Universalism

HuntingMan · Jun 15, 2009

Eternal hell vs eternal life

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article

To show that 'Hell' is a temporary place whose contents will finally be put into this eternal 'lake of fire' and that that place is 'perpetual'.
We do not teach about torment because we want to get even or revenge but only because we want to warn everyone we can about the truth and save them from going to that terrible place. Don't let false teachings cause you to not take this issue VERY seriously.

Supporting Evidence

1.0
Two eternal destinies

"And when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then will He sit upon His glorious throne.
All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on His left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' "
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me.' "
Then He will also say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' "Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and we did not minister to You?' "
Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, neither did you do it to Me.' "
And these shall go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.
(Mat 25:31-46 EMTV)

eternal
G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

G2851
κόλασις
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

No eternal punishment = No eternal life.
From that passage we see two distinct paths, one of which each of us will take depending on whether we are His child or not. It is also clear that the one path leads into the 'fire prepared for the devil and his angels', showing clearly that humans will at some point be put into the same place as Satan himself and the angels that decided to rebel against God with him.
Some use the argument that it doesnt SAY that people will burn forever, but it also doesnt specifically that they wont. Given the evidence as a whole, it seems much more likely that the people put in the lake of fire will face the same consequence that Satan and his angels will who are also there.

2.0
Resurrection to life or death

Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(1Co 15:12-22 KJV)

So yes....ALL will be resurrected.
And what more is said about this resurrection ?

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
(Joh 5)

ALL will be made alive..resurrected...some to eternal life, some to eternal condemnation.

2.5
The resurrection body

Now this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor can corruption inherit incorruption.
(1Co 15:50 EMTV)

But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what sort of body do they come?" Fool, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that will be, but a bare grain--perhaps wheat or some other grains. But God gives to it a body just as He desired, and to each of the seeds its own body.
All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is a different kind of flesh for men, and another flesh for beasts, another for fish, and another for birds. And there are celestial bodies, and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead.
The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(1Co 15:35-44 EMTV)

These who reign with Christ during the millennial reign quite apparently DO have their resurrection bodies since death has no power over them and they live thru the millenium with Christ.
Scripture shows that the rest were resurrected afterward and judgment taking place.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:4-15 KJV)

3.0
Torment
And here again, these PEOPLE who take the mark.
Notice the word is not 'kolasis' which is an argument used by some.

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(Rev 14:9-10 KJV)

The sameG846 shall(G2532) drinkG4095 ofG1537 theG3588 wineG3631 of theG3588 wrathG2372 of God,G2316 which is poured outG2767 without mixtureG194 intoG1722 theG3588 cupG4221 of hisG848 indignation;G3709 andG2532 he shall be tormentedG928 withG1722 fireG4442 andG2532 brimstoneG2303 in the presenceG1799 of theG3588 holyG40 angels,G32 andG2532 in the presenceG1799 of theG3588 Lamb:G721
(Rev 14:10 KJV+)

G928
βασανίζω
basanizō
bas-an-id'-zo
From G931; to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.

Again, context of the whole SHOWS torment....

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
(Luk 16:28 KJV)

Luk 16:28 ForG1063 I haveG2192 fiveG4002 brethren;G80 thatG3704 he may testifyG1263 unto them,G846 lestG3363 theyG846 alsoG2532 comeG2064 intoG1519 thisG5126 placeG5117 of torment.G931

G931
βάσανος
basanos
bas'-an-os
Perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch stone, that is, (by analogy) torture: - torment.

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:11 KJV)

And here we have the rich man in hell asking for water to cool his tongue.

and longing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. And even the dogs came and would lick his sores. And it came to pass that the beggar died, and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom.

The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am suffering in this flame.'
(Luk 16:21-24 EMTV)

SUFFERING
G3600
ὀδυνάω
odunaō
od-oo-nah'-o
From G3601; to grieve: - sorrow, torment.

The words are clear that the rich man is suffering because of the 'flame' and wants to be cooled.
G5395
φλόξ
phlox
flox
From a primary φλέγω phlegō (to “flash” or “flame” a blaze: - flame (-ing).

G2711
καταψύχω
katapsuchō
kat-ap-soo'-kho
From G2596 and G5594; to cool down (off), that is, refresh: - cool.

Sounds like a guy thats pretty hot, no ?
Hell and death have not yet been cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

continued....

HuntingMan · Jun 15, 2009

4.0
Duration

We'll look at the words used to describe duration of 'eternal' and see how these words are used elsewhere to determine what the context shows.
Here is one of those words, aionios.

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Here we have PEOPLE who will burn forever who take the mark of the beast

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:11 KJV)

All who believe will live 'eternally' with Him.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal (g166)life.
(Joh 3:15 KJV)

And I give unto them eternal (g166)life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:28 KJV)

Here's TWO DIFFERENT words entirely to make the point.

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal(g166) life:
(Rom 2:7 KJV)

immortality
G861
ἀφθαρσία
aphtharsia
af-thar-see'-ah
From G862; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: - immortality, incorruption, sincerity.

Looks like 'eternal' (g166) there is simply in AGREEMENT with the idea
Heres one...

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal (g166) Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
(Heb 9:14 KJV)

We know the Spirit of God is 'eternal' supporting that g166 means precisely that.
Next we see that the glory of God is 'eternal'. If g166 means anything less than 'eternal' we would have to say that Gods glory is temporal.

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal(g166) glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
(1Pe 5:10 KJV)

Here we see that the gospel is 'eternal'.

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting (g166)gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
(Rev 14:6 KJV)

And the Lords kingdom is also 'eternal' (g166)

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting (g166)kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:11 KJV)

And His covenant, also 'eternal'.

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting (G166)covenant,
(Heb 13:20 KJV)

We know God is 'eternal'...

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting (g166) God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(Rom 16:26 KJV)

Hebrews 9:12 shows that He has SECURED 'eternal redemption' for us.

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
(Heb 9:12 KJV)

the CONTEXT of 'eternal life' is just THAT...ETERNAL LIFE

And I give unto them eternal (g166) life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:28 KJV)

Gods word shows that that life is 'eternal' in the same way HE is by using the SAME greek word to describe it...aionios.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting (g166) God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(Rom 16:26 KJV)

5.0
Who will and who wont be saved...

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart one believes resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
(Rom 10:9-10 EMTV)

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(Joh 3:18 KJV)

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Mat 7:21-23 KJV)

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:14-15 KJV)

But the cowardly, and unbelieving, and sinners, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and drug users, and idolaters, and all who are false shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
(Rev 21:8 EMTV)

6.0
Old Testament Evidence

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life, and
some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(Dan 12:2 KJV)

H5769
עלם / עולם
‛ôlâm
BDB Definition:
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(Isa 66:23-24 KJV)

HuntingMan · Jun 15, 2009

Kolazo versus Kolasis

Internet source:
"The Greek word translated "punishment" in Matthew 25:46 means to curb, check, or restrain. The root idea is to put or place a person is a separated from God state and restrain him or her there forever. The word does not mean torture. Eternal torture is another gospel, false doctrine.

READERS, see this for yourself.
Internet source is using another word this word is DERIVED from, but it IS NOT the same exact word as the one he keeps claiming as explained below

Here is the actual word;

AndG2532 theseG3778 shall go awayG565 intoG1519 everlastingG166 punishment:G2851 butG1161 theG3588 righteousG1342 intoG1519 lifeG2222 eternal.G166
(Mat 25:46 KJV+)

This is the meaning. Notice that NEITHER scholar uses curb, check, or restrain as the Internet source falsely claims above.
Strong Definition:
G2851
κόλασις
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

Thayer Definition:
G2851
κόλασις
kolasis
1) correction, punishment, penalty

What the Internet source is doing is trying to mislead by claiming that this word that has its OWN meaning is exactly the same as the word it is derived from, which is this word
Notice that BOTH scholars agree about the intent of the word being curtail or curb.

Thayer Definition:
G2849
κολάζω
kolazō
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished

Strongs Definition:
G2849
κολάζω
kolazō
kol-ad'-zo
From κόλος kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.

The first word kolasis appears here in the NT;

G2851
κόλασις
kolasis
Total KJV Occurrences: 2
punishment, 1
Mat_25:46
torment, 1
1Jo_4:18

The second word Kolazo appears here in the NT;

G2849
κολάζω
kolazō
Total KJV Occurrences: 2
punish, 1
Act_4:21
punished, 1
2Pe_2:9

Kolazo means 'curb, check, restrain'.
The word USED ....kolasis'....means PUNISHMENT / TORMENT
Not even Thayers shows them as meaning the SAME thing

G2851
κόλασις
kolasis
Thayer Definition:
1) correction, punishment, penalty

Strong Definition:
G2851
κόλασις
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

versus

G2849
κολάζω
kolazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished

Strongs Definition:
G2849
κολάζω
kolazō
kol-ad'-zo
From κόλος kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.

What is clear is that Kolasis is MUCH narrower in intent than the root word Kolazo.

And EVEN IF Kolasis DID mean the same thing as Kolazo, the word Kolazo DOES MEAN 'punish' and in no way nullifies 'torment' in eternal flames...it actual would confirm 'confinement' AND 'punishment' !

G2849
κολάζω
kolazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished

Strongs Definition:
G2849
κολάζω
kolazō
kol-ad'-zo
From κόλος kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.

Internet source:
"Similarly does the verb form of the word "kolasis" refer to torment? Nope. In 2 Peter 2:9 the idea is sinners will be kept in Hades until judgment, then they will be tossed into the lake of fire. So again the idea is rejection and separation. And finally, Acts 4:21 makes my case overwhelmingly. They let them go, finding no basis by which they could "kolasis in verb form" them. They let them go rather than "curb, check or restrain" them.

Actually the word in 2 Peter 2:9 isnt kolasis(G2851) but is kolazo(G2849) instead.
They are related, but they are not the same exact word.
Acts 4:21 isnt kolasis(G2851) either, but is also kolazo(G2849).

Its is apparent that kolasis(G2851) is FROM kolazo(G2849), but this doesnt make it the same exact word or the same exact intent.

kolasis(G2851)

Mat 25:46 AndG2532 theseG3778 shall go awayG565 intoG1519 everlastingG166 punishment:G2851 butG1161 theG3588 righteousG1342 intoG1519 lifeG2222 eternal.G166

There isG2076 noG3756 fearG5401 inG1722 love;G26 butG235 perfectG5046 loveG26 castethG906 outG1854 fear:G5401 becauseG3754 fearG5401 hathG2192 torment.G2851 (G1161) He that fearethG5399 is notG3756 made perfectG5048 inG1722 love.G26
(1Jn 4:18 KJV+)

G2851
Strongs
κόλασις
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

G2851
κόλασις
kolasis
Thayer Definition:
1) correction, punishment, penalty

VERSUS...

kolazo(G2849)

SoG1161 when theyG3588 had further threatenedG4324 them, they let them go,G630 G846 findingG2147 nothingG3367 howG4459 they might punishG2849 them,G846 becauseG1223 of theG3588 people:G2992 forG3754 allG3956 men glorifiedG1392 GodG2316 forG1909 that which was done.G1096
(Act 4:21 KJV+)

The LordG2962 knowethG1492 how to deliverG4506 the godlyG2152 out ofG1537 temptations,G3986 andG1161 to reserveG5083 the unjustG94 untoG1519 the dayG2250 of judgmentG2920 to be punished:G2849
(2Pe 2:9 )

G2849
Strongs
κολάζω
kolazō
kol-ad'-zo
From κόλος kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.

G2849
κολάζω
kolazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished

Internet source seems to be correct about kolazō and the intent there...but that isnt the same word that is in the end of Matthew.
Additionally the scholars have determined NOT to use 'curb, check or restrain' there in 2 Peter, so why is Internet sources choice of renderings more accurate than theirs?

Based on Matthew 25 and its use of kolasis which doesnt mean 'curb' , its easy enough to discern that the intent of 2 Peter is probably 'punish'...

And again EVEN IF Kolasis DID mean the same thing as Kolazo, the word Kolazo DOES MEAN 'punish' and in no way nullifies 'torment' in eternal flames...it actual would confirm 'confinement' AND 'punishment' !

G2849
κολάζω
kolazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished

Strongs Definition:
G2849
κολάζω
kolazō
kol-ad'-zo
From κόλος kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.

TimRout · Jun 15, 2009

preistsplace said:
Great post... I think that sometimes people feel that if God does not love them more than others than thee faith is not valuable. Like the faithful son in the story of the prodigal son who is upset with his father for making such a fuss about the lost son finding his way home. The thing is that I am no more deserving of Gods Love than any other creation.My faith cannot be based on my actions....My actions must be based on my faith I.E.
Faith that God saves all=act Lovingly to all
Faith that God saves Some=act lovingly to some

If one's faith is based on the Bible alone, and one acts lovingly to all because God commands it therein, does this not provide a logical basis for universal kindness while preserving a belief in limited salvation?

preistsplace · Jun 15, 2009

HuntingManEternal hell vs eternal life

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article

To show that 'Hell' is a temporary place whose contents will finally be put into this eternal 'lake of fire' and that that place is 'perpetual'.
We do not teach about torment because we want to get even or revenge but only because we want to warn everyone we can about the truth and save them from going to that terrible place. Don't let false teachings cause you to not take this issue VERY seriously

Supporting Evidence

1.0
Two eternal destinies

"And when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then will He sit upon His glorious throne.
All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on His left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' "
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me.' "
Then He will also say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' "Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and we did not minister to You?' "
Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, neither did you do it to Me.' "
And these shall go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.
(Mat 25:31-46 EMTV)

eternal
G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

G2851
κόλασις
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

No eternal punishment = No eternal life.
From that passage we see two distinct paths, one of which each of us will take depending on whether we are His child or not. It is also clear that the one path leads into the 'fire prepared for the devil and his angels', showing clearly that humans will at some point be put into the same place as Satan himself and the angels that decided to rebel against God with him.
Some use the argument that it doesnt SAY that people will burn forever, but it also doesnt specifically that they wont. Given the evidence as a whole, it seems much more likely that the people put in the lake of fire will face the same consequence that Satan and his angels will who are also there.

Here you have Said that If ther is no Eternal Punishment then there is no Eternal Life. This argument is flawed. The word used in the text is Aionios.This word is an adjective it modifies and is subjective to the word that it describes.
An example Tall building Tall man here we use the same adjective to describe different subjects. and we can safely say that a Tall man is not the same height as a Tall building and equally important that we are not taking anything away from the tallness of the building by calling the man tall.
As far as the punishment of man being equal to the punishment of the Devil and his angels here it is complete assumption.
Mat 25:41ThenG5119shall he sayG2046alsoG2532unto themG3588onG1537the left hand,G2176DepartG4198fromG575me,G1700ye cursed,G2672intoG1519everlastingG166fire,G4442preparedG2090for theG3588devilG1228andG2532hisG846angels:G32
G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
Aionios comes from Aion which means age Aionios then has the qualitys of Aion...which can mean perpetual or eternal with the proper modifiers or subject(e.g.God)however in its use in this passage those modifiers are not present
Also to look at the passage about the eternal fire....Aionios is also used without modifiers that make it "eternal"
2.0
Resurrection to life or death

Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(1Co 15:12-22 KJV)

So yes....ALL will be resurrected.
And what more is said about this resurrection ?

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
(Joh 5)

ALL will be made alive..resurrected...some to eternal life, some to eternal condemnation.

In the current passage you are using ,damnation has no modifier that makes it eternal damnation. If you wish to strengthen your argument base it on a foundation that is not "in question"

preistsplace · Jun 16, 2009

2.5
The resurrection body

Now this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor can corruption inherit incorruption.
(1Co 15:50 EMTV)

But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what sort of body do they come?" Fool, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that will be, but a bare grain--perhaps wheat or some other grains. But God gives to it a body just as He desired, and to each of the seeds its own body.
All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is a different kind of flesh for men, and another flesh for beasts, another for fish, and another for birds. And there are celestial bodies, and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead.
The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(1Co 15:35-44 EMTV)

These who reign with Christ during the millennial reign quite apparently DO have their resurrection bodies since death has no power over them and they live thru the millenium with Christ.
Scripture shows that the rest were resurrected afterward and judgment taking place.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:4-15 KJV)

Rev 20:10 AndG2532 theG3588 devilG1228 that deceivedG4105 themG846 was castG906 intoG1519 theG3588 lakeG3041 of fireG4442 andG2532 brimstone,G2303 whereG3699 theG3588 beastG2342 andG2532 theG3588 false prophetG5578 are, andG2532 shall be tormentedG928 dayG2250 andG2532 nightG3571 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165
Forever and ever????? so you can add to forever.......Hmmmm Having more than an infinite amount of time is a complete impossibility......The word AION means age So perhaps here translations such as the Concordant Literal or Rotherhams Emphasised would be more exact.
Rev 20:10 And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." CLV Eons of the eons well an eon has a beggining and an end.
Rev 20:10 and, the Adversary that had been deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where were both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented, day and night, unto the ages of ages. Rotherhams...
Ages of the ages while it can be a very very long time certainly has a begginning and an end

3.0
Torment
And here again, these PEOPLE who take the mark.
Notice the word is not 'kolasis' which is an argument used by some.

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(Rev 14:9-10 KJV)

The sameG846 shall(G2532) drinkG4095 ofG1537 theG3588 wineG3631 of theG3588 wrathG2372 of God,G2316 which is poured outG2767 without mixtureG194 intoG1722 theG3588 cupG4221 of hisG848 indignation;G3709 andG2532 he shall be tormentedG928 withG1722 fireG4442 andG2532 brimstoneG2303 in the presenceG1799 of theG3588 holyG40 angels,G32 andG2532 in the presenceG1799 of theG3588 Lamb:G721
(Rev 14:10 KJV+)

G928
βασανίζω
basanizō
bas-an-id'-zo
From G931; to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.

Again, context of the whole SHOWS torment....

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
(Luk 16:28 KJV)

Luk 16:28 ForG1063 I haveG2192 fiveG4002 brethren;G80 thatG3704 he may testifyG1263 unto them,G846 lestG3363 theyG846 alsoG2532 comeG2064 intoG1519 thisG5126 placeG5117 of torment.G931

G931
βάσανος
basanos
bas'-an-os
Perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch stone, that is, (by analogy) torture: - torment.

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:11 KJV)

Rev 14:11 AndG2532 theG3588 smokeG2586 of theirG848 tormentG929 ascendeth upG305 for ever and ever:G1519 G165 G165 andG2532 they haveG2192 noG3756 restG372 dayG2250 norG2532 night,G3571 who worshipG4352 theG3588 beastG2342 andG2532 hisG848 image,G1504 andG2532 whosoeverG1536 receivethG2983 theG3588 markG5480 of hisG848 name.G3686
Forever and ever....again there can be no more than eternity.......
Rev 14:11 And, the smoke of their torment, unto ages of ages, ascendeth; And they have no rest day or night, who do homage unto the beast and his image, or if anyone receiveth the mark of his name.Rotherhams
Ages of the ages again while it could be a very long time it is in no way eternal........

And here we have the rich man in hell asking for water to cool his tongue.

and longing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. And even the dogs came and would lick his sores. And it came to pass that the beggar died, and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom.

The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am suffering in this flame.'
(Luk 16:21-24 EMTV)

SUFFERING
G3600
ὀδυνάω
odunaō
od-oo-nah'-o
From G3601; to grieve: - sorrow, torment.

The words are clear that the rich man is suffering because of the 'flame' and wants to be cooled.
G5395
φλόξ
phlox
flox
From a primary φλέγω phlegō (to “flash” or “flame” a blaze: - flame (-ing).

G2711
καταψύχω
katapsuchō
kat-ap-soo'-kho
From G2596 and G5594; to cool down (off), that is, refresh: - cool.

Sounds like a guy thats pretty hot, no ?
Hell and death have not yet been cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.
And remeber at no time did I say the the evildoer would not be punished

continued....

Click to expand...

Zaac · Jun 16, 2009

Tissue said:
Just wanting to kickstart another discussion of universalism, as controversial as it is.

I'm sympathetic to the movement myself, but not enough to count myself among their number (yet, perhaps). I do find it practically impossible to be joyful if I include the doctrine of hell in my theology. I find it equally impossible to be melancholy if I remove the doctrine of hell in my theology.

I'm currently digging around some of the early (pre-Augustine) church fathers who did not support a doctrine of hell; I'm also looking in to Carlton Pearson's book 'The Gospel of Inclusion'.

Let's talk.

The Lake of Fire, the Second Death, is eternal. I'm just curious as to what universalist think should be done with those who continue to reject Christ?

Should they be placed back in the Garden of Eden atmosphere of God's earthly Kingdom after spending a million or so years of eternity in the Lake of Fire?

At what point is the SIN issue dealt with? Jesus Christ walked with the masses and showed Himself doing signsad wonders , yet because of the condition of the human heart, they still rejected Him.

So why do universalist think that God is ultimately gonna save folks who don't want to be saved?

Rajni · Jun 16, 2009

Zaac said:
So why do universalist think that God is ultimately gonna save folks who don't want to be saved?

This question assumes that a human's ability to reject God is more powerful
than God's power to transform them.

.

Rajni · Jun 16, 2009

preistsplace said:
Thomas Allin states in Christ Triumphant:
"All forms of partial salvation are but so many different ways of saying that evil is in the long run too strong for God."
I agree if we say that Jesus came to save the WORLD but could not save everyone because mans will to sin was greater that God's ability to save

Amen!
Regardless of the rationalizations, the bottom line is that Jesus' mission was
to save the lost. So if one is lost, He's targeting them for salvation. Being
lost is the prerequisite.

.

Zaac · Jun 16, 2009

chaela said:
This question assumes that a human's ability to reject God is more powerful
than God's power to transform them.

.

Does God's word show any examples of Him forcing anyone to change and accept Him?

If He were just going to force people to accept Him and then save them, then the Cross was a waste of time.

Us being here on earth right now is a waste of time if God is just going to transform everyone to accept Him.

Why didn't He just transform satan before he got the opportunity to bring sin into the world and thus prevent Himself from having to go to the Cross?

He HAD to go to the Cross in order for men to be saved. And those who reject Him as Lord and Savior cannot be saved, but will spend eternity separated from Him just as they CHOSE.

peace4ever · Jun 16, 2009

Zaac said:
Does God's word show any examples of Him forcing anyone to change and accept Him?

If He were just going to force people to accept Him and then save them, then the Cross was a waste of time.

Us being here on earth right now is a waste of time if God is just going to transform everyone to accept Him.

Why didn't He just transform satan before he got the opportunity to bring sin into the world and thus prevent Himself from having to go to the Cross?

He HAD to go to the Cross in order for men to be saved. And those who reject Him as Lord and Savior cannot be saved, but will spend eternity separated from Him just as they CHOSE.

Yes, there are many verses, in fact, most of the bible that tells us that only those to whom God gives His spirit have victory over Satan because Jesus has victory over Satan. Here are only a few of them:

John 6:64
1 Corinthians 2:14
Ephesians 2:8-9, Ezekiel 36:27,
Matthew 11: 25-27

To name a few. So it's the exact opposite; what makes the cross a waste of time is if man himself, can change his own sinful nature, thus, Christ' would have died for nothing. So the whole key is that since only God knows who His elect are, then salvation is open to anyone who wants it.

Zaac · Jun 16, 2009

peace4ever said:
Yes, there are many verses, in fact, most of the bible that tells us that only those to whom God gives His spirit have victory over Satan because Jesus has victory over Satan. Here are only a few of them:

John 6:64
1 Corinthians 2:14
Ephesians 2:8-9, Ezekiel 36:27,
Matthew 11: 25-27

To name a few. So it's the exact opposite; what makes the cross a waste of time is if man himself, can change his own sinful nature, thus, Christ' would have died for nothing. So the whole key is that since only God knows who His elect are, then salvation is open to anyone who wants it.

But does God give His Spirit...His indwelling ...to those who are going to reject It? That wouldn't make much sense.

That just doesn't change that some will continue to reject Him and will spend eternity,forever and ever, in the Lake of Fire.

Rajni · Jun 16, 2009

Zaac said:
Does God's word show any examples of Him forcing anyone to change and accept Him?

It goes further than that it shows that God is behind the inner workings of
mankind itself:

He turned their heart to hate His people, to plot against His
servants. (Psalm 105:25)

All abiding on the earth are reckoned as naught: According to His
will is He doing...with those abiding on the earth. (Daniel 4:35)

Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is
racing, but of God, the Merciful. (Romans 9:16)

Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He
will, He is hardening. (Romans 9:18)

Has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same
kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for
dishonor? (Romans 9:21)

The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps
(Proverbs 16:9).

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord
(Proverbs 16:33).

Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord
will be established (Proverbs 19:21).

Man's steps are ordained by the Lord (Proverbs 20:24).

The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD;
He turns it wherever He wishes. (Proverbs 21:1)

"For it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for
His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

"all things through Him did happen, and without Him happened
not even one thing that hath happened." (John 1:3)

"I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man
to direct his steps." (Jeremiah 10:23)

"But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may
be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through
God." (John 3:21)

"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will
fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father." (Matthew
10:29)

"In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according
to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with
the purpose of His will," (Ephesians 1:11)

"Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in
Me? The words I say to you are not just My own. Rather, it is the
Father, living in Me, who is doing His work." (John 14:10)

"Jesus gave them this answer: 'I tell you the truth, the Son can do
nothing by Himself; He can do only what He sees His Father doing,
because whatever the Father does the Son also does.'" (John
5:19)

Note: According to John 14:10 and 5:19 above, not even Jesus Himself
operated apart from Gods will, yet how many mortal humans insist they can
operate autonomously apart from God? They have some nerve, eh? LOL!

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in
my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out
your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at
work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
(Philippians 2:12)

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all
of them in all men. (1 Corinthians 12:6)

From one man he made every nation of men, that they should
inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them
and the exact places where they should live. (Acts 17:26)

Note: If God is so bold as to determine where we should live here on earth,
why would we insist He not do so with regards to where we spend eternity?
Clay, meet Potter.

Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles
and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against Your holy
servant Jesus, whom You anointed. They did what Your power
and will had decided beforehand should happen. (Acts 4:27-28)

Us being here on earth right now is a waste of time if God is just going to transform everyone to accept Him.

How so?

If He were just going to force people to accept Him and then save them, then the Cross was a waste of time.

How so?

Why didn't He just transform satan before he got the opportunity to bring sin into the world and thus prevent Himself from having to go to the Cross?

Good question! Maybe you should ask Him!

He HAD to go to the Cross in order for men to be saved.

Why? If its up to mankind to make The Right Choice, why would
Jesus have to go through the trouble He did for us?

And those who reject Him as Lord and Savior cannot be saved, but will spend eternity separated from Him just as they CHOSE.

So the power to save is actually in mans hands, not Gods? Which god
are we talking about, again?

.

Rajni · Jun 16, 2009

Zaac said:
But does God give His Spirit...His indwelling ...to those who are going to reject It? That wouldn't make much sense.

I think it's more a case that the giving of His Spirit is what heals a person of
their inclination to reject Him. Part of the transformation process from the old
man to the new is receiving the indwelling Spirit of God. Once that takes
place, the person is a new creation.

That's my understanding of it, but again it depends on which sector of
Christianity you talk to!

Zaac · Jun 16, 2009

chaela said:
It goes further than that it shows that God is behind the inner workings of
mankind itself:

He turned their heart to hate His people, to plot against His
servants. (Psalm 105:25)

All abiding on the earth are reckoned as naught: According to His
will is He doing...with those abiding on the earth. (Daniel 4:35)

Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is
racing, but of God, the Merciful. (Romans 9:16)

Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He
will, He is hardening. (Romans 9:18)

Has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same
kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for
dishonor? (Romans 9:21)

The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps
(Proverbs 16:9).

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord
(Proverbs 16:33).

Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord
will be established (Proverbs 19:21).

Man's steps are ordained by the Lord (Proverbs 20:24).

The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD;
He turns it wherever He wishes. (Proverbs 21:1)

"For it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for
His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

"all things through Him did happen, and without Him happened
not even one thing that hath happened." (John 1:3)

"I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man
to direct his steps." (Jeremiah 10:23)

"But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may
be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through
God." (John 3:21)

"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will
fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father." (Matthew
10:29)

"In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according
to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with
the purpose of His will," (Ephesians 1:11)

"Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in
Me? The words I say to you are not just My own. Rather, it is the
Father, living in Me, who is doing His work." (John 14:10)

"Jesus gave them this answer: 'I tell you the truth, the Son can do
nothing by Himself; He can do only what He sees His Father doing,
because whatever the Father does the Son also does.'" (John
5:19)

Note: According to John 14:10 and 5:19 above, not even Jesus Himself
operated apart from Gods will, yet how many mortal humans insist they can
operate autonomously apart from God? They have some nerve, eh? LOL!

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in
my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out
your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at
work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
(Philippians 2:12)

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all
of them in all men. (1 Corinthians 12:6)

From one man he made every nation of men, that they should
inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them
and the exact places where they should live. (Acts 17:26)

Note: If God is so bold as to determine where we should live here on earth,
why would we insist He not do so with regards to where we spend eternity?
Clay, meet Potter.

Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles
and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against Your holy
servant Jesus, whom You anointed. They did what Your power
and will had decided beforehand should happen. (Acts 4:27-28)

How so?

How so?

Good question! Maybe you should ask Him!

Why? If its up to mankind to make The Right Choice, why would
Jesus have to go through the trouble He did for us?

So the power to save is actually in mans hands, not Gods? Which god
are we talking about, again?

.

Still not a single example of God transforming anyone and making them accept Him as Lord and Savior.

Rajni · Jun 16, 2009

Zaac said:
Still not a single example of God transforming anyone and making them accept Him as Lord and Savior.

ROFL!!!
Okay, Zaac, whatever you say!

.

.

Zaac · Jun 16, 2009

chaela said:
I think it's more a case that the giving of His Spirit is what heals a person of
their inclination to reject Him. Part of the transformation process from the old
man to the new is receiving the indwelling Spirit of God. Once that takes
place, the person is a new creation.

That's my understanding of it, but again it depends on which sector of
Christianity you talk to!

But the Spirit does not come until AFTER someone has accepted Him as Lord and Savior.

Zaac · Jun 16, 2009

chaela said:
ROFL!!!
Okay, Zaac, whatever you say!

.

.

What?It's not showing that God made anyone accept Him. Yes God directs the steps of those who have accepted Him. But is there ever any example BIBLICALLY of Him forcing someone to accept Him as Lord and Savior if they don't want?

Again, if He ever does that, then this whole thing we call the human struggle is a waste of time.

He should just force everyone to accept Him and we move on.

Rajni · Jun 16, 2009

Zaac said:
What?It's not showing that God made anyone accept Him. Yes God directs the steps of those who have accepted Him. But is there ever any example BIBLICALLY of Him forcing someone to accept Him as Lord and Savior if they don't want?

Again, if He ever does that, then this whole thing we call the human struggle is a waste of time.

He should just force everyone to accept Him and we move on.

It's showing that one's accepting Him or not is according to His timing and
His choosing, not according to ours.

He forces people to be born the first time, and at a time of His choosing;
He very well can force them to be born the second time, at a time of His
choosing.

That's why He's called "God".

.

Zaac · Jun 16, 2009

chaela said:
It's showing that one's accepting Him or not is according to His timing and
His choosing, not according to ours.

He forces people to be born the first time, and at a time of His choosing;
He very well can force them to be born the second time, at a time of His
choosing.

That's why He's called "God".

.

There is no Biblical foundation that you guys have presented that says that god forces people to accept Him as Lord and Savior.

Again, yall totally discount the Cross if He is just gonna ultimately force folks to accept Him.

Universalism

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Liberated by God's Unconditional Love

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☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯

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☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯

☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯

Well-Known Member

☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯

Well-Known Member

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