Universalism

[preistsplace]

It matters because, if everyone really does get into heaven, then the teaching that they don't is destructive and causes unnecessary pain.

Right on ....Man there was a long time when I could not even concieve of becoming a dad because the world is already messed up enough and when you add to that not the possibility but the certainty that most of all humanity that has ever lived will end up in the fires of hell for time without end then whats the point of risking bringing that kind of suffering on ANY OTHER BEING. Also makes us rethink "be fruitful and multiply, when according to the "orthodox " veiw almost all of mankind will suffer eternally.......

 

[Tissue]

Exactly my thoughts. I've had similar concerns regarding potentially becoming a father, if partial salvation were the case.

 

[rcorlew]

What does the word 'today' mean when one is upon the cusp of death? 'Today' only has meaning in the context of our earth's revolution around the sun.

Tissue my friend, I have had many great dialogues and debates with you so do not fail me now.

The problem with the precept that we are the ones who mark time is one that is often given credit, but that credit is without merit.

I know from my many debates with you that you are not a literalst when it comes to creation theory and this is one of the many problems that come as a result of that stance. I am not trying to attack you by any means and you should know me well enough to know that is true. But what I am about to share is something that is of utter importance, not only to me or you, but to the rest of those who may very well read this eventually.

I open this with a question; does time exist on the sun?

The question at first might seem to have nothing to do with our discussion, but let me show you how it pertains to our discussion. You, me, the world equates a day on earth to how long it takes for the earth to rotate around on its axis. That much is for certain, but many will equate this to just mere coincidence as many are to say the least not literal creationists.

Now, does time exist without our ability to measure it, since there is not rotational procession on axis that would divide time into 24 hour days, which we can then divide into hours, minutes, and seconds; would time exist on the sun even though there are no markers that govern it?

Now I know you are very smart and you are saying well of course time exists on the sun, we would just have to measure it according to what we have already established here on earth.

But for now we have only answered an easy question, so now the stakes must be raised. When God designed the earth He left nothing to chance, all things were planned. The very length of a day, how long a year is, the procession of the constellations, they are all given to us, so that we may know how long these events are.

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let luminaries be in the expanse of the heavens, to divide between the day and the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years.

God does not need us to measure time so that we may inform Him of how long it is, God designed time, he merely gave us markers so that we may know how long a day is to Him, how long a year is, to differentiate between seasons, again not so that He may know how long they are, but that we may know.

Again, it is important to know that the amount of time that we use to define a day is the same amount of time that God uses to define a day; so that when Jesus says the word "today', we may know that this would be also defined as a 24 hour period.

 

[Tissue]

My point is, for individuals about to enter eternity, where time, as we currently understand it, is essentially meaningless, what could the word 'today' possibly mean?

Jesus could very well be speaking metaphorically. Or perhaps the account of the conversation is incomplete, and the prisoner says more than that, which was not recorded, and amounted to salvation.

 

[rcorlew]

My point is, for individuals about to enter eternity, where time, as we currently understand it, is essentially meaningless, what could the word 'today' possibly mean?

Jesus could very well be speaking metaphorically. Or perhaps the account of the conversation is incomplete, and the prisoner says more than that, which was not recorded, and amounted to salvation.

You say that time may very well be effectively meaningless, and that may indeed may be true as if time is everlasting what value can there be in one day? The lack of substantial meaning does not negate the value of measurement being equated in the quote I gave of Jesus.

To put it another way, take Bill Gates, he has @ 50 billion dollars give or take a billion. Effectively a dollar is meaningless to him, it has even been said that he would loose money to bend over to pick up a stray $1 bill sitting on the ground, but the fact that a single dollar has no substantial meaning to Bill Gates does not mean he does not understand the value of the dollar that is used to measure wealth.

 

[Tissue]

That's not at all the same. Bill Gates doesn't have an infinite amount of money. That also doesn't represent or account for the effect upon the meaning of the progression from a context in which money does have meaning to a context in which money doesn't have money.

At any rate, the analogy as a whole is imperfect, as money is not metaphysically comparable to time.

 

[timlamb]

Tissue said: It matters because, if everyone really does get into heaven, then the teaching that they don't is destructive and causes unnecessary pain.

It only causes pain in those who refuse to repent. You think ignoring their sin to save a few tears is worth the time they spend in hell? Even if it were not eteral? I'd still go for the tears bringing them to repentance if I agreed with temperary punishment. Your arguement here makes no more sense than any other point you make.

=preistsplace;52148222]Right on ....Man there was a long time when I could not even concieve of becoming a dad because the world is already messed up enough and when you add to that not the possibility but the certainty that most of all humanity that has ever lived will end up in the fires of hell for time without end then whats the point of risking bringing that kind of suffering on ANY OTHER BEING. Also makes us rethink "be fruitful and multiply, when according to the "orthodox " veiw almost all of mankind will suffer eternally..

It is obvious from this that you have trouble with the word of God. You denyed it untill you changed it to something you could accept.

preistsplaceAnd Tim Lamb if you can so flippantly dismiss 75 verses that relate to Universal Salvation, Gods Judgements ,God's Characteristics. I would have to contend that it be only fair that we dissmiss as many that refer to the "Eternal Punishment" as Hyperbole........For me I prefer to investigate and study the scripture finding that there must be a way in which ALL Scripture works together without contradicting......

Or in other words

:"If you don't agree with my scripture then I am going to say yours aren't true either"

You are a child who is completely unconcerned with truth, you see and hear what you wish to see and hear, and scripture is meaningless to you unless it can be conformed to your belief.
You, preistsplace, are a true Universalist. I have never had a discussion with one yet that didn't twist my words. I never said the scripture was hyperbole, I said your commentary on scripture was hyperbole.

 

[Tissue]

It only causes pain in those who refuse to repent.

Ever spoken to a woman whose faith-less son died from an overdose?

It is obvious from this that you have trouble with the word of God. You denyed it untill you changed it to something you could accept.

If one finds a contradiction in the word of God, a flat-out contradiction that cannot be overcome, then the individual has three choices: she can either walk away from it entirely, edit her interpretation of one or both of the elements that cause the contradiction, or sacrifice rationality and hold both.

I will not do the first, as I recognize the value of Scripture. I will not do the third, as I recognize the value of my brain.

I suggest that there is a contradiction between a loving, omnipotent God and an eternal hell. Or, if 'contradiction' is too strong a word, at least a rough edge.

 

[timlamb]

Tissue;52151529]Ever spoken to a woman whose faith-less son died from an overdose?

Nope, but the last thing I would do is tell her her son was in hell, not for me to say. Besides, this sad story has nothing to do with the truth of Hell. And if it came to it, I'd be more concerned with giving her the truth of the Gospel and letting God deal with how she accepted it than whether she cried.

If one finds a contradiction in the word of God, a flat-out contradiction that cannot be overcome, then the individual has three choices: she can either walk away from it entirely, edit her interpretation of one or both of the elements that cause the contradiction, or sacrifice rationality and hold both.

I've never found a contradiction, only truth I had not understood.

I will not do the first, as I recognize the value of Scripture. I will not do the third, as I recognize the value of my brain.

But doesn't God say to listen to Him, not the wisdom of man?

I suggest that there is a contradiction between a loving, omnipotent God and an eternal hell. Or, if 'contradiction' is too strong a word, at least a rough edge.

That is where the problem lies, you leave out the part about Him being a Just and Righteous and Jelous God who will not be mocked. Jesus told us not to judge because the Father reserves that right unto Himself. And He passes it to the Son for the reading of the Book of Life. It requires a perfectly Just God to judge perfectly. We have gray areas around the mark, He does not. That is what "sin" means, to miss the mark.

Actually, when it comes down to it, I think we agree on more than we want to admit. You are under the dilusion however, that all men will eventually repent. I beleve scripture makes it clear that doesn't happen. Even under the worst condition most men will reject God even blaming Him for their torment. The will remain in rebellion. I belioeve if that were not true God would have said so. You also mistakenly think that it is a mistaken or weak or lying God who would put un-repentant man away forever.

Just think, if you are wrong alot of people are going to hell for eternity on what you preach. I'm preaching repentance, and I'll let God sort them out in the end, when He seperates the sheep and the goats. Remember the one that says sheep go to the good place and goats go to the bad place, and they are both there for the same period. The same word discribes the length of stay for both. so either both get eternity or neither do. I think scripture teaches eternity.

 

[Tissue]

Nope, but the last thing I would do is tell her her son was in hell, not for me to say. Besides, this sad story has nothing to do with the truth of Hell. And if it came to it, I'd be more concerned with giving her the truth of the Gospel and letting God deal with how she accepted it than whether she cried.

The sad story has to do with the pain caused by a doctrine of partial salvation. Whether or not it is true, it does cause pain, and that was an aspect of the discussion. This portion of the argument was against your claim that the doctrine of partial salvation only causes pain to those who do not repent.

I've never found a contradiction, only truth I had not understood.

I find it to be a contradiction.

But doesn't God say to listen to Him, not the wisdom of man?

God also says 'Taste and see that I am good'. If I taste him, through this doctrine, and find him to be sour, there's some re-thinking that needs to happen.

That is where the problem lies, you leave out the part about Him being a Just and Righteous and Jelous God who will not be mocked. Jesus told us not to judge because the Father reserves that right unto Himself. And He passes it to the Son for the reading of the Book of Life. It requires a perfectly Just God to judge perfectly. We have gray areas around the mark, He does not. That is what "sin" means, to miss the mark.

I understand justice, but eternal hell seems thoroughly unjust.

Actually, when it comes down to it, I think we agree on more than we want to admit. You are under the dilusion however, that all men will eventually repent. I beleve scripture makes it clear that doesn't happen. Even under the worst condition most men will reject God even blaming Him for their torment. The will remain in rebellion. I belioeve if that were not true God would have said so. You also mistakenly think that it is a mistaken or weak or lying God who would put un-repentant man away forever.

I don't think we agree on very much, though I'd be more than willing to accept it if we did.

'At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that He is Lord to the glory of God the father'.

Just think, if you are wrong alot of people are going to hell for eternity on what you preach.

I think about that every day.

 

[rcorlew]

You are quite correct that Mr. Gates does not have an infinite amount of money.

Time is infinite, yet we have been given a method in which to measure it, space is infinite, yet it too can be measured, Ask any theoretical physicist the value of a minute in context when compared to the time of the universe and they will place very little value on that minute, ask a new mother the value of the very first minute when she held her newborn baby the value of that minute and she will say it is immeasurable. Same minute, two completely different outlooks on it.

The whole point is this; salvation requires faith not knowledge, and through that faith we will have no sins against us. I will do as I always do and let Jesus explain this.

Luke 8:43-48
And a woman being in a flow of blood from twelve years, who had spent her whole living on physicians, and could not be cured by anyone,

coming up behind she touched the fringe of His garment. And instantly the flow of her blood stopped.

And Jesus said, Who was touching Me? And all denying it, Peter and those with Him said, Master, the crowds press on You and jostle. And do You say, Who was touching Me?

But Jesus said, Someone touched Me, for I knew power was going from Me.

And seeing that she was not hidden, the woman came trembling and kneeled down before Him and told Him before all the people for what reason she touched Him, and how she was instantly cured.

And He said to her, Daughter, be comforted. Your faith has healed you. Go in peace.

Matthew 18:23-27
Because of this the kingdom of Heaven has been compared to a man, a king, who desired to take account with his slaves.

And he having begun to reckon, one debtor of ten thousand talents was brought near to him.

But he not having any to repay, the lord commanded him to be sold, also his wife and children, and all things, as much as he had, even to pay back.

Then having fallen down, the slave bowed the knee to him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay all to you.

And being filled with pity, the lord of that slave released him and forgave him the loan.

Salvation requires faith, this much is undoubtedly clear; yet do those who support a second chance of salvation after meeting God on the judgment throne suppose that would in any way require faith?

When Jesus said that the master forgave all the debts of the servant, the servant was set free, the servant did not receive any punishment even though it was due.

Our faith sets us free, both of the law that brings a curse to those who are under it, and from the penalty of paying for the transgression of that law. There is no punishment due, Christ received our punishment for us, the atoning sacrifice, conquering the grave.

If we are punished we are still under the law, and those still under the law are not under grace, and the parable that Jesus gave about the Master of the house telling the visitor to get away because He did not know him. The wheat and weeds says that those who are not the wheat are thrown into the fire, not given a chance to become a wheat grain.

 

[rcorlew]

I suggest that there is a contradiction between a loving, omnipotent God and an eternal hell. Or, if 'contradiction' is too strong a word, at least a rough edge.

I will not equate a loving God with a lack of punishment. We are His children, and if somebody does wrong against one of His children, then a loving God must exact justice for that child.

The only way that we will not receive the justice we deserve for violating the law is by asking for mercy through faith. You have to ask for mercy, because we cannot pay the wages of sin which is death, there simply is no amount of punishment we can endure and get to the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[timlamb]

'At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that He is Lord to the glory of God the father'.

This is another verse that all universalists use. Which verse are you quoting here, there are simular verses in three different books?

Just think, if you are wrong alot of people are going to hell for eternity on what you preach.
​

I think about that every day.

So why don't your preach repentance rather than "I'm ok you're OK"

 

[Tissue]

You are quite correct that Mr. Gates does not have an infinite amount of money.

Time is infinite, yet we have been given a method in which to measure it, space is infinite, yet it too can be measured, Ask any theoretical physicist the value of a minute in context when compared to the time of the universe and they will place very little value on that minute, ask a new mother the value of the very first minute when she held her newborn baby the value of that minute and she will say it is immeasurable. Same minute, two completely different outlooks on it.

Technically, you are correct (though neither time nor space are actually infinite; at least, according to most models I'm familiar with; rather, they are often considered 'potentially infinite', which is quite different). Nevertheless, I argue that it is not unreasonable to take Jesus' statement to the other person on the cross as non-literal. In a sense, 'today' loses a certain strictness of meaning when one is removed from this earth and placed in eternity.

The whole point is this; salvation requires faith not knowledge, and through that faith we will have no sins against us. I will do as I always do and let Jesus explain this.

I'm of the opinion that faith is (or enables) knowledge, granted upon us by the Spirit.

 

[Tissue]

I will not equate a loving God with a lack of punishment. We are His children, and if somebody does wrong against one of His children, then a loving God must exact justice for that child.

Finite sin does not warrant an infinite punishment.

 

[Tissue]

This is another verse that all universalists use. Which verse are you quoting here, there are simular verses in three different books?

I'm paraphrasing from memory, but likely, Philippians.

So why don't your preach repentance rather than "I'm ok you're OK"

I'm not preaching.

 

[timlamb]

Tissue;52151968]I'm paraphrasing from memory, but likely, Philippians.

Phillipians 2: "9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."


Notice the verse says "should" bow and "should" confess. In context paul is saying that the Father gave Jesus the name that the living and the dead SHOULD bow to, he is pointing out that though Jesus was humble, He was intended to be worshipped. But not everyone will do it.

I'm not preaching.

You're preaching it here brother!

 

[Zaac]

Exactly my thoughts. I've had similar concerns regarding potentially becoming a father, if partial salvation were the case.

So in other words, yall came to this universalist stance in order to help assuage your own fears. :smh

The following Scripture is very appropos for this lie called universalism:

15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
2 Peter 3:15-18

 

[Zaac]

Finite sin does not warrant an infinite punishment.

How is sin finite if one does not accept the One Who redeems us from our sin?

This really boils down to folks thinking they are more just than God. He has told yall what He is going to do and why He is going to do it. Yall just think your way is better than His because you couldn't conceive of god letting your relatives or anyone you know spend eternity in the Lake of Fire being tortured.

Unforgiven sin is infinite, and infinite sin justly gets infinite punishment.

 

[Zaac]

My point is, for individuals about to enter eternity, where time, as we currently understand it, is essentially meaningless, what could the word 'today' possibly mean?

Jesus could very well be speaking metaphorically. Or perhaps the account of the conversation is incomplete, and the prisoner says more than that, which was not recorded, and amounted to salvation.

I can't help but shake my head. It ain't this difficult people. Today means today. Yall need to stop trying to be so deep in order to make yourselves feel better.

God is going to do exactly what He says He will do. And that means some people will spend all eternity in the Lake of Fire because they rejected the one Who could save them.

Yall just authoring confusion that as clear as day says it is not an understanding authored by God.