Universalism

[rcorlew]

If a partialist believes that God allows us the right to make
mistakes, why would he then preach that this same god will inflict
endless misery or outright annihilation for making those mistakes?
Since when should one be punished for doing what they "had the
right" to do?

Who is to say that all bad things like cancer and amputations and unemployment and starvation are not God's discipline on those who are ungodly

Yes, with rights come responsibility.
Don't you think God has rights?
With power also comes responsibility.
Don't you think God is all-powerful?

Do you not think that God is responsible?

How long do you think that the world would have existed without Him?

Again with the demonizing when one is backed into a corner.
People generally get angry when they fear they might be wrong
about something they hold dear.

For the record, Jesus got very angry with the money changers and marketers in the temple; does that make Jesus wrong?

If it's any consolation, your salvation doesn't ride on where you
stand on this issue, so it's okay to look into it without feeling your
eternity is at stake for doing so.

We are created for the love of the Father and the glory of the Son, Jesus chose to love us and it pleases God to glorify His Son by allowing him to choose who will be saved, and the Son wanting to glorify the Father only chooses to save those who truly love the Father.

In short, Universalism = heresy

 

[preistsplace]

Who is to say that all bad things like cancer and amputations and unemployment and starvation are not God's discipline on those who are ungodly

In some cases you could say that,but not in all cases remember Jesus said to his disciples that
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Do you not think that God is responsible?

How long do you think that the world would have existed without Him?

Of course we think God is responsible for his actions and me for mine,and He punishes us based on our actions. You say Punishment is eternal...All sinners punished forever without hope.....How is that punishment based on actions? Should we follow example and Imprison every lawbreaker for life?

For the record, Jesus got very angry with the money changers and marketers in the temple; does that make Jesus wrong?

Anger is not in itself wrong. Jesus was not wrong .

We are created for the love of the Father and the glory of the Son, Jesus chose to love us and it pleases God to glorify His Son by allowing him to choose who will be saved, and the Son wanting to glorify the Father only chooses to save those who truly love the Father.

By we there I think you are referring to everyone if we look at the context...... yes you are so no dissagreement there....Those that are saved now are the elect,you my friend have not now proven that one cannot be saved after death....And we "universalists' believe that in due time all will come to truly know and love the Father.

In short, Universalism = heresy

Yes very short and here we have a conclusion without proof.........
Blessings in Christ

 

[rcorlew]

Why then if all are to be saved would Jesus say the following?

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Would He not have said something more like this if all are Universally saved;

Jesus said to him, I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. all men come to the Father through Me.

That is not what He said though.

And what of Jesus teachings here?

Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of Heaven, but the ones who do the will of My Father in Heaven.

Here is another good teaching of Jesus:

Luke 13:25 From the time the Master of the house shall have risen up, and He shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. And answering, He will say to you, I do not know you, from where you are.

A small amount of word study there will indicate that since Master is capitalized it is referring to God though not by name. Again Jesus is telling us that not everyone will enter the Kingdom.

Was Jesus' sacrifice a universal atonement? Absolutely, but you have to accept the atonement by doing the will of God.

I could get into some rather deep word studies and analysis with you if you would like, that is an open invitation to dialogue with anyone who believes in Universal salvation by the way.

 

[preistsplace]

Why then if all are to be saved would Jesus say the following?

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Would He not have said something more like this if all are Universally saved;

Remember that without the sacrafice of Christ we would still be judged by the Law...and all were guilty by the Law.......

That is not what He said though.

And what of Jesus teachings here?

Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of Heaven, but the ones who do the will of My Father in Heaven.

Here is another good teaching of Jesus:

Luke 13:25 From the time the Master of the house shall have risen up, and He shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. And answering, He will say to you, I do not know you, from where you are.

A small amount of word study there will indicate that since Master is capitalized it is referring to God though not by name. Again Jesus is telling us that not everyone will enter the Kingdom.

Yes some will be bound for punishment and they will not get out of said punishment until they have "paid the uttermost farthing"

Was Jesus' sacrifice a universal atonement? Absolutely, but you have to accept the atonement by doing the will of God.

Here we have the assumption That Jesus can only save us in this life.....That his mercy on the sinner ends when the sinner dies....Chapter and verse please....

I could get into some rather deep word studies and analysis with you if you would like, that is an open invitation to dialogue with anyone who believes in Universal salvation by the way.

Ok

 

[rcorlew]

I still have yet to be shown any passages that within context even allude to universal salvation.

Why would the apostles and Jesus himself be so concerned about preaching the message so that people may repent and be welcomed into the kingdom? If we are all saved anyway why not just do whatever, deny the Christ, deny Elohim, deny it all and do as you wish?

Jesus only saves those who accept him now, that is why we must go and share the Gospel of the holy and Living God to all nations, making them disciples; unified in the Body of Christ.

Go now, the days are short.

 

[preistsplace]

the text used in Matthew 25:46 aionios kolasis e.g. "eternal punishment...Starting with aionios.............
αἰώνιος , ον, also α, ον Pl. Ti.37d, Ep.Heb.9.12:— A. [select] lasting for an age (“αἰών” 11), perpetual, eternal (but dist. fr. ἀΐδιος, Plot.3.7.3), “μέθη” Pl.R. 363d; “ἀνώλεθρον . . ἀλλ᾽ οὐκ αἰώνιον” Id.Lg.904a, cf. Epicur. Sent.28; “αἰ. κατὰ ψυχὴν ὄχλησις” Id.Nat.131 G.; κακά, δεινά, Phld.Herc. 1251.18, D.1.13; αἰ. ἀμοιβαῖς βασανισθησόμενοι ib.19; “τοῦ αἰ. θεοῦ” Ep.Rom. 16.26, Ti.Locr.96c; “οὐ χρονίη μοῦνον . . ἀλλ᾽ αἰωνίη” Aret.CA1.5; αἰ. διαθήκη, νόμιμον, πρόσταγμα, LXX Ge.9.16, Ex.27.21, To.1.6; “ζωή” Ev.Matt.25.46, Porph.Abst.4.20; κόλασις Ev.Matt. l.c., Olymp. in Grg.p.278J.; “πρὸ χρόνων αἰ.” 2 Ep.Tim. 1.9: opp. πρόσκαιρος, 2 Ep.Cor. 4.18.
2. [select] holding an office or title for life, perpetual, “γυμνασίαρχος” CPHerm.62.
3. [select] = Lat. saecularis, Phleg.Macr.4.
4. [select] Adv. -ίως eternally, “νοῦς ἀκίνητος αἰ. πάντα ὤν” Procl.Inst.172, cf. Simp. in Epict.p.77D.; perpetually, μισεῖν Sch.E.Alc.338.
5. [select] αἰώνιον, τό, = ἀείζωον τὸ μέγα, Ps.-Dsc.4.88.
(Note that the first definition says lasting for an age although the term eternal is included it is not the most prevalent.Also that it is an adjective e.g it describes a noun.Here it describes punishment and also the life or ZOE. Augustine used the argument that since the life of the believers was eternal that the punishment was also eternal.However remember that the adjective was describing two different things,Life(zoe) and punishment(kolasis) there fore it is highly possible that it has two DIFFERENT meanings in the same passage.
Now kolasis:




κόλ-α^σις , εως, h(, A. checking the growth of trees, esp. almond-trees, Thphr.CP3.18.2 (pl.).
2. chastisement, correction, Hp.Praec.5, Pl.Ap.26a, al., Th.1.41; opp. τιμωρία, Arist.Rh.1369b13; of divine retribution, Ev.Matt.25.46, al.: pl., Pl.Prt.323e, al., Phld.Ir.p.52 W.




Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon. revised and augmented throughout by. Sir Henry Stuart Jones. with the assistance of. Roderick McKenzie. Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1940. The National Science Foundation provided support for entering this text.
Checking the growth of trees e.g pruning Now can anyone tell me why we prune trees and bushes......Yes so that they grow fuller and healthier......Punishment has a remedial element to it...it is done so that the punished can see the error of his ways and repent.(here it is obvious that some from opposing veiwpoints will point out that sometimes the punished is only"getting whats coming to him" which in and of itself says that it will be measured punishment which is opposed to "eternal"punishment ." Remember that God will judge some by Grace and the rest by the Law
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Here we have shown the law and Grace as different
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Here we are told that by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
However we may be justified by faith in Christ.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
As many as have sinned in the Law shall be judged by the law. Being judged by the law is being condemned because we have all sinned.
How does the law judge?????
Exo 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
So the law measures out punishment offense for offense. This judgement could take an incredibly long time, but is definitely not eternal. This punishment could last a million years and still not be eternal.As eternal describes time WITHOUT END.

 

[Tissue]

Why would the apostles and Jesus himself be so concerned about preaching the message so that people may repent and be welcomed into the kingdom?

Surely you agree that a relationship with Jesus is far more than simple 'fire insurance'?

If we are all saved anyway why not just do whatever, deny the Christ, deny Elohim, deny it all and do as you wish?

For the sake of the purgatorial cleansing of sins, to come after this life.

 

[rcorlew]

Surely you agree that a relationship with Jesus is far more than simple 'fire insurance'?

For the sake of the purgatorial cleansing of sins, to come after this life.

You are very correct that a relationship with Christ is far more than fire insurance.

If purgatory exists for the punishment of sins explain then what Jesus meant in the following:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise.

Mind you He said that to a convicted criminal who had obviously sinned and was being crucified right next to Jesus.

 

[preistsplace]

I still have yet to be shown any passages that within context even allude to universal salvation.

Why would the apostles and Jesus himself be so concerned about preaching the message so that people may repent and be welcomed into the kingdom? If we are all saved anyway why not just do whatever, deny the Christ, deny Elohim, deny it all and do as you wish?

Jesus only saves those who accept him now, that is why we must go and share the Gospel of the holy and Living God to all nations, making them disciples; unified in the Body of Christ.

Go now, the days are short.

The following is an excerpt from http://http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EarlyChristianView.html
At least some of you who are reading this believe that what I am writing is true. I am going to list scores of Scriptures that will confirm what the early Christians believed and lived. There are some who will clearly see this wonderful truth throughout the entire Bible--but that is no enough. Knowledge in the head will never bring forth Life. This Truth has to be buried deep in the heart and the Spirit of our Father has to nurture It to bring forth the fruit of the Spirit. Those of you who now see this Truth, I beg you to ask your Father to plant It in your heart--that He would water and care for It. This Truth planted in the mind will only bring forth dogma and death. The Father seeks those who will worship Him in Spirit and Truth, not dogma and death. It is only then that you will know why you were created. It is only then that your knee will bend to your Lord to His glory and honor. It is only then that your heart can truly rejoice and praise the Creator, your Father.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1) 1Tim 2:4 God will have all to be saved. (KJV) Can His will be thwarted?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2) 1Tim 2:4 God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth Will His desire come to pass?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3) 1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time Are we judging God before due time?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4) Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all Will He succeed?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5) Eph 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will Can your will overcome His?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]6) Jn 4:42 Jesus is Savior of the world Can He be Savior of all without saving all?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]7) 1Jn 4:14 Jesus is Savior of the world Why don’t we believe it?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]8) Jn 12:32 Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself To roast or to love?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]9) Col 1:16 By Him all were created Will He lose a part of His creation?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]10) Rm 5:15-21 In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live The same all?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]11) 1Cor 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ all live Again, the same all?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]12) Eph 1:10 All come into Him at the fulness of times Are you getting tired of seeing the word, all?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]13) Phl 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]14) 1 Cor 12:3 Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit See what I mean?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]15) Rm 11:26 All Israel will be saved But most Jews don’t believe yet![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]16) Acts 3:20,21 Restitution of all How plain can you get?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]17) Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people Is there joy is "hell"?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]18) Heb 8:11,12 All will know God How long, O Lord?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]19) Eph 2:7 His grace shown in the ages to come Have we judged Him before the time?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]20) Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all Experientially or prophetically?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]21) Rm 8:19-21 Creation set at liberty How much of creation?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]22) Col 1:20 All reconciled unto God There’s that word "all" again.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]23) 1Cor 4:5 All will have praise of God What for?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]24) Jms 5:11 End of the Lord is full of mercy Is "hell" mercy?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]25) Rev 15:4 All nations worship when God’s judgments are seen Could His judgment be mercy?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]26) Rm 11:32 All subject to unbelief, mercy on all All?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]27) Rm 11:36 All out of, through, and into Him All into Him?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]28) Eph 4:10 Jesus will fill all things Including "hell?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]29) Rev 5:13 All creation seen praising God Including Satan?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]30) 1Cor 15:28 God will be all in all What does that mean?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]31) Rev 21:4,5 No more tears, all things made new "All" made new?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]32) Jn 5:25 All dead who hear will live How many will hear?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]33) Jn 5:28 All in the grave will hear & come forth How will the "righteous" judge?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]34) 1 Cor 3:15 All saved, so as by fire How can fire save you?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]35) Mk 9:49 Everyone shall be salted with fire Including you?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]36) Rm 11:15 Reconciliation of the world Will fire save the world instead of destroy it?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]37) 2Cor 5:15 Jesus died for all Did He die in vain?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]38) Jn 8:29 Jesus always does what pleases His Father What pleases the Father? (1Tim 2:4)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]39) Heb 1:2 Jesus is Heir of all things Does "things" include people?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]40) Jn 17:2 Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him How many did the Father give Him?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]41) Jn 3:35 The Father gave Him all things (Repeated for emphasis) Study the word "things" in the Greek.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]42) 1 Tim 4:9-11 Jesus is Savior of all! Jesus is Savior of all! Can’t seem to get away from that word "all."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]43) Heb. 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost How far is "uttermost?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]44) 1Cor 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be destroyed Including "lake of fire" which is "second death?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]45) Is 46:10 God will do all His pleasure Does Old Testament agree with the New?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]46) Gen 12:3 All families of the earth will be blessed Here comes that word "all" again.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]47) Dan 4:35 God’s will done in heaven and earth What can defeat His will?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]48) Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God Can any stay rebellious in "hell?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]49) Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return How can one return from "destruction?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]50) Is 25:7 Will destroy veil spread over all nations All nations?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]51) Deut 32:39 He kills and makes alive Kills to bring life?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]52) Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts "All" hearts, including men like "Hitler?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]53) Prv 16:9 Man devises, God directs his steps What about "free will?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]54) Prv 19:21 Man devises, but God’s counsel stands So much for "free will."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]55) La 3:31,32 God will not cast off forever Why does He cast off in the first place? (1 Cor 11)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]56) Is 2:2 All nations shall flow to the Lord’s house "All" nations?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]57) Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him "All" nations![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]58) Is 45:23 All descendants of Israel justified Including the wicked ones?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]59) Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God Are you catching on?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]60) Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God That sounds wondrous.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]61) Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things I wish we would believe that.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]62) Is 19:14,15 Egypt & Assyria will be restored Really?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]63) Ezk 16:55 Sodom will be restored to former estate Sounds impossible.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]64) Jer 32:17 Nothing is too difficult for Him Nothing? No, nothing![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]65) Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him For what purpose?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]66) Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him Praise His name![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]67) Ps 145:9 He is good to all Including your worst enemies.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]68) Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works Let’s start believing that.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]69) Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall Who hasn’t fallen in sin?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]70) Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him For "eternal torment?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]71) Is 25:6 Lord makes a feast for all people And you are invited.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]72) Jer 32:35 Never entered His mind to eternally torture his children with fire Came from man’s mind.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]73) Jn 6:44 No one can come to Him unless He draws them You can’t "chose" to follow Him.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]74) Jn 12:32 I will draw all mankind unto Myself Amen!!![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]75) Ps 135:6 God does what pleases Him. If it pleases Him to save all that He might be in all, are you upset?[/FONT]

 

[preistsplace]

You are very correct that a relationship with Christ is far more than fire insurance.

If purgatory exists for the punishment of sins explain then what Jesus meant in the following:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise.

Mind you He said that to a convicted criminal who had obviously sinned and was being crucified right next to Jesus.

As I understand The theif had faith in Jesus ..
Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
He confessed that Christ had done nothing wrong....That he was a sinner....and called out to Jesus ........and so came under the Grace of Christ

 

[timlamb]

Hyperbole, The point made from the scripture quotes is pure exaggeration and mostly does not apply to the discussion. God is God, enough said. It is what His nature says about His will that is in question by universalists.

The following is an excerpt from http://http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EarlyChristianView.html
At least some of you who are reading this believe that what I am writing is true. I am going to list scores of Scriptures that will confirm what the early Christians believed and lived. There are some who will clearly see this wonderful truth throughout the entire Bible--but that is no enough. Knowledge in the head will never bring forth Life. This Truth has to be buried deep in the heart and the Spirit of our Father has to nurture It to bring forth the fruit of the Spirit. Those of you who now see this Truth, I beg you to ask your Father to plant It in your heart--that He would water and care for It. This Truth planted in the mind will only bring forth dogma and death. The Father seeks those who will worship Him in Spirit and Truth, not dogma and death. It is only then that you will know why you were created. It is only then that your knee will bend to your Lord to His glory and honor. It is only then that your heart can truly rejoice and praise the Creator, your Father.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1) 1Tim 2:4 God will have all to be saved. (KJV) Can His will be thwarted?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2) 1Tim 2:4 God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth Will His desire come to pass?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3) 1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time Are we judging God before due time?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4) Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all Will He succeed?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5) Eph 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will Can your will overcome His?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]6) Jn 4:42 Jesus is Savior of the world Can He be Savior of all without saving all?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]7) 1Jn 4:14 Jesus is Savior of the world Why don’t we believe it?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]8) Jn 12:32 Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself To roast or to love?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]9) Col 1:16 By Him all were created Will He lose a part of His creation?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]10) Rm 5:15-21 In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live The same all?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]11) 1Cor 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ all live Again, the same all?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]12) Eph 1:10 All come into Him at the fulness of times Are you getting tired of seeing the word, all?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]13) Phl 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]14) 1 Cor 12:3 Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit See what I mean?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]15) Rm 11:26 All Israel will be saved But most Jews don’t believe yet![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]16) Acts 3:20,21 Restitution of all How plain can you get?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]17) Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people Is there joy is "hell"?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]18) Heb 8:11,12 All will know God How long, O Lord?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]19) Eph 2:7 His grace shown in the ages to come Have we judged Him before the time?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]20) Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all Experientially or prophetically?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]21) Rm 8:19-21 Creation set at liberty How much of creation?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]22) Col 1:20 All reconciled unto God There’s that word "all" again.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]23) 1Cor 4:5 All will have praise of God What for?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]24) Jms 5:11 End of the Lord is full of mercy Is "hell" mercy?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]25) Rev 15:4 All nations worship when God’s judgments are seen Could His judgment be mercy?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]26) Rm 11:32 All subject to unbelief, mercy on all All?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]27) Rm 11:36 All out of, through, and into Him All into Him?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]28) Eph 4:10 Jesus will fill all things Including "hell?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]29) Rev 5:13 All creation seen praising God Including Satan?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]30) 1Cor 15:28 God will be all in all What does that mean?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]31) Rev 21:4,5 No more tears, all things made new "All" made new?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]32) Jn 5:25 All dead who hear will live How many will hear?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]33) Jn 5:28 All in the grave will hear & come forth How will the "righteous" judge?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]34) 1 Cor 3:15 All saved, so as by fire How can fire save you?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]35) Mk 9:49 Everyone shall be salted with fire Including you?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]36) Rm 11:15 Reconciliation of the world Will fire save the world instead of destroy it?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]37) 2Cor 5:15 Jesus died for all Did He die in vain?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]38) Jn 8:29 Jesus always does what pleases His Father What pleases the Father? (1Tim 2:4)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]39) Heb 1:2 Jesus is Heir of all things Does "things" include people?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]40) Jn 17:2 Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him How many did the Father give Him?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]41) Jn 3:35 The Father gave Him all things (Repeated for emphasis) Study the word "things" in the Greek.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]42) 1 Tim 4:9-11 Jesus is Savior of all! Jesus is Savior of all! Can’t seem to get away from that word "all."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]43) Heb. 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost How far is "uttermost?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]44) 1Cor 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be destroyed Including "lake of fire" which is "second death?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]45) Is 46:10 God will do all His pleasure Does Old Testament agree with the New?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]46) Gen 12:3 All families of the earth will be blessed Here comes that word "all" again.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]47) Dan 4:35 God’s will done in heaven and earth What can defeat His will?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]48) Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God Can any stay rebellious in "hell?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]49) Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return How can one return from "destruction?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]50) Is 25:7 Will destroy veil spread over all nations All nations?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]51) Deut 32:39 He kills and makes alive Kills to bring life?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]52) Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts "All" hearts, including men like "Hitler?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]53) Prv 16:9 Man devises, God directs his steps What about "free will?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]54) Prv 19:21 Man devises, but God’s counsel stands So much for "free will."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]55) La 3:31,32 God will not cast off forever Why does He cast off in the first place? (1 Cor 11)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]56) Is 2:2 All nations shall flow to the Lord’s house "All" nations?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]57) Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him "All" nations![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]58) Is 45:23 All descendants of Israel justified Including the wicked ones?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]59) Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God Are you catching on?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]60) Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God That sounds wondrous.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]61) Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things I wish we would believe that.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]62) Is 19:14,15 Egypt & Assyria will be restored Really?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]63) Ezk 16:55 Sodom will be restored to former estate Sounds impossible.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]64) Jer 32:17 Nothing is too difficult for Him Nothing? No, nothing![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]65) Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him For what purpose?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]66) Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him Praise His name![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]67) Ps 145:9 He is good to all Including your worst enemies.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]68) Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works Let’s start believing that.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]69) Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall Who hasn’t fallen in sin?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]70) Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him For "eternal torment?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]71) Is 25:6 Lord makes a feast for all people And you are invited.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]72) Jer 32:35 Never entered His mind to eternally torture his children with fire Came from man’s mind.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]73) Jn 6:44 No one can come to Him unless He draws them You can’t "chose" to follow Him.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]74) Jn 12:32 I will draw all mankind unto Myself Amen!!![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]75) Ps 135:6 God does what pleases Him. If it pleases Him to save all that He might be in all, are you upset?[/FONT]

 

[Tissue]

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise.

What does the word 'today' mean when one is upon the cusp of death? 'Today' only has meaning in the context of our earth's revolution around the sun.

 

[Tissue]

Hyperbole, The point made from the scripture quotes is pure exaggeration and mostly does not apply to the discussion. God is God, enough said. It is what His nature says about His will that is in question by universalists.

You do realize that you just dismissed 75 verses alluding to the natural of universal salvation as hyperbole, while most of Christianity condemns homosexuals on the basis of less than a dozen verses? That seems like a major-league cop-out. Or, perhaps, a strike-out.

 

[timlamb]

=Tissue;52143392]You do realize that you just dismissed 75 verses alluding to the natural of universal salvation as hyperbole,

yep! And a majority of them have nothing to do with salvation. God is all powerful, no arguement from the fundimentalist crowd. But nothing in those or any75 verses denys the fact that God has enemies. If you oppose Israel, deny the Gospel, lead children astray, ect. you are an enemy of God and sodomites are better off than you. And no one has heard from the Sodomites since the big firestorm!

while most of Christianity condemns homosexuals on the basis of less than a dozen verses?

It only takes ONE verse to prove something to be a sin.

That seems like a major-league cop-out. Or, perhaps, a strike-out.

No, the cop out is claiming God doesn't have the right to justice; strike one
Claiming God will not remove sin from the world perminantly; strike two
and denying the scripture that says the narrow road leads to eternal life, and Jesus IS that narrow road, the way to the father, and only a few find it. STRIKE THREE!!

 

[Nadiine]

yep! And a majority of them have nothing to do with salvation. God is all powerful, no arguement from the fundimentalist crowd. But nothing in those or any75 verses denys the fact that God has enemies. If you oppose Israel, deny the Gospel, lead children astray, ect. you are an enemy of God and sodomites are better off than you. And no one has heard from the Sodomites since the big firestorm!
It only takes ONE verse to prove something to be a sin.
No, the cop out is claiming God doesn't have the right to justice; strike one

2 John 1:9
Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God;
the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

John 15:10
" If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love;
just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

 

[preistsplace]

yep! And a majority of them have nothing to do with salvation. God is all powerful, no arguement from the fundimentalist crowd. But nothing in those or any75 verses denys the fact that God has enemies.

You are absolutely right God Has Enemies let us consult the words of Christ as to how we are to treat our enemies...
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If you oppose Israel, deny the Gospel, lead children astray, ect. you are an enemy of God and sodomites are better off than you. And no one has heard from the Sodomites since the big firestorm!

How can they be better off than the Sodomites,both being in an eternal(without end) hell(lake of fire or whatever other term you would like to use for it)

It only takes ONE verse to prove something to be a sin.
No, the cop out is claiming God doesn't have the right to justice; strike one
Claiming God will not remove sin from the world perminantly;

That is your claim that the sinners will always exist in a place of torment and punishment.........

strike two
and denying the scripture that says the narrow road leads to eternal life, and Jesus IS that narrow road, the way to the father, and only a few find it. STRIKE THREE!!

That is the path of the elect... And here is a scripture that you as well deny although what it is saying is obvious......
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth
The Bible says here that God Our Saior will have all men to be saved,I place My faith In God ....Remember also that the Lord "does Not cast off forever"
Because your veiw of punishment needs to take account of these scriptures and not rest solely on the Doctrines of Men........

 

[preistsplace]

And Tim Lamb if you can so flippantly dismiss 75 verses that relate to Universal Salvation, Gods Judgements ,God's Characteristics. I would have to contend that it be only fair that we dissmiss as many that refer to the "Eternal Punishment" as Hyperbole........For me I prefer to investigate and study the scripture finding that there must be a way in which ALL Scripture works together without contradicting......

 

[Tissue]

yep! And a majority of them have nothing to do with salvation. God is all powerful, no arguement from the fundimentalist crowd. But nothing in those or any75 verses denys the fact that God has enemies. If you oppose Israel, deny the Gospel, lead children astray, ect. you are an enemy of God and sodomites are better off than you. And no one has heard from the Sodomites since the big firestorm!

You oversimplify the argument, then. Universalists understand God's omnipotence to combine with his will that all should be saved, thereby creating an argument for universal salvation. If God wills that all should be saved, and (colloquially, at least) he can do anything, can he not bring it about that all should be saved?

Of course, the counter-argument would be that God has too much respect for our free will to save us without our consent, but this argument (reiterated by many Christians without a second thought) seems like lunacy when actually considered.

It only takes ONE verse to prove something to be a sin.

And, apparently, it only takes seventy-five verses to declare something to be hyperbole.

No, the cop out is claiming God doesn't have the right to justice; strike one

Certainly he has the right to justice, but he also speaks of grace. And what higher form of grace exists beyond the cross? Must others suffer eternal punishment to validate the grace given through the cross?

Claiming God will not remove sin from the world perminantly; strike two

This sounds like annihilationism; something I don't have much of a problem with. Are you saying that people who are 'found in sin' at the time of judgment will cease to exist?

The idea that people in hell somehow don't count toward the sum total of sin in the universe is a convenient logical mash-up.

and denying the scripture that says the narrow road leads to eternal life, and Jesus IS that narrow road, the way to the father, and only a few find it. STRIKE THREE!!

I agree with everything in this quote. Jesus is the narrow road, the only way to the father, and not all find it. But I argue that Jesus finds those who do not find it, as in the parable of the sheep.

 

[Nadiine]

And Tim Lamb if you can so flippantly dismiss 75 verses that relate to Universal Salvation, Gods Judgements ,God's Characteristics. I would have to contend that it be only fair that we dissmiss as many that refer to the "Eternal Punishment" as Hyperbole........For me I prefer to investigate and study the scripture finding that there must be a way in which ALL Scripture works together without contradicting......

go right ahead - imo, you already do that.

And even if Timlamb did do that, what would it matter?
He get's into heaven anyways no matter WHAT he does wrong
or rejects. So why even argue about this? who cares?

 

[Tissue]

go right ahead - imo, you already do that.

And even if Timlamb did do that, what would it matter?
He get's into heaven anyways no matter WHAT he does wrong
or rejects. So why even argue about this? who cares?

It matters because, if everyone really does get into heaven, then the teaching that they don't is destructive and causes unnecessary pain.