scripture produces good theology, a good theology based on sound doctrine produces a good philosophy.

Amen

As can be abundantly witnessed throughout all of the forum boards is this:
people have a philosophy that they have developed throughout their life, they then use this philosophy to indoctrinate theology into their perception of the world, they then take this inherently self focused theology to weigh key doctrines which will undoubtedly be contrary to the theology that they have accepted.

How could you say that your opinion is obvious...in otherwords than if this is true you can tell when it happened and why from this forum..........

 

[preistsplace]

.

1 John 5:4
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

1 John 5:5
Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Revelation 2:7
' He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

If you do not overcome the world, how can you overcome the Lake of Fire?

You must be missing something to think the Lake of Fire is all about crying and grinding your teeth.

If you do not overcom the world them the lake of fire overcomes you....
If you dont overcome the world/flesh than the lake of fire overcomes it
And remember everyone will be salted with fire...........

 

[preistsplace]

And everyone ignores what they cannot agree with, even scripture:

3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
5And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new " And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
6Then He said to me, "It is done I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
7"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

This is the truth!

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
The last enemy to be destroyed is death first and second...
This is the whole truth