Universalism

[Nadiine]

Yes Nadiine, well said!!

Especially the chronology of Revelation 21, the new beginning:
Verse 5- 5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!"(EVERYTHING BEING MADE PERFECT) Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." (JOHN INSTRUCTED TO GET THIS FOR THE RECORD)
vERSE 6- 6He said to me: "It is done. (THAT'S IT, COMPLETED)I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.(AND ETERNAL LIFE IS RESTORED TO MAN)
vERSE 7- 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. (WHO INHERITS THE KINGDOM? THE OVERCOMER!)
VERSE 8- 8 But(AND WHO DOES NOT INHERIT...) the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars(...THOSE WHO REMAIN IN THEIR SIN)—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

HOW CAN THIS NOT BE UNDERSTOOD?

Hey that's a great point, I hadn't noticed that before.

All I can say is, I think it's understood, but denied becuz it
isn't happy news, and there are ways to use other verses
to try to make it not the case.

Honestly, I think it's just man's will to want this not to be
true? It's all I can think of when it's written so clearly.

 

[Rajni]

Revelation 22:17: The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him
who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and
whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
​

I brought this up earlier in the thread. I'll bring it up again, as
I saw no response to the questions I asked about it.

In the above verse, to whom is this invitation being offered if
everyone else was already doomed to endless torment (or outright
annihilation) in the Lake of Fire? Why, if everything has been
resolved and the unsaved are discarded irrevocably, is there a Tree
for the healing of the nations in Revelation 22? What more healing
would need to be done if all that's left are already-healed saved
people?








.

 

[timlamb]

Revelation 22:17: The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him
who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and
whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

​

I brought this up earlier in the thread. I'll bring it up again, as
I saw no response to the questions I asked about it.

In the above verse, to whom is this invitation being offered if
everyone else was already doomed to endless torment (or outright
annihilation) in the Lake of Fire? Why, if everything has been
resolved and the unsaved are discarded irrevocably, is there a Tree
for the healing of the nations in Revelation 22? What more healing
would need to be done if all that's left are already-healed saved
people?








.

In verse 16, just prior, Jesus says these are the things He sent His angel to tell us. John has returned to his present day and writes the final things the angel told him. We know who the Spirit is, and the Bride, the Body of Christ, they are to put out the invitation, to share the Good News, and all who hear are to do the same. And the message is still relevant today, if you thirst, come to the living water.

John continues in verse 18 telling us some of the strongest admonition to come from Jesus:
18I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;

19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. 20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly " Amen Come, Lord Jesus.

if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

To lose the sharing of the tree of life! I'm going to leave this book in tact!

I just noticed something in verse 18, if adding to the book brings the wrath to us, then it must be true that those who believe and respect the words of this book avoid the wrath. Is that another confirming verse for a pre-trib rapture?

 

[preistsplace]

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
And not one of the Traditional Theology people find these verses rare....
God Loves everyone God is no respecter of Persons, God gave His only begotten son to save us from our sin. We are in agreement that the sacrifice of Christ was for the sin of the world( all of it, atonement for every sin committed). You say that the penalty of sin is eternity in hell( although the Bible has always stated death Rom 6:23, Gen 2:17). Here we have God saying to let the unjust be just and the wicked wicked.....even though he gave his only begotten son on the cross for their sins......If I go to McDonald's and spend 10$ on happy meals and chocolate shakes and they don't give me everything I payed for I go back and get what I was missing....Thats me with ten dollars and you say God with the blood of his Son says oh its ok....

 

[preistsplace]

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
To destroy the last enemy it has to be completely destroyed in all forms both first and second.........

 

[timlamb]

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
And not one of the Traditional Theology people find these verses rare....
God Loves everyone God is no respecter of Persons, God gave His only begotten son to save us from our sin. We are in agreement that the sacrifice of Christ was for the sin of the world( all of it, atonement for every sin committed). You say that the penalty of sin is eternity in hell( although the Bible has always stated death Rom 6:23, Gen 2:17). Here we have God saying to let the unjust be just and the wicked wicked.....even though he gave his only begotten son on the cross for their sins......If I go to McDonald's and spend 10$ on happy meals and chocolate shakes and they don't give me everything I payed for I go back and get what I was missing....Thats me with ten dollars and you say God with the blood of his Son says oh its ok....

I think this follows the "As in the days of Noah" thing. There will be unrighteous and righteous until the end.

 

[timlamb]

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
To destroy the last enemy it has to be completely destroyed in all forms both first and second.........

I believe he is speaking of an enemy of the saved. Death is thrown into the Lake of Fire at the last judgement along with those who's names are not written in the book of Life. All death ends at the Great White Throne Judgement.!

 

[timlamb]

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
And not one of the Traditional Theology people find these verses rare....
God Loves everyone God is no respecter of Persons, God gave His only begotten son to save us from our sin. We are in agreement that the sacrifice of Christ was for the sin of the world( all of it, atonement for every sin committed). You say that the penalty of sin is eternity in hell( although the Bible has always stated death Rom 6:23, Gen 2:17). Here we have God saying to let the unjust be just and the wicked wicked.....even though he gave his only begotten son on the cross for their sins......If I go to McDonald's and spend 10$ on happy meals and chocolate shakes and they don't give me everything I payed for I go back and get what I was missing....Thats me with ten dollars and you say God with the blood of his Son says oh its ok....

We quote scripture, irrefutable truth, that man, unrepentant, will die spiritual death.

 

[Rajni]

In verse 16, just prior, Jesus says these are the things He sent His angel to tell us. John has returned to his present day and writes the final things the angel told him. We know who the Spirit is, and the Bride, the Body of Christ, they are to put out the invitation, to share the Good News, and all who hear are to do the same. And the message is still relevant today, if you thirst, come to the living water.

I see, so the admonition of the Spirit and the Bride could be prior to
the final end, and their invitation is for this age as opposed to the
new-heavens/earth age to come. That does make sense.

Another passage I find compelling is further up, in
Revelation 22:1-5:

1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of
life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God
and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street
of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of
life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every
month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of
the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The
throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his
servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his
name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more
night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light
of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And
they will reign for ever and ever.
​

This portion sounds very much like it's taking place in the new
heavens/new earth setting, at which point the unsaved wicked
would already have been either thrown into the Lake of
Fire forever and/or annihilated completely. If that's the case,
and there's no hope of recovery for those still in need of it, why is
there a tree bearing leaves for the healing of the nations? Who
would need healing at that point if only already-healed saved
righteous people remained?



.

 

[timlamb]

I see, so the admonition of the Spirit and the Bride could be prior to
the final end, and their invitation is for this age as opposed to the
new-heavens/earth age to come. That does make sense.

Another passage I find compelling is further up, in
Revelation 22:1-5:

1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of
life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God
and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street
of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of
life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every
month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of
the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The
throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his
servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his
name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more
night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light
of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And
they will reign for ever and ever.
​

This portion sounds very much like it's taking place in the new
heavens/new earth setting, at which point the unsaved wicked
would already have been either thrown into the Lake of
Fire forever and/or annihilated completely. If that's the case,
and there's no hope of recovery for those still in need of it, why is
there a tree bearing leaves for the healing of the nations? Who
would need healing at that point if only already-healed saved
righteous people remained?



.

Wow, you ask really good questions.

When you read Genesis chapter 10 it gives the dispersment of Noah's family and the end of the chapter has them living in seperate nations speaking different languages. Chapter eleven takes you back to a time before there were seperate nations and the tower of Babel. It shows how and why the nations were formed, and the people were divided.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ given to John is three fold, the things that were, are, and will be. When John is shown the great city it is uninhabited, it is show as it will be. Right now Israel is at odds with most every nation on the earth except the US and we are slipping. Israel being God's chosen hold themselves to be seperate from the world.

I guess where I'm going with this is I can see much need for healing between peoples. Perhaps while the fruit gives life the leaves unite us again, undoing what Babel did. Perhaps the Israelies and Arabs and Egyptians and others need to know there will be healing. Just as if there were universal salvation there would be a sign, this is a sign for those cultures who have been at odds for millenia.

 

[preistsplace]

Zep 3:11 In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.
Zep 3:12 I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD.
You know Chaela this could be connected to what you are saying there.....

 

[preistsplace]

I believe he is speaking of an enemy of the saved. Death is thrown into the Lake of Fire at the last judgement along with those who's names are not written in the book of Life. All death ends at the Great White Throne Judgement.!

What enemy would that be?
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
You already have the Anti Christ ,the Beast,death and Hell(hades,the unseen)and then you have the impure so I guess my question is what enemy is left to call the Second Death...and I stick to my original point for death to be destroyed all forms e.g. first and second, have to be destroyed cease come to an end......

 

[timlamb]

What enemy would that be?
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
You already have the Anti Christ ,the Beast,death and Hell(hades,the unseen)and then you have the impure so I guess my question is what enemy is left to call the Second Death...and I stick to my original point for death to be destroyed all forms e.g. first and second, have to be destroyed cease come to an end......

I wasn't speaking allegorical, death is an enemy of man. It's the close of the age, and death will not cross over with those who have everlasting life.

I'm not sure what we are disagreeing on. At the Great White Throne Judgement all sin and rebelion and death are done away with, as the next step is for God to restore the earth to it's intended glory.

 

[timlamb]

Zep 3:11 In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.
Zep 3:12 I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD.
You know Chaela this could be connected to what you are saying there.....

19 At that time I will deal
with all who oppressed you;
I will rescue the lame
and gather those who have been scattered.
I will give them praise and honor
in every land where they were put to shame. 20 At that time I will gather you;
at that time I will bring you home.
I will give you honor and praise
among all the peoples of the earth
when I restore your fortunes
before your very eyes,"
says the LORD.

This, from Zephaniah sounds alot like healing of nations too!

 

[preistsplace]

Restoration of the nations, restoring things to their former Glory so that God can be all in all
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
At the end of Christ's millennial reign after all enemies have put under his feet He will turn over the kingdom to the father so that God may be all in all.If there are some that still exist in a state of eternal torment then how can he be all in all?

 

[Armistead]

When I first started having problems with hell, it wasn't based on my beliefs, I was a hardcore fundie, it was rather the fairness of who is or isn't saved. In a Baptist Bible College is where my hell beliefs started falling apart.

Most of who we are or become depends on several factors. Where we were born, how our parents raised us, culture, wealth or poverty, ect.

Obvious the argument get's complex in detail, but let's compare numbers.
Take children that grow up in abusive homes. The facts are they will become the next generation of abusers. When one grows up never knowing love, one hardly knows how to give it.

Take a child that is born never knowing a father. His mother is abusive and he grows up in the ghetto in poverty. Usually he will join a gang to survive. He see's hate, crime, murder and never learns what love is. By the time his teens have passed often he finds himself in prision. He may have heard the gospel, but his brain was hardwired early in life to hate and hurt. Due to racism and poverty this is happening to the African American community where 80% of children don't have a father. The jails become full. His mind is set and why a few escape this social cycle the majority don't.

Compare that to someone that is raised by two loving parents with all needs met. His parents teach him about God and moral codes. He is loved and knows how to love. He is much more likely to accept Christ. The fact remains there are many factors beyond a persons control that shape them for life.

The same issue abounds in culture. If a child is born in Iran, 99% chance he will be Muslim, China, a buddist, India, a Hindu. Millions of minds have been programmed from birth to believe....and they do believe as much as any Christian, yet they are doomed to hell.

For eternal torture to be fair, everyone would have to be judged on an equal basis. Fundies make up false doctrines to excuse children, like age of accountability, because even they can't accept God torturing children for lack of understanding, but can't excuse the other conditions that shape a person. LIke some switch that happens at a certain age we become accountable and all the previous factors that shaped us don't matter. All evidence shows mental patterns become hardwired in childhood.

In reality salvation is the luck of the draw.

Not to mention the doctrine is biblically unsound.

I'm glad my wife didn't marry me out of fear. The majority of people get saved out of fear of hell. Sad people think God has to use a took like that to draw men to himself. I could put a gun to someones head and say love me or I'll shoot and they will say they love me. The doctrine of hell works the same. It's spiritual rape of the soul.

In the end Christ will do as he stated...he will reconcile ALL things to the father through the cross. Those that fight against UR seldom take the time to study it.

Understanding Universal Salvation Part One

 

[timlamb]

Restoration of the nations, restoring things to their former Glory so that God can be all in all
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
At the end of Christ's millennial reign after all enemies have put under his feet He will turn over the kingdom to the father so that God may be all in all.If there are some that still exist in a state of eternal torment then how can he be all in all?

All in all is a sign of completeness. He is all love to those whom chose salvation, and He is justice to those who chose to serve another master.


Armistead, I do understand what seems unfair, but I think you fail to see the trouble with affluence. It can be as crippling spiritually as poverty and strife. I live in a small middle class town with an active youth group and three churches. The kids have every oppertunity to participate in sports and church and school and yet only 1 in 30 show any sign of being true followers of Christ. My daughters are in Jr. High and High school and I want to cry for the appathy in the kids which is a reflection of the parents. sometimes I pray for whatever it takes to bring them to their knees. I believe God would do it IF it would truly change things.

The doctrine of child salvation is founded. I questioned it a while back and there are just a few verses that support it. Personally I believe children are conceived into grace. It is at rebelion that one falls from grace. I also believe from many verses that we are judged on the basis of our knowledge. I think to "Know Jesus" is a slightly different meaning to a native of africa or a hindu or moslum who never hears the Gospel. The law is written in their hearts.

You are right however, the scriptures do say without a doubt, you must recieve Jesus in your heart to be saved. I believe some things that maybe I read into scripture that make salvation more acceptable to me, but I don't hold Jesus hostage to it, because I am certain I will understand why when I get there.

Have you ever stared into the face of evil? If you have you should be able to understand the danger of evil and how it contaminates what it touches and why God will reject all who are not seeking righteousness. I have a brother in law who you would love, everyone does. He is funny and laughs all all your jokes. He is open and honest and would give you the shirt off his back. But mention Jesus to him and the mask comes off. He curses the name of our savior and mocks God. Six years ago when I gave my life back to the Lord and quit drinking I began writing my sister about all that was happening. One day my family and I were within a short drive from their home and I called to see if they would be home. My sister said sure, come over, but leave the religious talk at the curb. She said I wasn't welcome if I was going to talk about that stuff. She was raised in the church and claims to believe but raised atheist children and now grand children because she is afraid of upsetting her husband. I ask you, is this "Nice Guy" what you would expect God to adopt into His family?

I think the only real difference is that you believe guys like my brother in law to change when they see what hell is like. I believe scripture states very clearly that most, when faced with the suffering, will rebel and hate Him even more. Hell might scre some into seeking God, but it doesn't keep them. If they don't enter into a loving relationship with their Lord and Savior once they know Him they are still in rebellion and reject Him and they are lost.

All our desires, such as mine for my brother in law, will not change the truth. The scriptures are true and honest and if we saw people how God sees them we would know who to strive for and who are already lost. God does not contend with man forever.

Trust the Word and trust God that He is doing what is right for His children.

I have used this before: If you had ten children and seven of them took to the streets, buying and selling drugs, prostitution, stealing, lying to you and everyone they could use, you would continue to love them and try to help, right? but when they started comming into the home where your remaining three children were trying to live good and obey you and started telling lies and trying to get them on drugs and to misuse their bodies with sexual perversion, out of love for the three you would reject the seven, though it hurt to do it. And picture that scene where all were not from your family but the three had begged you to adopt them, and the others were actually following others and totally rejecting you. You would let the seven go and rejoice in the three. Would you feel like you failed? You save those who wanted your home, and gave them all you had. it was offered to the rest but they rejected it and made a decission that stands.

The word says all those who reject the Son also reject the Father and the Father will reject them.

 

[Nadiine]

Have you ever stared into the face of evil? If you have you should be able to understand the danger of evil and how it contaminates what it touches and why God will reject all who are not seeking righteousness. I have a brother in law who you would love, everyone does. He is funny and laughs all all your jokes. He is open and honest and would give you the shirt off his back. But mention Jesus to him and the mask comes off. He curses the name of our savior and mocks God. Six years ago when I gave my life back to the Lord and quit drinking I began writing my sister about all that was happening. One day my family and I were within a short drive from their home and I called to see if they would be home. My sister said sure, come over, but leave the religious talk at the curb. She said I wasn't welcome if I was going to talk about that stuff. She was raised in the church and claims to believe but raised atheist children and now grand children because she is afraid of upsetting her husband. I ask you, is this "Nice Guy" what you would expect God to adopt into His family?

This isn't uncommon Timlamb -
I had a neighbor where I lived before, she was a 35ish mother of
2 - married to a husband she loved, LOVED animals and we became
very friendly becuz of horses and I'd go over and watch her kids
take lessons on their horses, etc.

Anyways, she'd do utterly anything for you - soft spoken, moral,
raised her girls well... but when I mentioned God and my faith
and where we went to church, her whole countenance changed
on her face.
It was a look I had never seen before; she got angry.
She was stern with me in her reply and from then on I never
mentioned anything again.
Yet she claimed to be Catholic.

People change when you mention Jesus Christ. Now that's not to
say all people are like that, just that it fits with whaat you said
about this sweet man - they can be real sweet and charitable,
but seriously anti-Christ.

And no, unless they repent and recieve Christ's forgiveness for sin
and are covered by His righteousness, they will not see His kingdom.

 

[timlamb]

This isn't uncommon Timlamb -
I had a neighbor where I lived before, she was a 35ish mother of
2 - married to a husband she loved, LOVED animals and we became
very friendly becuz of horses and I'd go over and watch her kids
take lessons on their horses, etc.

Anyways, she'd do utterly anything for you - soft spoken, moral,
raised her girls well... but when I mentioned God and my faith
and where we went to church, her whole countenance changed
on her face.
It was a look I had never seen before; she got angry.
She was stern with me in her reply and from then on I never
mentioned anything again.
Yet she claimed to be Catholic.

People change when you mention Jesus Christ. Now that's not to
say all people are like that, just that it fits with whaat you said
about this sweet man - they can be real sweet and charitable,
but seriously anti-Christ.

And no, unless they repent and recieve Christ's forgiveness for sin
and are covered by His righteousness, they will not see His kingdom.

It does seem strange that some people like us for our humanness and others for our spirit, but seldom does someone like us for both.

I think this ties to what happens when we go beyond this world. When we lose the worldlyness and we become spirit only, are our spirits compatable. We who have been born of the Spirit are like-spirited, and will share that with God. Those not born of the spirit will not be happy in the presence of the spirit just as they are not right now. And we will know them for who they are in the spirit and understand why God must reject them.

When God and the world divide, the choice will be eternal. This has already happened at death for mutitudes.

 

[preistsplace]

tim, nadine, those are very convincing arguments if we decide to Forget that God is all powerful. He is capable of presenting the circumstances necessary to every individual that ever lived so that they open their eyes and see and accept him out of love and not fear of hell. The earthly father shuns the seven to save the three because he has reached the end of his ability to fix the problem, Our Heavenly Father does not face such difficulties, not even the free will of man can stop him. He can do it without violating the free will
The Lord truly is mighty to save...Blessings In Christ