Universalism...why not?

surrender1 said:

If God wants all to be saved AND he can save all, then he WILL save all.

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That's what's been "wrong" with this thread throughout. There is a weak case that can be made from Scripture for Universalism, but the thread keeps mixing in illogical and emotional appeals like this one that keep the discussion confused.

surrender1 said:

If my child became a wayward soul, as any loving parent I would do everything I could to woo him back to a healthy and restorative place. I would never give up on him. I would put no time limits on my love and patience towards him.

If our Father desires all men to be saved, why can't he continue to work on their souls postmortem? If he wanted to, couldn't he do it? Can't God do what he wants to do? I think he can do what he wants to do.

So, if God desires all men to be saved and if God can do what he wants to do, he wouldn't put a time limit (i.e. upon death) on his love and patience towards us.

So, if God's love and patience run out on a soul upon death, either God doesn't want all men to be saved or God can't do what he wants to do. Which is it?

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Couldn't cast a vote because my answer was not an option.
God can do what he wants. God set the universe into action by a system of laws which cannot be interrupted...says so in Job. Likewise,He set in place a covenant with mankind and that covenant is governed by Law and Gospel. He does not violate His covenant.
God knows the heart and thoughts of a man and is fully able to judge. See the thief on the cross for example as well as those to whom the "last worker" refer to in the parable of the workers.

surrender1 said:

So God desires everyone to be saved but doesn't do it or can't do it?

From your post, sounds like you're saying God *desires* everyone to be saved and God *can* save everyone, if he wants to.

So, if he desires and he can, then he will. Right?

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This is where the confusing part begins lol. God does desire that all souls be saved but me personally, I believe in election ( not to feel special or for a power trip) because it makes the most sense. God is almighty...he's not too weak to save anyone... I do believe it all simply comes down to God's sovereignty-- none of deserves to be saved ...he doesn't choose who he does choose because theirs something special in them...no ..simply because of His mercy and he can have mercy on whom ever He wants... When it comes to free will I believe it pertains to the elect imo, even though God draws them they can still choose to reject Gods offer.... That's my take on things.

surrender1 said:

It's just to put millions of Jews (mothers, fathers, kids 15 years old and and up or whatever) in hell after undergoing starvation and gassing to death in concentration camps? This is just one example. What about all the kids born into the wrong religion? What about kids stolen from their homes and put into sex trafficking and then dying there, but they had not believed the gospel story someone told them because if there was a god, surely he wouldn't allow such atrocities happen to them? It's just to send these people to hell?

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I don't think god would send these people to hell, I understand your frustration but I believe God is fair and he wouldn't send people to hell who haven't had a chance to come to knowledge of him

This is where the confusing part begins lol. God does desire that all souls be saved but me personally, I believe in election ( not to feel special or for a power trip) because it makes the most sense. God is almighty...he's not too weak to save anyone... I do believe it all simply comes down to God's sovereignty-- none of deserves to be saved

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Your posts highlight an important point.

IF, as we've been told before, God can save everyone, therefore he must save everyone...

...there's no need for anything that's in the Bible dealing with The Fall, good and evil, justification or salvation, sanctification or judgment. We'd simply be like the birds of the air, existing, and then getting eternal life in the bird spirit world. No savior needed, no Incarnation, no triumph over death in the Resurrection, etc. None of that. We'd simply exist and continue on existing regardless.

Far Side Of the Moon said:

This is where the confusing part begins lol. God does desire that all souls be saved but me personally, I believe in election ( not to feel special or for a power trip) because it makes the most sense. God is almighty...he's not too weak to save anyone... I do believe it all simply comes down to God's sovereignty-- none of deserves to be saved ...he doesn't choose who he does choose because theirs something special in them...no ..simply because of His mercy and he can have mercy on whom ever He wants... When it comes to free will I believe it pertains to the elect imo, even though God draws them they can still choose to reject Gods offer.... That's my take on things.

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Well, you neglect some important passages with your reasoning, here's one...

Ephesians 2:8-9:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

throughfireytrial said:

Well, you neglect some important passages with your reasoning, here's one...

Ephesians 2:8-9:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

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I know the passages. Just didn't feel like putting them in there.

I was raised as a Southern Baptist, so I was acquainted with Damnationism. I was also a member of the SDA church for a while, so I knew about Annihilationism. Then, I learned about Universalism from a man who admitted the Bible seemed to teach all three. There it was - a trilemma. In the fall of 2014 I began a two-year investigation into the KJV to see which was true. I found that the support for Damnationism was mostly inserted into the text, that the evidence for Annihilationism was very scanty, and that Universalism fit the facts (text) best, and by a big margin. Here are my conclusions:


1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, John 1:3, and many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together – without “hell.”


2. In Genesis 1, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.


3. The Creation is properly a hierarchy, not a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.


4. God made both good and evil – therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.


5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.


6. N/A

7. God warns of death, but not of Hell. See Genesis 2:17, 3:3, Romans 6:23.


8. All people die, but none of them go to ECT – only to the grave/pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the CCR.


9. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.


10. ECT depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato.


11. The Law given to Moses does not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments are delivered in the real world. See Exodus through Deuteronomy.


12. All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4.


13. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there – and thus, for most of living humanity.


14. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Romans 6:7,16.


15. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.


16. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but MK Baxter has Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in ECT, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on…


17. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.


18. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7.


19. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.


20. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.


21. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – either fire or soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.


22. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:11-15.


23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.


24. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is a 404. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.

A full treatment of the subject would require a reading of the 220-page book I have written, but only a very few copies are out there, yet.

SeventyOne said:

Is this a biblical assumption where you can provide verses saying this, or is it just what you'd prefer it to be?

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Is that what you believe annihilationists are?

mkgal1 said:

This video may shock a lot of you---and most will probably believe this retired bishop is a heretic....but this doctrine is fully accepted (and believed) by a LOT of Christians:

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Yes, he is a heretic. He obviously rejects the actual statements of Scripture, and makes up his own "gospel".
He is correct in one tiny respect, the common concept of "Hell" is NOT Scriptural. Hell, hades, death, the grave, asleep, destroyed, burned up, not inherit .... are synonyms.

Klavs Krauklis said:

I have a question about the story of the prodigal son. To whom is this story applying to if we take into account the verses about dogs returning to vomit and swines to the mire? The prodigal also went out to sin just as the dog or swine, but one could return to Father's home, but the other couldn't. At what point a believer becomes a 'son' so that even if He goes out to sin, can come back again? What seperates these two?

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Jehovah/YHVH God explained it this way, through the prophet Ezekiel;
Ezek 18:20-24 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Dartman said:

Jehovah/YHVH God explained it this way, through the prophet Ezekiel;
Ezek 18:20-24 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

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You didn't catch my question I think. My question was why one could return home while the other couldn't? As it's said about the fool that his final condition is worse that the first...

I shall attempt to dig you up the discussion on Multiverse Theory that I posted over in the Science forum...... because I am convinced that these two topics are connected.

Klavs Krauklis said:

You didn't catch my question I think. My question was why one could return home while the other couldn't? As it's said about the fool that his final condition is worse that the first...

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You are right, I didn't catch that.
According to Jesus, there is only one unforgivable sin;
Matt 12:31-32 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
In context, this sin is KNOWING a miracle was performed by God's power, but claiming it was of satan.

ALL other sins CAN be forgiven ...... IF, and only if, there is repentance.

The Scriptures, and a careful observation of life, reveals that sin is deceptive;

2 Thess 2:9-12 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Rom 1:28-32 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Knowingly rejecting God is VERY risky! God can allow the rebel to reach a state of mind beyond recovery.

surrender1 said:

This parable was about the consequences of not heeding the signs of the times, which was the time of God's messenger warning the nation of Israel to repent for the kingdom was at hand and if they continued to harden their hearts, coming national judgment was on the way.

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It is about eternal judgement, not national. It is answering your initial question if you really think about it.

19“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

Dartman said:

You are right, I didn't catch that.
According to Jesus, there is only one unforgivable sin;
Matt 12:31-32 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
In context, this sin is KNOWING a miracle was performed by God's power, but claiming it was of satan.

ALL other sins CAN be forgiven ...... IF, and only if, there is repentance.

The Scriptures, and a careful observation of life, reveals that sin is deceptive;

2 Thess 2:9-12 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Rom 1:28-32 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Knowingly rejecting God is VERY risky! God can allow the rebel to reach a state of mind beyond recovery.

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What does "because they received not the love of the truth" mean? What does it mean to receive the love of truth?

I would love to believe that God saves everyone. At one point I was really hoping that He would and kind of 'read into it'. I don't believe that anymore really. I would love it though. But for me what totally doesn't make sense is all the videos on youtube with sincere people testifying that they were shown hell by Jesus or angels, that their relatives, different types of sinners, diffrent places in hell were shown. My wishful thinking went so far that I just hoped and talked it off in my mind, thinking that maybe it's a tactic of God - to scare people from hell so that they would run to Him and that it wasn't true actually. I cannot believe it anymore though. I believe that the testimonies are true and that unfortunately there are sheep and goats.

"I never knew you..." and into the eternal punishment.