Universalism

[Rajni]

None of us deserves salvation.

Amen!

So God saving even one of us is a gift, not an entitlement.

Amen again!

So read Romans 9:11-25 and your questions will be answered. If you don't like God's sovereign choice, then read the parable of the workers in Matthew 20 to see that only God gets to decide who enters His kingdom, not man.

Amen again again!

And meanwhile, your reading assignment will be Romans 5, where
you see precisely how many out of those that were affected by
Adam's transgression are equally affected by Christ's (you know ...
the Second Adam?) transformation. Just a little hint fer ya: that
would be ... everybody. It's basically 1 Corinthians 15:22 in more
detail.

Look particularly at verse 20:15 to see that it's envy when people don't like the fact that God chooses some and not others.

Yes, what I call the Righteous Brother Syndrome. Remember the
story of the prodigal son? How infuriated his brother -- who
represents the card-carrying members of God's fan club -- was
when the father yanked out the fatted calf and threw a party upon
his eeeevil brother's return? Yeah, that's how Partialists sound when
faced with the prospect that they just might be rubbing elbows
someday with the long list of people they were secretly hoping
would either be burning in hell forever or outright annihilated from
existence.

Been there done that. Not pretty. :o

 

[preistsplace]

So why add to the bible what God doesn't say in Luke 16:26? That's going beyond what's written and adding your own words to the bible, that will of course, die when you die. Universalists just love to add their own words to the bible. The first time God's word was quoted was by Eve who was enticed by Satan to add her own words to God's words. So sorry, but adding to that verse..."but God doesn't mean forever" are your own words that will die when you die. That will leave scripture as written. So instead of believing that you are the potter and God's words are the clay, you would be much wiser to believe God's words as written so you can know how to avoid the very fate you're trying to erase in the bible.

Was not adding was only pointing out that you were adding an eternity to it..I agree with tissue here we do not add our words rather we inteperet what is written. We read that God is Love and that Love never fails and we believe it.In most things scripturally we would see eye to eye but this one absurdidty of eternal punishment is where our interpretations part ways. We see that Gods punishments are correctional(psa 66:10-12,le 26:23-24:Job 5:17-18sa 89:31-33sa 107 10-13 : Isa 4:4: Jer 9:6-7).We see that God is capable of doing every single thing he purposed and when we read verse such as ....1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
....we BELEIVE THEM without adding or taking away from what they say.
We look at the Bible and see Gods Holy Love and His Holy Judgements go hand in hand :that God judges in a spirit of love which is always so that the guilty can make ammends.We see God as capable and willing to love and save all of his creation. That is where we dissagree with the "Orthodox Veiw", which says either he isnt capable or isn't willing ( which is just another way of saying that he doesnt love them enogh). If I err by believeing in the power , might , and love of God ALmighty I prefer to believe that he is more and not less. Blessing In Jesus Christ,Savior of the World

 

[Zaac]

There's the belief that God can save everyone but won't.
There's also the belief that God wants to save everyone but can't.
Then there's the belief that God both can and will save everyone.

Of the three, I think the third is the most glorifying to God.




.

How is that glorifying to God when it goes against what His word says?
How is it glorifying to the One who went to the cross if all are just gonna be saved anyway?
What did He give us commandments for if we can, based upon what you guys are saying, live any way we want and be saved?

The thing about this concept of universalism is the same thing with other false doctrines. If it authors confusion, it is NOT of God.

Do yall realize how foolish it makes Christendom look to say that all will be saved?

What's the point of the Great Commission? Is Jesus just sending us on a big scavenger hunt?
15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev. 20:15

At what point does God save the folks thrown into the Lake of Fire?

The Bible says 12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Rev. 22:12-15

How are yall reconciling these things?

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

Rev. 22:18

I ask again, when does God save the folks thrown into the Lake of Fire. Cause at the end of Revelation, I see where they go in, but there is no mention of them getting out of this eternal punishment. Yet universalist seem to be adding to Scripture and saying that they too will be saved.

Nothing that authors such confusion is of God.

 

[Rajni]

How is that glorifying to God when it goes against what His word says?

Do you know how much of the Bible points toward the redemption of all
mankind? It's laced throughout scripture, as is demonstrated here.

How is it glorifying to the One who went to the cross if all are just gonna be saved anyway?

I'm truly surprised that you would find a less-than-perfectly-successful outcome
more glorifying to God than a perfectly successful one would be. Where's the
logic behind that?

What did He give us commandments for if we can, based upon what you guys are saying, live any way we want and be saved?

Careful, there. Do you know how many commandments there are? It ain't just
the ten. If one would follow the whole law yet fail in any one point of it, he's
guilty of breaking all of it. Our ability to adhere to commandment-keeping
(works-based salvation, Arminian style) will not save us, because the only way
such a lifestyle could save us is if we were to perfectly keep all the
commandments from cradle to coffin. Good luck with that, LOL!

The thing about this concept of universalism is the same thing with other false doctrines. If it authors confusion, it is NOT of God.

Algebra has also been known to author confusion; is Sayt'n there too,
perhapsssss? And don't even get me started on city driving -- the debbil must
be in the details there too, right? Being that it's so confusing n' all.

Do yall realize how foolish it makes Christendom look to say that all will be saved?

Since when does a 100% victory over the grave constitute making Christendom
look foolish?

What's the point of the Great Commission? Is Jesus just sending us on a big scavenger hunt?

That's like asking what's the point in telling slaves they're free if they're free
anyway. Um... maybe they could use the information to make a more informed
decision about how they'd like to live out the rest of their earthly life? Or take the
guy who unwittingly inherits millions from a deceased relative. Nah -- why bother
telling him? It's his money already, why bother telling him? Well, let's see.... maybe
he would make better use of the money if he actually knew it was his?

Also, your question suggests that there is absolutely no other earthly benefit to
believing on Christ now, in this life, other than "fire insurance". Not everyone is
using God to stay out of hell -- there are those of us who walk with Him and love
Him for Him, not just for what He can bail us out of.

At what point does God save the folks thrown into the Lake of Fire?

You've asked this question before, based on the notion that if nobody can answer
that question then it must mean that nobody ever gets out. I could use the same
argument to insist that there will be no return of Christ to this earth, if nobody can
tell me exactly when He does so. Do you really wanna go there? You might
want to try another strategy.

The point is that simply because Scripture is vague on the exact year,month, date,
and time people get out of the Lake of Fire, does not automatically cancel out their
hope of getting out of there. People don't lose hope that Jesus will return again
just because they can't tell you exactly when that's going to happen.

One major aspect of Revelation that I find comforting about people ultimately
getting through the Lake of Fire is this:

Revelation 22:17: The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him
who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and
whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
​

Now, to whom is this invitation being offered if everyone else was already doomed
to endless torment (or outright annihilation) in the Lake of Fire? Why, if everything
has been resolved and the unsaved are discarded irrevocably, is there a Tree for
the healing of the nations in Revelation 22? What more healing would need to be
done if all that's left are already-healed saved people?





.

 

[Zaac]

Do you know how much of the Bible points toward the redemption of all
mankind? It's laced throughout scripture, as is demonstrated here.

What I notice from that sight and others is that universalists are basically teaching false doctrine.

As with that sight, it is a far stretch of the imagination that God will redeem all. And it continues to be a dark spot on Christendom that there will be folks who go to an eternal hell because they buy into the notion of universalists that in the end God redeems everyone.

There's almost something satanic about even telling someone something that misleading.

I'm truly surprised that you would find a less-than-perfectly-successful outcome
more glorifying to God than a perfectly successful one would be. Where's the
logic behind that?

I find the outcome that God's word tells us will be to be the perfectly successful one. You guys, on the other hand, don't like the outcome that He has given, and have proceeded to paint ANOTHER picture that is completely unBiblical.

Careful, there. Do you know how many commandments there are? It ain't just
the ten. If one would follow the whole law yet fail in any one point of it, he's
guilty of breaking all of it. Our ability to adhere to commandment-keeping
(works-based salvation, Arminian style) will not save us, because the only way
such a lifestyle could save us is if we were to perfectly keep all the
commandments from cradle to coffin. Good luck with that, LOL!

I was not referring to a works based salvation. I was referring to a salvation that produces good works via obedience. There is a difference.

If God is gonna save everyone, then ain't no need for Christians to be obedient and there is no reason to preach the Gospel.

If universalist theology is correct, then God has set us on a wild goose chase. But as was said, any theology that confuses the stance of other Scripture and authors confusion simply is not of God.

Universalism is clearly a man made want. It is not a Biblical doctrine.

Algebra has also been known to author confusion; is Sayt'n there too,
perhapsssss? And don't even get me started on city driving -- the debbil must
be in the details there too, right? Being that it's so confusing n' all.

When does things author confusion as to what God's word says, come talk to me.

Since when does a 100% victory over the grave constitute making Christendom
look foolish?

Jesus already has 100% victory over the grave and even tells us in Revelation what's gonna be done with it. His victory over the grave is inconsistent with the victory over the grave that universalist are authoring.

That's like asking what's the point in telling slaves they're free if they're free
anyway. Um... maybe they could use the information to make a more informed
decision about how they'd like to live out the rest of their earthly life? Or take the
guy who unwittingly inherits millions from a deceased relative. Nah -- why bother
telling him? It's his money already, why bother telling him? Well, let's see.... maybe
he would make better use of the money if he actually knew it was his?

What it is like is a waste of time. This whole universalist argument is just foolish. To think that God would let the Israelites go throught what they went through, that He would destroy all of creation with a flood, that He would allow the trials of Jacob and Joseph and Job and Nehemiah and solomon and David and Esther and Ruth and Gideon and the deaths of the 11 disciples for spreading the Gospel and the deaths of so many more for attempting to spread the Gospel and himself dying on a Cross, just to come back and say, none of that mattered because I'm just gonna save everybody is about the absolute craziest thing I have ever heard anybody try to sell.

That concept is more dangerous than Islam and every other false religion combined.

Also, your question suggests that there is absolutely no other earthly benefit to
believing on Christ now, in this life, other than "fire insurance". Not everyone is
using God to stay out of hell -- there are those of us who walk with Him and love
Him for Him, not just for what He can bail us out of.

Then not everyone who says they know Him must know Him because that fire insurance is one of the primary reasons to trust in Him. You've got to recognize a need for fire insurance in order to be saved according to my Bible.

You've asked this question before, based on the notion that if nobody can answer
that question then it must mean that nobody ever gets out.

I simply use that question to point out that some of yall have added to God's word and teaching unBiblical doctrine that His word does not back.

I could use the same
argument to insist that there will be no return of Christ to this earth, if nobody can
tell me exactly when He does so. Do you really wanna go there? You might
want to try another strategy.

Sure do wanna go there cause you;re talking apples and oranges. He tells us in His word that He is coming back. we don't have to know when. He does not say in His word that folks will get a reprieve from their eternal separation from Him in the Lake of Fire.

The point is that simply because Scripture is vague on the exact year,month, date,
and time people get out of the Lake of Fire, does not automatically cancel out their
hope of getting out of there. People don't lose hope that Jesus will return again
just because they can't tell you exactly when that's going to happen.

What do you mean vague? Scripture is not vague on the issue. Scripture makes no mention of the issue. Scripture says that people whose name is not in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake.

And universalist are falsely teaching that this means they will get out at some point. The only way to conclude that and teach it as truth is to add to Scripture.

One major aspect of Revelation that I find comforting about people ultimately
getting through the Lake of Fire is this:

Revelation 22:17: The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him
who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and
whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.​

Wow. This is why not everyone should be attempting to teach. This is sad that people would completely misrepresent what Scripture is saying.

How many dead people do you know who are offered water? The Living Word is meant for the living, not for the dead who have been cast into the Second Death.

Those words as was all Scripture was written so that the LIVING could hear it and respond.

If you are dead and judgment has come, there ain't no need to take the free gft of the water of life. You already missed your opportunity.

​

Now, to whom is this invitation being offered if everyone else was already doomed
to endless torment (or outright annihilation) in the Lake of Fire?

It's being offered to the ones who are NOW alive. It is a book of Revelation. One of its primary intents is to give people an urgency about sharing the Gospel so that others don't have to get to that point.

And just as He does so many other times in His word, it examples God offering an invitation to Life to those who are ALIVE and reading/hearing the words.

Why, if everything
has been resolved and the unsaved are discarded irrevocably, is there a Tree for
the healing of the nations in Revelation 22? What more healing would need to be
done if all that's left are already-healed saved people?

You are missing the meaning of that statement. Why the need for crops if we have new glorified bodies?

 

[timlamb]

I just remembered a teaching I heard one time that I felt could have some truth. This person felt that becasue God loves us so much, but the wicked and rebellious cannot be in His perfect presence, that even Hell must be better than no life whatsoever. The purpose of Hell is not to torture, but to provide a place for people to live, in their rebellious state.

Personnally, I believe it is that rebellion, the desires that cannot be met that cause the torment. Hell is a self inflicted state. The ones He seals away there will have no repentance in them.

 

[preistsplace]

I just remembered a teaching I heard one time that I felt could have some truth. This person felt that becasue God loves us so much, but the wicked and rebellious cannot be in His perfect presence, that even Hell must be better than no life whatsoever. The purpose of Hell is not to torture, but to provide a place for people to live, in their rebellious state.

Personnally, I believe it is that rebellion, the desires that cannot be met that cause the torment. Hell is a self inflicted state. The ones He seals away there will have no repentance in them.

Iguess that depends on whos version of hell you are talking about..We have had some pretty descriptive people on that point.............

 

[Rajni]

What I notice from that sight and others is that universalists are basically teaching false doctrine.

As with that sight, it is a far stretch of the imagination that God will redeem all. And it continues to be a dark spot on Christendom that there will be folks who go to an eternal hell because they buy into the notion of universalists that in the end God redeems everyone.

There's almost something satanic about even telling someone something that misleading.



I find the outcome that God's word tells us will be to be the perfectly successful one. You guys, on the other hand, don't like the outcome that He has given, and have proceeded to paint ANOTHER picture that is completely unBiblical.



I was not referring to a works based salvation. I was referring to a salvation that produces good works via obedience. There is a difference.

If God is gonna save everyone, then ain't no need for Christians to be obedient and there is no reason to preach the Gospel.

If universalist theology is correct, then God has set us on a wild goose chase. But as was said, any theology that confuses the stance of other Scripture and authors confusion simply is not of God.

Universalism is clearly a man made want. It is not a Biblical doctrine.



When does things author confusion as to what God's word says, come talk to me.



Jesus already has 100% victory over the grave and even tells us in Revelation what's gonna be done with it. His victory over the grave is inconsistent with the victory over the grave that universalist are authoring.



What it is like is a waste of time. This whole universalist argument is just foolish. To think that God would let the Israelites go throught what they went through, that He would destroy all of creation with a flood, that He would allow the trials of Jacob and Joseph and Job and Nehemiah and solomon and David and Esther and Ruth and Gideon and the deaths of the 11 disciples for spreading the Gospel and the deaths of so many more for attempting to spread the Gospel and himself dying on a Cross, just to come back and say, none of that mattered because I'm just gonna save everybody is about the absolute craziest thing I have ever heard anybody try to sell.

That concept is more dangerous than Islam and every other false religion combined.



Then not everyone who says they know Him must know Him because that fire insurance is one of the primary reasons to trust in Him. You've got to recognize a need for fire insurance in order to be saved according to my Bible.




I simply use that question to point out that some of yall have added to God's word and teaching unBiblical doctrine that His word does not back.



Sure do wanna go there cause you;re talking apples and oranges. He tells us in His word that He is coming back. we don't have to know when. He does not say in His word that folks will get a reprieve from their eternal separation from Him in the Lake of Fire.



What do you mean vague? Scripture is not vague on the issue. Scripture makes no mention of the issue. Scripture says that people whose name is not in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake.

And universalist are falsely teaching that this means they will get out at some point. The only way to conclude that and teach it as truth is to add to Scripture.



Wow. This is why not everyone should be attempting to teach. This is sad that people would completely misrepresent what Scripture is saying.

How many dead people do you know who are offered water? The Living Word is meant for the living, not for the dead who have been cast into the Second Death.

Those words as was all Scripture was written so that the LIVING could hear it and respond.

If you are dead and judgment has come, there ain't no need to take the free gft of the water of life. You already missed your opportunity.



It's being offered to the ones who are NOW alive. It is a book of Revelation. One of its primary intents is to give people an urgency about sharing the Gospel so that others don't have to get to that point.

And just as He does so many other times in His word, it examples God offering an invitation to Life to those who are ALIVE and reading/hearing the words.




You are missing the meaning of that statement. Why the need for crops if we have new glorified bodies?

You rely too heavily on fearful demonizing of religious views that
you don't subscribe to to be taken at all seriously in your
arguments (or, at least, the ones that I can make any sense out
of). Hang in there, Zaac! You're in for a very pleasant surprise!

 

[Zaac]

You rely too heavily on fearful demonizing of religious views that
you don't subscribe to to be taken at all seriously in your
arguments (or, at least, the ones that I can make any sense out
of). Hang in there, Zaac! You're in for a very pleasant surprise!

I rely on what God's word says. You guys on the other hand seem to be more reliant on your own needs to orchestrate something that ain't in God's word.

 

[Tissue]

Don't give us that, Zaac. Some verses seem to speak of an eternal hell. Some verses seem to speak of salvation for all. It all depends on which one's the individual decides to emphasize, and how they rationalize the other verses.

Get off your spiritual/exegetical high horse. You're interpreting the text, just as we are.

 

[Jase]

Don't give us that, Zaac. Some verses seem to speak of an eternal hell. Some verses seem to speak of salvation for all. It all depends on which one's the individual decides to emphasize, and how they rationalize the other verses.

Get off your spiritual/exegetical high horse. You're interpreting the text, just as we are.

Actually, when one really looks closely at the original language, the Bible never mentions anything even remotely related to the fire and brimstone hell so many christians like to support. It's a fabrication of the church to promote conversion during the Roman Empire (and greatly embellished with the works of Dante and Milton). There is no concept of eternal torment in Judaism.

 

[Tissue]

I used the phrase 'seem to' to be fair to both sides.

 

[Zaac]

Don't give us that, Zaac. Some verses seem to speak of an eternal hell. Some verses seem to speak of salvation for all. It all depends on which one's the individual decides to emphasize, and how they rationalize the other verses.

Don't give you what? It is the utmost in arrogance that you guys would even attempt to teach something contrary to what God's word says based upon what you want it to say after Revelation.

Get off your spiritual/exegetical high horse. You're interpreting the text, just as we are.

No you are not. There is nothing in God's word that even hints at folks being pulled out of an eternal Lake of fire and redeemed. But to fit your purposes, yall continue to push that false doctrine and author confusion that is not of God.

 

[Zaac]

I used the phrase 'seem to' to be fair to both sides.

I'm not caught up in a need to be fair. I'm gonna preach what God's word says and point out this false doctrine of universal salvatiob as just that: false.

 

[Tissue]

Don't give you what? It is the utmost in arrogance that you guys would even attempt to teach something contrary to what God's word says based upon what you want it to say after Revelation.

We're not trying to teach something contrary to Scripture. We're trying to figure out what Scripture is actually saying.

No you are not. There is nothing in God's word that even hints at folks being pulled out of an eternal Lake of fire and redeemed. But to fit your purposes, yall continue to push that false doctrine and author confusion that is not of God.

The story of the prodigal son.

The story of the lost sheep.

Philippians 2:10-11: 'that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.'

John 12:30-32: 'Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine. Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

1 Corinthians 15:22: 'For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.'

Psalm 106:1: 'God is good, his love endures forever.'

Psalm 30:5: 'God's anger only lasts a moment.'

You likely interpret these verses in ways that does not tend toward Universalism. I argue, however, that these verses provide a rather strong foundation for Universalist belief. Of course, a simple glance at some of the earliest theologians shows that many found a similar tone in the Christian message.

Problem is, you can't deal with the fact (not the idea, the fact) that there are reasonable approaches to Scripture that are not exactly the same as your own beliefs. And this, to me, exemplifies the real arrogance, where you assume the infallibility that only God possesses. What makes you so free from mistakes, and fault in interpretation?

 

[preistsplace]

How is that glorifying to God when it goes against what His word says?
How is it glorifying to the One who went to the cross if all are just gonna be saved anyway?
What did He give us commandments for if we can, based upon what you guys are saying, live any way we want and be saved?

The thing about this concept of universalism is the same thing with other false doctrines. If it authors confusion, it is NOT of God.

Do yall realize how foolish it makes Christendom look to say that all will be saved?

What's the point of the Great Commission? Is Jesus just sending us on a big scavenger hunt?
15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev. 20:15

At what point does God save the folks thrown into the Lake of Fire?

The Bible says 12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Rev. 22:12-15

How are yall reconciling these things?

Rev. 22:18

I ask again, when does God save the folks thrown into the Lake of Fire. Cause at the end of Revelation, I see where they go in, but there is no mention of them getting out of this eternal punishment. Yet universalist seem to be adding to Scripture and saying that they too will be saved.

Nothing that authors such confusion is of God.

So he gives to everyone according to what he has done....That sounds like a measured punishment to me...Which by the way is the way God punishes in accord with what you have done.........Look at the verse you Quoted in Revelations you have assumed because it is the last book in the Bible it must be chronological. However at this time I would point your attention to the Idea that this could be describing the fulfillment of Gods promises to the Jews
(Earthly Kingdom) 1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Here it says that God will eventually be all in all...Does that include the people suffering endless "Torments"
The millenial kingdom sounds like it still has authority and power Look at 15:24 all authority and power is put down....Perhaps This is God completing his promise to the Gentiles

 

[Rajni]

Actually, when one really looks closely at the original language, the Bible never mentions anything even remotely related to the fire and brimstone hell so many christians like to support. It's a fabrication of the church to promote conversion during the Roman Empire (and greatly embellished with the works of Dante and Milton). There is no concept of eternal torment in Judaism.

 

[Rajni]

Don't give us that, Zaac. Some verses seem to speak of an eternal hell. Some verses seem to speak of salvation for all. It all depends on which one's the individual decides to emphasize, and how they rationalize the other verses.

There is something to that - sometimes I wonder if God
designed scripture that way intentionally, so that Scripture
actually reveals our heart in our attempts to interpret it. It
acts almost like a mirror, and what we see in it is what is
actually in ourselves.

It's been said that we don't see things as they are, we see
them as we are. So, when we attempt to proclaim (what we
interpret as) "God's Word" on any particular issue, we're also
waxing autobiographical in the process.

Therefore, generally speaking of course, those who believe
in the sort of god that would chuck most of mankind into hell
will likely have a personality to match, and will make itself
known in due time especially when confronted with a
conflicting view concerning God's grace. Likewise, those who
believe that God will forgive and save all will likely have a
personality that matches that belief.

It would seem that one's interpretation of Scripture also
serves as a very revealing interpretation of themselves.

Kinda cool if ya ask me!

(I don't claim the above to be an orthodox view, just an
observational one. )
.

.




.

 

[Zaac]

So he gives to everyone according to what he has done....That sounds like a measured punishment to me...Which by the way is the way God punishes in accord with what you have done.........Look at the verse you Quoted in Revelations you have assumed because it is the last book in the Bible it must be chronological.

I have done no such thing. As far as the timeline of what will take place, the things mentioned are the last Biblical account of what WILL take place. Revelation could have been the first book and what it says would still be an account of the last things to take place.

You guys are simply looking to add to the word something that the word does not say happens.

 

[Zaac]

We're not trying to teach something contrary to Scripture. We're trying to figure out what Scripture is actually saying.

There is a difference between trying to figure out what Scripture is saying and teaching an untrue doctrine as truth. Yall are attempting to do the latter.

Problem is, you can't deal with the fact (not the idea, the fact) that there are reasonable approaches to Scripture that are not exactly the same as your own beliefs.

I can deal with it just fine. As a matter of fact, God's word directs me as to how to deal with such things.

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. 2 Peter 2:1-3

And this, to me, exemplifies the real arrogance, where you assume the infallibility that only God possesses. What makes you so free from mistakes, and fault in interpretation?

I'm not quoting me. I'm quoting God. It's His Scripture. What are yall quoting when pulling folks out of an eternal Lake of Fire?