Universalism

Zaac said:

There is no Biblical foundation that you guys have presented that says that god forces people to accept Him as Lord and Savior.

Again, yall totally discount the Cross if He is just gonna ultimately force folks to accept Him.

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God doesn't force anyone any more than he forced Paul. But once God opens the eyes of the blind, the blind cannot see the world the way they used to. That's why Jesus talks about pouring new wine into new wineskins.

peace4ever said:

God doesn't force anyone any more than he forced Paul. But once God opens the eyes of the blind, the blind cannot see the world the way they used to. That's why Jesus talks about pouring new wine into new wineskins.

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Every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ
is Lord, and this is accomplished through the illuminating power of
the Holy Spirit.



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peace4ever said:

God doesn't force anyone any more than he forced Paul. But once God opens the eyes of the blind, the blind cannot see the world the way they used to. That's why Jesus talks about pouring new wine into new wineskins.

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For sure God draws men unto Himself. But that in no way says that He draws ALL men unto Himself.

Folks will go to the Lake of Fire for all eternity. Salvation is available to all. But not all will CHOOSE to accept it. Neither does God force them to accept it.

Zaac said:

For sure God draws men unto Himself. But that in no way says that He draws ALL men unto Himself.

Folks will go to the Lake of Fire for all eternity. Salvation is available to all. But not all will CHOOSE to accept it. Neither does God force them to accept it.

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For sure, not everyone goes to heaven. In fact, Jesus tells us that few will find the narrow road. Mt. 22:14, "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

So only those whom God is drawing can come to Him because only the Holy Spirit gives us the ability to believe as 1 Corinthians 2:14 and Ephesians 2;8-9 explain. Jesus also tells us in MT. 11:25-27 from whom God is hiding his truth and to whom he reveals His truth; "I praise you Father, Lord of heaven and earth for having hidden these things from the wise and learned and revealing them to little children. For that was your good pleasure."

So God does the choosing as Romans 9:11-25, Ephesians 1:4, John 6:64 and many other verses explain, not people.

Zaac said:

What?It's not showing that God made anyone accept Him. Yes God directs the steps of those who have accepted Him. But is there ever any example BIBLICALLY of Him forcing someone to accept Him as Lord and Savior if they don't want?

Again, if He ever does that, then this whole thing we call the human struggle is a waste of time.

He should just force everyone to accept Him and we move on.

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God does not force anyone to accept him. He uses us for the purpose he proposes. But eventually all will willingly accept the gift of Christ.. The Bible in absolutely no place says that after we die God can no longer save us.People being allowed to live in the consequences of their actions apart from God will eventually lead to repentance of all...God Bless

preistsplace said:

God does not force anyone to accept him. He uses us for the purpose he proposes. But eventually all will willingly accept the gift of Christ.. The Bible in absolutely no place says that after we die God can no longer save us.People being allowed to live in the consequences of their actions apart from God will eventually lead to repentance of all...God Bless

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Oh yes it does: Luke 16:26, Jesus is describing what Abraham is telling the rich man in hell; "And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross from there to us."

So sorry, but people can't jump out of the fire and go to heaven any more than weeds can return to life once they've been burned. Such is the desire of itching ears.

Zaac said:

But the Spirit does not come until AFTER someone has accepted Him as Lord and Savior.

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Right on and to confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior you have to have the Holy Spirit...Php 2:9 Wherefore also, God, uplifted him far on high, and favoured him with the name which is above every name,—
Php 2:10 In order that, in the name of Jesus, every knee might bow—of beings in heaven, and on earth, and underground,—
Php 2:11 And, every tongue, might openly confess—that Jesus Christ is, Lord, unto the glory of God the Father.

peace4ever said:

Oh yes it does: Luke 16:26, Jesus is describing what Abraham is telling the rich man in hell; "And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross from there to us."

So sorry, but people can't jump out of the fire and go to heaven any more than weeds can return to life once they've been burned. Such is the desire of itching ears.

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The passage you are quoting does not in any way say that the chasm will be fixed forever just that it is fixed at the present time.Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

preistsplace said:

Right on and to confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior you have to have the Holy Spirit...Php 2:9 Wherefore also, God, uplifted him far on high, and favoured him with the name which is above every name,—
Php 2:10 In order that, in the name of Jesus, every knee might bow—of beings in heaven, and on earth, and underground,—
Php 2:11 And, every tongue, might openly confess—that Jesus Christ is, Lord, unto the glory of God the Father.

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Put that together with:

John 3:18
Luke 16:26
Rev. 20:10
Rev. 21:8
Psalm 37:1-2
MT. 25:41
Luke 12:9

and many, many more verses that talk about eternal condemnation for those who reject Jesus on earth.

But Universalists always take God's word out of context with the rest of the bible to suit their itching ears. That's no different than taking a sentence like; "God sends everyone to heaven except those who deny Christ on earth" and striking out the last part of the sentence so that it reads; "God sends everyone to heaven." That grossly misquotes and misrepresents God's word just as it turns the word "few" in MT. 22;14 into "all."

So when you quote the bible, please remember to put all scripture together instead of taking verses out of context with the rest of the bible so you can accurately pass along God's meaning.

Jesus is in control Now and always...

Zaac said:

For sure God draws men unto Himself. But that in no way says that He draws ALL men unto Himself.

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Sure it does. Jesus' own words:
The original Greek word for the English "draw" actually meant
"drag" (helkuo). He will "drag" all men unto Himself. It really
emphasizes that this is a rescue mission He is on and He will
reach down and yank out of the water all those who are
drowning.











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peace4ever said:

For sure, not everyone goes to heaven. In fact, Jesus tells us that few will find the narrow road. Mt. 22:14, "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

So only those whom God is drawing can come to Him because only the Holy Spirit gives us the ability to believe as 1 Corinthians 2:14 and Ephesians 2;8-9 explain. Jesus also tells us in MT. 11:25-27 from whom God is hiding his truth and to whom he reveals His truth; "I praise you Father, Lord of heaven and earth for having hidden these things from the wise and learned and revealing them to little children. For that was your good pleasure."

So God does the choosing as Romans 9:11-25, Ephesians 1:4, John 6:64 and many other verses explain, not people.

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Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

preistsplace said:

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

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Sorry, but until you reconcile all of scripture together then you are misquoting God's Word. So try again, this time, quoting Luke 16:26, Rev. 20:10, Rev. 21;8, Matthew 13:40-43, Mt. 25:41 John 3;18, MT. 22:14, Luke 12:9, and many many more verses that you ignore. But you can't do that because they contradict your interpretation of the bible. So I'll stick with the whole bible.

peace4ever said:

Put that together with:

John 3:18
Luke 16:26
Rev. 20:10
Rev. 21:8
Psalm 37:1-2
MT. 25:41
Luke 12:9

and many, many more verses that talk about eternal condemnation for those who reject Jesus on earth.

But Universalists always take God's word out of context with the rest of the bible to suit their itching ears. That's no different than taking a sentence like; "God sends everyone to heaven except those who deny Christ on earth" and striking out the last part of the sentence so that it reads; "God sends everyone to heaven." That grossly misquotes and misrepresents God's word just as it turns the word "few" in MT. 22;14 into "all."

So when you quote the bible, please remember to put all scripture together instead of taking verses out of context with the rest of the bible so you can accurately pass along God's meaning.

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Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Condemned to what remember Many of us "Universalists" still believe in Punishment
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Does not say that that Gulf will be fixed forever it simply reinforces punishment...
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Forever and....so you can add to eternity?
Rev 20:10 And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons."CLV
Rev 20:10 and, the Adversary that had been deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where were both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented, day and night, unto the ages of ages.
Eons of the Eons or Ages of the Ages definitely make more sense here and it is also the more precise translation of the original Greek....
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
This passage has not even mentioned forever..once or twice...LOL..And remember that some of us "Universalists" believe in the Just punishment of the wicked....
Psa 37:1 <A Psalm of David.> Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
Psa 37:2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
Didn't the evildoer in you perish in much the same manner when you confessed Christ as your Savior. Just because the evildoer will perish... We died with Jesus on the Cross and we were resurrected with him as well...This verse is not definitive....
Mat 25:41 ThenG5119 shall he sayG2046 alsoG2532 unto themG3588 onG1537 the left hand,G2176 DepartG4198 fromG575 me,G1700 ye cursed,G2672 intoG1519 everlastingG166 fire,G4442 preparedG2090 for theG3588 devilG1228 andG2532 hisG846 angels:G32
OK we are getting somewhere now Aionios fire
Tit 1:2 InG1909 hopeG1680 of eternalG166 life,G2222 whichG3739 God,G2316 that cannot lie,G893 promisedG1861 beforeG4253 the world began;G166 G5550 Here Aionios is used two times one time it is translated as eternal, and the second time as world.....
Jud 1:7 Even asG5613 SodomG4670 andG2532 Gomorrha,G1116 andG2532 theG3588 citiesG4172 aboutG4012 themG846 in like manner,G3664 G5158 giving themselves over to fornication,G1608 andG2532 goingG565 afterG3694 strangeG2087 flesh,G4561 are set forthG4295 for an example,G1164 sufferingG5254 the vengeanceG1349 of eternalG166 fire.G4442
Sodom and Gomorrha burned with eternal fire...are they still burning? If one "eternal Fire has gone out after accomplishing its task we can reasonably say that the other one will too
Luk 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
And if we were to deny him we would suffer judgement for our actions....
which is Not eternal but correcting because the Lord Does not cast off forever.

chaela said:

Sure it does. Jesus' own words:

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to
Myself." (John 12:32)
​

The original Greek word for the English "draw" actually meant
"drag" (helkuo). He will "drag" all men unto Himself. It really
emphasizes that this is a rescue mission He is on and He will
reach down and yank out of the water all those who are
drowning.











.

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Like the Graphic...LOL

But the thing we are debating here is really wheather God loves all of his creation enough to save them........And also if he is strong enough to save them....And yes he can do this without violating the will of the person..Remember He is ALMIGHTY......

So why add to the bible what God doesn't say in Luke 16:26? That's going beyond what's written and adding your own words to the bible, that will of course, die when you die. Universalists just love to add their own words to the bible. The first time God's word was quoted was by Eve who was enticed by Satan to add her own words to God's words. So sorry, but adding to that verse..."but God doesn't mean forever" are your own words that will die when you die. That will leave scripture as written. So instead of believing that you are the potter and God's words are the clay, you would be much wiser to believe God's words as written so you can know how to avoid the very fate you're trying to erase in the bible.

preistsplace said:

But the thing we are debating here is really wheather God loves all of his creation enough to save them........And also if he is strong enough to save them....And yes he can do this without violating the will of the person..Remember He is ALMIGHTY......

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There's the belief that God can save everyone but won't.
There's also the belief that God wants to save everyone but can't.
Then there's the belief that God both can and will save everyone.

Of the three, I think the third is the most glorifying to God.




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chaela said:

There's the belief that God can save everyone but won't.
There's also the belief that God wants to save everyone but can't.
Then there's the belief that God both can and will save everyone.

Of the three, I think the third is the most glorifying to God.




.

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None of us deserves salvation. So God saving even one of us is a gift, not an entitlement. So read Romans 9:11-25 and your questions will be answered. If you don't like God's sovereign choice, then read the parable of the workers in Matthew 20 to see that only God gets to decide who enters His kingdom, not man. Look particularly at verse 20:15 to see that it's envy when people don't like the fact that God chooses some and not others.