Universalism

[Zaac]

too true in so many cases The orthodox veiw has taken passages that obviously involve a Great deal of symbolism and used them, in the literal sense to promote eternal Hell

I preach an eternal Lake of Fire cause that's what God's word says.

When yall show me where God's word stops and removes those thrown into the Lake of Fire , then I'll preach that.

 

[Rajni]

I preach an eternal Lake of Fire cause that's what God's word says.

When yall show me where God's word stops and removes those thrown into the Lake of Fire , then I'll preach that.

I presume you are also holding off on preaching the return of Christ
until someone shows you where God's word stops and removes all
doubt as to the exact year, month, day, and time His return
occurs?

I mean, if you're being consistent on your handling of such things,
then you would have to refrain from speaking of His return for the
same reasons you refrain from preaching the removal of souls
from the Lake of Fire.







.

 

[preistsplace]

First, God says that NO ONE has an excuse whether you have heard or not.
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1:20

Second, where does this notion come from that any level of decency lived by sinful man is good enough for a PERFECT, HOLY God?

I have newver stated that anyone was good enough But I hope you are aware that your belief condemns about 90% of humanity to eternal suffering....

And here is part of the problem. People who think they are already good don't need a Savior. That's one of the primary problems with universalism.

We never said that we didn't need a saviour... This must be one of the primary problems with your understanding of Christian Universalism

And you're missing the point of the Cross. The very first thing Jesus said after being baptized was repent. He commissioned us to go and tell the world to do the same while telling them of His Gospel.

Yes he began calling to the lost.... However not all have found him..so he will find them
Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Is God not better than us?

If you haven't accepted Him as Lord and Savior, you are still guilty. I mean seriously, yall would have to throw out the entire New Testament to make universalism true.

The new testament has plenty of verses about it
1Ti 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.

There would have been no need for the disciples, no need for Paul preaching to the Gentiles, no need for missionaries, no need for the martyrs, none of it if everyone is immediately saved because of what Christ did on the Cross.

Dont be so sure yes there was the need He was providing the attonement for all and calling out t6he laborers or the elect

That doesn't even make any sense. Do you hear what you're saying? If the victory of Christ was absolute and covered everyone without folks having to accept Him as Lord and Savior as you are implying, why would there be a need to still save lost people? by what you're saying, there are no more lost people.

That he has effectively saved the world By his sacrafice but it is still necessary that we repent and come to know him.............

I have heard some crazy stuff but this ine takes the cake.

Reread my post and do not twist my words for your own ends I used a metaphor there Hence the like

Who said anything near that?

My point exactly

Just doesn't mesh with Biblical truth. That's why God says what He does about false teachers and their doctrine in the end of days.

[/QUOTE]So thenb you say that the Lord does cast off forever.....
Lam 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:

 

[Zaac]

I presume you are also holding off on preaching the return of Christ
until someone shows you where God's word stops and removes all
doubt as to the exact year, month, day, and time His return
occurs?

Why? His word speaks of His Return. The date is irrelevant.

His word DOES NOT speak of people getting out of the Lake of Fire.

I mean, if you're being consistent on your handling of such things,
then you would have to refrain from speaking of His return for the
same reasons you refrain from preaching the removal of souls
from the Lake of Fire.

No I wouldn't for the above reasons.







]

 

[preistsplace]

I preach an eternal Lake of Fire cause that's what God's word says.

When yall show me where God's word stops and removes those thrown into the Lake of Fire , then I'll preach that.

Eze 16:53 When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Here eternal fire
Eze 16:54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.
Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
And the returning to the former estate. Many times eternal of everlasting punishment/fire just means until it has accomplished its purpose.

 

[Zaac]

Eze 16:53 When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Here eternal fire
Eze 16:54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.
Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
And the returning to the former estate. Many times eternal of everlasting punishment/fire just means until it has accomplished its purpose.

So yall building this lie of universalism on something God's word don't say? You haven't shown where God's word says or even hints that folks will be removed from the Lake of Fire? Are satan and the false prophet and death aslo gonna be removed from the Lake?

 

[preistsplace]

Why? His word speaks of His Return. The date is irrelevant.

His word DOES NOT speak of people getting out of the Lake of Fire.



No I wouldn't for the above reasons.







]

1Ti 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
The Bible aslo tells us that God is the Savior of all men,SPECIALLY(not exclusively) those who believe.
this is why we believe and teach these things...

 

[Zaac]

1Ti 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
The Bible aslo tells us that God is the Savior of all men,SPECIALLY(not exclusively) those who believe.
this is why we believe and teach these things...

Again Just WOW! Yall teaching folks this lie of universalism based upon "specially" ?

 

[Tissue]

Phillipians 2: "9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."


Notice the verse says "should" bow and "should" confess. In context paul is saying that the Father gave Jesus the name that the living and the dead SHOULD bow to, he is pointing out that though Jesus was humble, He was intended to be worshipped. But not everyone will do it.

The application of 'should' as referring to an obligation that may not be fulfilled is, in this instance, dubious. You have quoted from what appears to be the KJV, which is a more imprecise translation according to our modern usage of English. The NASB, a stricter and more modern translation, uses 'will bow'. Gordon Fee, a noted authority on New Testament Studies and commentator, understands 'should bow' as referring to an ultimate end in which every knee WILL bow. It's simply a linguistic device.

 

[preistsplace]

So yall building this lie of universalism on something God's word don't say? You haven't shown where God's word says or even hints that folks will be removed from the Lake of Fire? Are satan and the false prophet and death aslo gonna be removed from the Lake?

we build this off of scripture....
Lam 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
Lam 3:32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
I can keep going but you should get my point by now...

 

[Rajni]

Why? His word speaks of His Return. The date is irrelevant.

Scripture speaks of the redemption of all too.
The date is irrelevant.







.

 

[Rajni]

Again Just WOW! Yall teaching folks this lie of universalism based upon "specially" ?

Along with loads of other Scripture? Why yes, yes we are!






.

 

[preistsplace]

Again Just WOW! Yall teaching folks this lie of universalism based upon "specially" ?

that God is the Savior of all men,specially those that believe.......Specially is dividing the two but it clearly states the Jesus is the Savior of ALL and not only SOME

 

[Tissue]

So in other words, yall came to this universalist stance in order to help assuage your own fears.

If you read my first post, you'll read a few of my reasons for sympathy toward Universalism.

How is sin finite if one does not accept the One Who redeems us from our sin?

This really boils down to folks thinking they are more just than God. He has told yall what He is going to do and why He is going to do it. Yall just think your way is better than His because you couldn't conceive of god letting your relatives or anyone you know spend eternity in the Lake of Fire being tortured.

Unforgiven sin is infinite, and infinite sin justly gets infinite punishment.

See, this is the thing; we don't see your story of eternal punishment and damnation as part of the story of Scripture. It's not that we want to cut that part out; it's that we don't think it's actually a central part of Christianity.

Re-read what you wrote in this quote above. You'll notice that all you did was re-state your opinion, without any actual counter-argument. That's not going to advance the discussion (nor is condescension). Be charitable. Be respectful. Treat us as you would any sincere seeker.

And if you treat sincere seekers like this, then you may be doing more harm than good for the church in this respect.

I can't help but shake my head. It ain't this difficult people. Today means today. Yall need to stop trying to be so deep in order to make yourselves feel better.

God is going to do exactly what He says He will do. And that means some people will spend all eternity in the Lake of Fire because they rejected the one Who could save them.

Yall just authoring confusion that as clear as day says it is not an understanding authored by God.

You may not think it easy, but I prefer to be thoughtful.

I can't believe how much folks are stretching Scripture to make this lie into the truth. I can't remember a time in my life where I have ever heard anyone say that because every knee shall bow, that it points to all being saved.

Just WOW!

I'm just flabberghasted and in awe that Christians will even try to teach something like that in order to push universal salvation.

Said the Church to the disgruntled German monk...

History repeats itself. Perhaps there will be a Universal Salvation Reformation.

Again, yall are making God out to be a buffoon. God has not been calling mankind to repentance for the last 6000 years just to turn around and say it really didn't matter if you were forgiven of your sins by way of the blood of Jesus.

If any iota of universalism is truth, then Jesus wasted His time dying on that Cross.

I for one will continue to teach the truth of His word and that He did not waste His time and that all men must proceed through Him for salvation or their eternity will be the Lake of Fire.

1. Universalists do not denigrate the value of repentance. Again, salvation is about far more than just hell.

2. We entirely affirm that Jesus is the only way to heaven. Without Jesus' death, no salvation.

 

[herev]

If you read my first post, you'll read a few of my reasons for sympathy toward Universalism.



See, this is the thing; we don't see your story of eternal punishment and damnation as part of the story of Scripture. It's not that we want to cut that part out; it's that we don't think it's actually a central part of Christianity.

Re-read what you wrote in this quote above. You'll notice that all you did was re-state your opinion, without any actual counter-argument. That's not going to advance the discussion (nor is condescension). Be charitable. Be respectful. Treat us as you would any sincere seeker.

And if you treat sincere seekers like this, then you may be doing more harm than good for the church in this respect.



You may not think it easy, but I prefer to be thoughtful.



Said the Church to the disgruntled German monk...

History repeats itself. Perhaps there will be a Universal Salvation Reformation.



1. Universalists do not denigrate the value of repentance. Again, salvation is about far more than just hell.

2. We entirely affirm that Jesus is the only way to heaven. Without Jesus' death, no salvation.

I am NOT a universalist, but in reading the responses you are getting from this side, it appears it is far easier to set up a set of beliefs that universalists hold (even if not true) and argue against those than merely accept that others hold a different interpretation of scripture than you.

 

[timlamb]

The application of 'should' as referring to an obligation that may not be fulfilled is, in this instance, dubious. You have quoted from what appears to be the KJV, which is a more imprecise translation according to our modern usage of English. The NASB, a stricter and more modern translation, uses 'will bow'. Gordon Fee, a noted authority on New Testament Studies and commentator, understands 'should bow' as referring to an ultimate end in which every knee WILL bow. It's simply a linguistic device.

Yes I actually found "Shall" in four versions and no, I don't believe the versions contradict each other. I read in context and still don't agree with your interpretation and I could find many experts to agree with me. But, I'll give you the point, all the knees bow.
Now, to use your own arguement, it doesn't prove anything or you don't think God is powerful enough to force even the rebels still in their sin and all those in hell or the lake of fire to bow on command to His Son?
So, either way, your point is no evidence!

 

[preistsplace]

So Tim Lamb your theology teaches that man is incredibly flawed and God All Powerful ans All knowing all Loving, but only saves a few and you have not found the moral, philosophical implications startling. Also systematically refute even the Holy Scriptures when they speak of the salvation of all men the restitution of all things.......I do not refute the Scriptures myself I only seek to harmonize them....

 

[MarkSB]

Jesus made it quite clear that not all people would be saved. His salvation is there for all men, and it is not his will that any should parish, but that does not mean everyone will choose to accept salvation.

It all just seems like part of an "anything goes" theology to me. Jesus, John the baptist, the apostles, they all preached repentance. And that the name of Jesus Christ is the only name under heaven by which men may be saved.

 

[Tissue]

Yes I actually found "Shall" in four versions and no, I don't believe the versions contradict each other. I read in context and still don't agree with your interpretation and I could find many experts to agree with me. But, I'll give you the point, all the knees bow.

This is kinda my point; you can find experts who support your stance, and I can find experts who support mine. At what point do we simply set down the weaponry and recognize our impasse?

I'm not necessarily arguing so that you'll agree with me. I don't think that's reasonable goal. But I am hoping to show that Universalism is at least a valid interpretation, even if you think it is wrong.

Now, to use your own arguement, it doesn't prove anything or you don't think God is powerful enough to force even the rebels still in their sin and all those in hell or the lake of fire to bow on command to His Son?
So, either way, your point is no evidence!

Huh?

 

[Tissue]

Jesus made it quite clear that not all people would be saved. His salvation is there for all men, and it is not his will that any should parish, but that does not mean everyone will choose accept salvation.

It all just seems like part of an "anything goes" theology to me. Jesus, John the baptist, the apostles, they all preached repentance. And that the name of Jesus Christ is the only name under heaven by which men may be saved.

Right, not everyone will be saved and immediately taken into heaven. Some will have to endure the purifying fires of hell. But eventually, all will be reconciled.

Repentence is still a part of the Universalist story.

After a million years in hell, do you think people will have learned their lesson?