Universalism...why not?

Which is it?

  • God doesn't want all men to be saved.

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • God can't do what he wants to do.

    Votes: 2 4.1%
  • Neither, God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

    Votes: 40 81.6%
  • Don't know...never thought about this before.

    Votes: 3 6.1%

  • Total voters
    49

Dartman

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V.22 speaks of how all humanity will be given life, i.e. "in Christ":

22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."

In doesn't say "by Christ" but IN Christ.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor.5:17)
It's the same as "in Adam". Death is "in Adam", Life is "in Christ".
The topic of verse 22 is NOT "those that are in Christ", it is "life is in Christ".
Verse 23 then specifies "they that are Christ's".
 
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Dartman

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The order of verse 50 is the opposite of that:

Matt 13:49-50 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
"There" discusses location, NOT order. It isn't "THEN" there shall be.
 
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Dartman

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Dartman said:
Everlasting life is only for those who "become servants to God" in THIS life.
There's no Scripture in support of that & much against it.
You know better!
There are TWO results of resurrection;

For those "found written in the book of life"; Life everlasting, also called eternal life, inherit all things.

For those "NOT found written in the book of life: Death, "burned up", "ashes", everlasting contempt.

There is no 3rd result. There is no 2nd chance. There is no 3rd resurrection.
Ezek 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Since there are NO "repentant sinners" that live past a human life span, we KNOW this is discussing 2nd death.
Ezek 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
According to the verse, he has already died in sins, but he is going to die AGAIN, we KNOW this is called 2nd death! The wicked will RETURN to the grave;
Ps 9:16-17 The Lord is known by His justice; the wicked are ensnared by the work of their hands.
Higgaion. Selah 17 The wicked return to the grave, all the nations that forget God.
 
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ClementofA

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It's the same as "in Adam". Death is "in Adam", Life is "in Christ".
The topic of verse 22 is NOT "those that are in Christ", it is "life is in Christ".
Verse 23 then specifies "they that are Christ's".


"AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
BUT each in his own order:

1. Christ the Firstfruit;

2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;

3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.).

But each in his own order. Not a "but" of exception,
rather a "but" of order. ALL are to be made alive but at
different times. "Each in his own order." Three orders
are enumerated and located in relation to other events:

1. Christ the Firstfruit — Three days alter His death.

2. Then those who are Christ's — At His coming.

3. Then the end [order] — WHEN He shall deliver up the
kingdom.

It is the third or "end" order that many overlook. A
thoughtful reading of this passage will enable most be-
lievers to see clearly that the words "then cometh the
end" refer to this end order to be made alive. The sub-
ject the apostle is elucidating is: The order in which
all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ (vs. 22-
24). Christ the firstfruit (order one) and those who
are Christ's at His coming (order two) comprise only
a small part of the all who die in Adam. A third order
is necessary to make all alive. To refer the "end" to
anything else is to ignore the context and to introduce
something foreign to the subject. It cannot possibly
refer to an end of the kingdom, for though the kingdom
will be "delivered up" to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24), it
will never end (Luke 1:33)."
 
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ClementofA

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"There" discusses location, NOT order. It isn't "THEN" there shall be.

The translation of aion as world is a poor one. It should be translated "age" not world.
The Greek word for "world" is kosmos, not aion.

Matt 13:49-50 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

It looks like people are in this furnace & still alive wailing. Shouldn't they be dead in your endless annihilation theory?
 
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ClementofA

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Ezek 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Since there are NO "repentant sinners" that live past a human life span, we KNOW this is discussing 2nd death.
Ezek 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
According to the verse, he has already died in sins, but he is going to die AGAIN, we KNOW this is called 2nd death! The wicked will RETURN to the grave;
Ps 9:16-17 The Lord is known by His justice; the wicked are ensnared by the work of their hands.
Higgaion. Selah 17 The wicked return to the grave, all the nations that forget God.

Another poor translation. Better is:

"The wicked shall return to Sheol,..." (Psa.9:17a)

Sheol is Hades, not the lake of fire or the second death.

"What is meant is that the career of the wicked in this world will be cut short by the judgement of God. Cp. Psalm 55:15, Psalm 63:9. "

There is nothing here supporting the theory of endless annihilation.

-----------


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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Dartman

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"AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
BUT each in his own order:

1. Christ the Firstfruit;

2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;

3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.).

But each in his own order. Not a "but" of exception,
rather a "but" of order. ALL are to be made alive but at
different times. "Each in his own order." Three orders
are enumerated and located in relation to other events:

1. Christ the Firstfruit — Three days alter His death.

2. Then those who are Christ's — At His coming.

3. Then the end [order] — WHEN He shall deliver up the
kingdom.

It is the third or "end" order that many overlook. A
thoughtful reading of this passage will enable most be-
lievers to see clearly that the words "then cometh the
end" refer to this end order to be made alive. The sub-
ject the apostle is elucidating is: The order in which
all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ (vs. 22-
24). Christ the firstfruit (order one) and those who
are Christ's at His coming (order two) comprise only
a small part of the all who die in Adam. A third order
is necessary to make all alive. To refer the "end" to
anything else is to ignore the context and to introduce
something foreign to the subject. It cannot possibly
refer to an end of the kingdom, for though the kingdom
will be "delivered up" to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24), it
will never end (Luke 1:33)."
You are correct, the kingdom does NOT end,
the change is, Jesus as king turns the authority over to his God, so God is "all in all".
In contrast to your previous posts, there is NO end to reigning, there is a change in KING.
The ORDER of events is;
*Christ was resurrected to immortality.
*Those that are Christ's WILL BE resurrected to immortality "at his coming".
*Jesus and the immortal saints will reign over the mortal survivors of Christ's 2nd coming, for 1,000 years, while Satan is bound.
*Satan is loosed, and deceives the mortal nations into rebelling against Jesus, and his government.
*That does NOT work out well for them, God sends fire from heaven.
*Jesus resurrects "the rest of the dead", those wicked from creation to his 2nd coming, and ALL of the mortals who have died since his coming.
*Those raised in the 2nd resurrection are judged, some get eternal life, the rest are "cast into the lake of fire", are "burned up", "return to their graves", "ashes".
*THEN God renews heaven and earth, LEAVES heaven and comes to the "new earth", Jesus turns the kingdom over to his God, and the righteous, and Jesus, are God's sons and daughters.
ALL of this fully supportable in Rev 20, 21 and 22.
 
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ClementofA

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You know better!
There are TWO results of resurrection;

For those "found written in the book of life"; Life everlasting, also called eternal life, inherit all things.

For those "NOT found written in the book of life: Death, "burned up", "ashes", everlasting contempt.

"This popular assertion, however, is fallacious. The fact that such a claim should so long endure and conquer, is proof of the power of deception."

The vast majority of learned sources agree the word aionios, & the noun, aion, can refer to a duration which is of a limited time period that has an end. The real issue here, then, is whether or not the word means a limited time period in the context of Matthew 25:31-46 in regards to punishment. That is something that should be a matter of serious study rather than assumptions based on what my pastor or bible study group assumes to be the case.

Considering the Greek word kolasis ("punishment", Mt.25:46, KJV) can refer to a corrective punishment, that should tell the reader of Matthew 25:46 what the possible duration of aionios ("everlasting", KJV) is & that it may refer to a finite punishment. Why? Because since it is corrective, it is with the purpose of bringing the person corrected to salvation. Oncce saved the person no longer has need of such a punishment & it ends. So it isn't "everlasting". [Or if it "everlasting", it is only everlasting in its positive effect]. Therefore this passage could just as easily support universalism as anything else.

From a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp):

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology


"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."
http://journalofanalytictheology.com/jat/index.php/jat/article/viewFile/jat.2015-3.181913130418a/271

"Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases.5 However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether."

"Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel and the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles, or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages."

"In addition, Augustine’s reasoning does not hold up in light of Ro. 16:25, 26 and Hab. 3:6. Here, in both cases, the same word is used twice—with God and with something temporal. “In accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now…according to the injunction of the eonian God” (Ro. 16:25, 26 CLT). An eonian secret revealed at some point cannot be eternal even though it is revealed by the eonian God. Eonian does not make God eternal, but God makes eonian eternal. “And the everlasting mountains were scattered.…His ways are everlasting” (Hab. 3:6). Mountains are not eternal, though they will last a very long time. God’s ways however, are eternal, because He is eternal." Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jude 7 speaks of the fire that destroyed Sodom as an example of "aionion fire" (the same words aionion fire used in Mt.25:41, compare v.46). Did Sodom burn forever?

Philo was contemporary with Christ & we have this translation of his words which use the same words Christ used at Mt.25:46:

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment [kolasis aiónios] from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct." Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

In the year 544 A.D. the emperor Justinian wrote a letter:

"It is conceded that the half-heathen emperor held to the idea of endless misery, for he proceeds not only to defend, but to define the doctrine.2 He does not merely say, "We believe in aionion kolasin," for that was just what Origen himself taught. Nor does he say "the word aionion has been misunderstood; it denotes endless duration," as he would have said, had there been such a disagreement. But, writing in Greek, with all the words of that abundant language from which to choose, he says: "The holy church of Christ teaches an endless aeonian (ateleutetos aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked." If he supposed aionios denoted endless duration, he would not have added the stronger word to it. The fact that he qualified it by ateleutetos, demonstrated that as late as the sixth century the former word did not signify endless duration.
Chapter 21 - Unsuccessful Attempts to Suppress Universalism

If Christ meant "endless" punishment at Mt.25:46, why use the ambiguous aionios? Why not instead use the word aperantos ("endless"; 1 Timothy 1:4)? Or why not use the words "no end" as in Lk1:33b: "And of His kingdom there will be no end"? The answer seems obvious.

Early Church Father universalists who were Greek scholars & many others of the time did not see Mt.25:46 contradicting their belief:

"The first Christians, it will be seen, said in their creeds, "I believe in the æonian life;" later, they modified the phrase "æonian life," to "the life of the coming æon," showing that the phrases are equivalent. But not a word of endless punishment. "The life of the age to come" was the first Christian creed, and later, Origen himself (an Early Church Father universalist) declares his belief in æonian punishment, and in æonian life beyond. How, then, could æonian punishment have been regarded as endless?"
Another Aionios Thread - These Things Go On Forever


"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

Chapter Nine

As regards the fate of the Jewish people, early in the gospel of Saint Matthew Jesus' word does correct them re the false teachings of endless torments and annihilation, as follows:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

"Isn't it ironic that the passage most often used to support everlasting punishment is in fact one strongly opposing it when accurately understood?" (Tom Talbott, author of "The Inescapable Love of God").

Thomas Talbott - Wikipedia
http://www.thomastalbott.com/index.php
 
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Dartman

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Another poor translation. Better is:

"The wicked shall return to Sheol,..." (Psa.9:17a)
Sheol is just fine as a translation. It merely means the grave. It means: they are dead.

ClementofA said:
Sheol is Hades, not the lake of fire or the second death.
Same thing. Just like drowning in the flood, being swallowed by the earth, being torn apart by animals, being hung on a cross.

They are ALL dead, ALL in Sheol.
 
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Dartman

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"This popular assertion, however, is fallacious. The fact that such a claim should so long endure and conquer, is proof of the power of deception."

The vast majority of learned sources agree the word aionios, & the noun, aion, can refer to a duration which is of a limited time period that has an end. The real issue here, then, is whether or not the word means a limited time period in the context of Matthew 25:31-46 in regards to punishment. That is something that should be a matter of serious study rather than assumptions based on what my pastor or bible study group assumes to be the case.

Considering the Greek word kolasis ("punishment", Mt.25:46, KJV) can refer to a corrective punishment, that should tell the reader of Matthew 25:46 what the possible duration of aionios ("everlasting", KJV) is & that it may refer to a finite punishment. Why? Because since it is corrective, it is with the purpose of bringing the person corrected to salvation. Oncce saved the person no longer has need of such a punishment & it ends. So it isn't "everlasting". [Or if it "everlasting", it is only everlasting in its positive effect]. Therefore this passage could just as easily support universalism as anything else.

From a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp):

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology


"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."
http://journalofanalytictheology.com/jat/index.php/jat/article/viewFile/jat.2015-3.181913130418a/271

"Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases.5 However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether."

"Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel and the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles, or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages."

"In addition, Augustine’s reasoning does not hold up in light of Ro. 16:25, 26 and Hab. 3:6. Here, in both cases, the same word is used twice—with God and with something temporal. “In accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now…according to the injunction of the eonian God” (Ro. 16:25, 26 CLT). An eonian secret revealed at some point cannot be eternal even though it is revealed by the eonian God. Eonian does not make God eternal, but God makes eonian eternal. “And the everlasting mountains were scattered.…His ways are everlasting” (Hab. 3:6). Mountains are not eternal, though they will last a very long time. God’s ways however, are eternal, because He is eternal." Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jude 7 speaks of the fire that destroyed Sodom as an example of "aionion fire" (the same words aionion fire used in Mt.25:41, compare v.46). Did Sodom burn forever?

Philo was contemporary with Christ & we have this translation of his words which use the same words Christ used at Mt.25:46:

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part
of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment [kolasis aiónios] from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other
line of conduct." Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

In the year 544 A.D. the emperor Justinian wrote a letter:

"It is conceded that the half-heathen emperor held to the idea of endless misery, for he proceeds not only to defend, but to define the doctrine.2 He does not merely say, "We believe in aionion kolasin," for that was just what Origen himself taught. Nor does he say "the word aionion has been misunderstood; it denotes endless duration," as he would have said, had there been such a disagreement. But, writing in Greek, with all the words of that abundant language from which to choose, he says: "The holy church of Christ teaches an endless aeonian (ateleutetos aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked." If he supposed aionios denoted endless duration, he would not have added the stronger word to it. The fact that he qualified it by ateleutetos, demonstrated that as late as the sixth century the former word did not signify endless duration.
Chapter 21 - Unsuccessful Attempts to Suppress Universalism

If Christ meant "endless" punishment at Mt.25:46, why use the ambiguous aionios? Why not instead use the word aperantos ("endless"; 1 Timothy 1:4)? Or why not use the words "no end" as in Lk1:33b: "And of His kingdom there will be no end"? The answer seems obvious.

Early Church Father universalists who were Greek scholars & many others of the time did not see Mt.25:46 contradicting their belief:

"The first Christians, it will be seen, said in their creeds, "I believe in the æonian life;" later, they modified the phrase "æonian life," to "the life of the coming æon," showing that the phrases are equivalent. But not a word of endless punishment. "The life of the age to come" was the first Christian creed, and later, Origen himself (an Early Church Father universalist) declares his belief in æonian punishment, and in æonian life beyond. How, then, could æonian punishment have been regarded as endless?"
Another Aionios Thread - These Things Go On Forever


"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

Chapter Nine

As regards the fate of the Jewish people, early in the gospel of Saint Matthew Jesus' word does correct them re the false teachings of endless torments and annihilation, as follows:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

"Isn't it ironic that the passage most often used to support everlasting punishment is in fact one strongly opposing it when accurately understood?" (Tom Talbott, author of "The Inescapable Love of God").

Thomas Talbott - Wikipedia
http://www.thomastalbott.com/index.php
Your cut-n-paste retort is merely annoying. It adds nothing accurate to the discussion.
 
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The translation of aion as world is a poor one. It should be translated "age" not world.
The Greek word for "world" is kosmos, not aion.

Matt 13:49-50 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

It looks like people are in this furnace & still alive wailing. Shouldn't they be dead in your endless annihilation theory?
The text doesn't state they continue wailing, it merely states wailing an gnashing of teeth will be there.
We cannot interpret Scripture in isolation, and OTHER texts reveal significant truths, that create a very detailed "mosaic" of harmonious truth.
Those thrown into the furnace/Lake of fire are burned up, they are ashes, they return to sheol/the grave.
 
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ClementofA

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Your cut-n-paste retort is merely annoying. It adds nothing accurate to the discussion.

Mistranslations annoy God. My post addressed that subject & final destiny.
 
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ClementofA

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The text doesn't state they continue wailing, it merely states wailing an gnashing of teeth will be there.

The text was a very poor one for your view.

Those thrown into the furnace/Lake of fire are burned up, they are ashes, they return to sheol/the grave.

No, they get out of sheol(=hades) before they are judged.

And...IF...anyone is not found in the book of life...

"Indeed, it is nowhere said that sinners will remain in the lake of fire forever."
 
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ClementofA

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You are correct, the kingdom does NOT end,
the change is, Jesus as king turns the authority over to his God, so God is "all in all".
In contrast to your previous posts, there is NO end to reigning, there is a change in KING.
The ORDER of events is;
*Christ was resurrected to immortality.
*Those that are Christ's WILL BE resurrected to immortality "at his coming".
*Jesus and the immortal saints will reign over the mortal survivors of Christ's 2nd coming, for 1,000 years, while Satan is bound.
*Satan is loosed, and deceives the mortal nations into rebelling against Jesus, and his government.
*That does NOT work out well for them, God sends fire from heaven.
*Jesus resurrects "the rest of the dead", those wicked from creation to his 2nd coming, and ALL of the mortals who have died since his coming.
*Those raised in the 2nd resurrection are judged, some get eternal life, the rest are "cast into the lake of fire", are "burned up", "return to their graves", "ashes".
*THEN God renews heaven and earth, LEAVES heaven and comes to the "new earth", Jesus turns the kingdom over to his God, and the righteous, and Jesus, are God's sons and daughters.
ALL of this fully supportable in Rev 20, 21 and 22.

Go ahead. I don't believe you can provide Scriptures from those 3 chapters only that support your every statement.
 
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Dartman

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Dartman said:
You are correct, the kingdom does NOT end,
the change is, Jesus as king turns the authority over to his God, so God is "all in all".
In contrast to your previous posts, there is NO end to reigning, there is a change in KING.
The ORDER of events is;
*Christ was resurrected to immortality.
*Those that are Christ's WILL BE resurrected to immortality "at his coming".
*Jesus and the immortal saints will reign over the mortal survivors of Christ's 2nd coming, for 1,000 years, while Satan is bound.
*Satan is loosed, and deceives the mortal nations into rebelling against Jesus, and his government.
*That does NOT work out well for them, God sends fire from heaven.
*Jesus resurrects "the rest of the dead", those wicked from creation to his 2nd coming, and ALL of the mortals who have died since his coming.
*Those raised in the 2nd resurrection are judged, some get eternal life, the rest are "cast into the lake of fire", are "burned up", "return to their graves", "ashes".
*THEN God renews heaven and earth, LEAVES heaven and comes to the "new earth", Jesus turns the kingdom over to his God, and the righteous, and Jesus, are God's sons and daughters.
ALL of this fully supportable in Rev 20, 21 and 22.
Go ahead. I don't believe you can provide Scriptures from those 3 chapters only that support your every statement.
Actually, chapter 20, and just the first few verses of 21 are all that's necessary;
Rev 20:1-21:8 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, Satan is bound.3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.Satan is loosed, and deceives the mortal nations into rebelling against Jesus, and his government. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.*Jesus and the immortal saints will reign over the mortal survivors of Christ's 2nd coming, for 1,000 years, while Satan is bound.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about,
Satan is loosed, and deceives the mortal nations into rebelling against Jesus, and his government. and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. *That does NOT work out well for them, God sends fire from heaven.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before the throne;
*Jesus resurrects "the rest of the dead", those wicked from creation to his 2nd coming, and ALL of the mortals who have died since his coming. and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.*Those raised in the 2nd resurrection are judged, some get eternal life, the rest are "cast into the lake of fire", are "burned up", "return to their graves", "ashes".
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
*Those raised in the 2nd resurrection are judged, some get eternal life, the rest are "cast into the lake of fire", are "burned up", "return to their graves", "ashes".

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
*THEN God renews heaven and earth, LEAVES heaven and comes to the "new earth", Jesus turns the kingdom over to his God, and the righteous, and Jesus, are God's sons and daughters.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 
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Actually, chapter 20, and just the first few verses of 21 are all that's necessary;
Rev 20:1-21:8 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, Satan is bound.3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.Satan is loosed, and deceives the mortal nations into rebelling against Jesus, and his government. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.*Jesus and the immortal saints will reign over the mortal survivors of Christ's 2nd coming, for 1,000 years, while Satan is bound.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about,
Satan is loosed, and deceives the mortal nations into rebelling against Jesus, and his government. and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. *That does NOT work out well for them, God sends fire from heaven.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before the throne;
*Jesus resurrects "the rest of the dead", those wicked from creation to his 2nd coming, and ALL of the mortals who have died since his coming. and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.*Those raised in the 2nd resurrection are judged, some get eternal life, the rest are "cast into the lake of fire", are "burned up", "return to their graves", "ashes".
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
*Those raised in the 2nd resurrection are judged, some get eternal life, the rest are "cast into the lake of fire", are "burned up", "return to their graves", "ashes".

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
*THEN God renews heaven and earth, LEAVES heaven and comes to the "new earth", Jesus turns the kingdom over to his God, and the righteous, and Jesus, are God's sons and daughters.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Where does it say some get eternal life?

Or Jesus turns the kingdom over to his God?
 
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Dartman

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Dartman said:
Actually, chapter 20, and just the first few verses of 21 are all that's necessary;
Rev 20:1-21:8 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, Satan is bound.3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.Satan is loosed, and deceives the mortal nations into rebelling against Jesus, and his government. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.*Jesus and the immortal saints will reign over the mortal survivors of Christ's 2nd coming, for 1,000 years, while Satan is bound.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, Satan is loosed, and deceives the mortal nations into rebelling against Jesus, and his government. and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. *That does NOT work out well for them, God sends fire from heaven.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before the throne;*Jesus resurrects "the rest of the dead", those wicked from creation to his 2nd coming, and ALL of the mortals who have died since his coming. and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.*Those raised in the 2nd resurrection are judged, some get eternal life, the rest are "cast into the lake of fire", are "burned up", "return to their graves", "ashes".
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.*Those raised in the 2nd resurrection are judged, some get eternal life, the rest are "cast into the lake of fire", are "burned up", "return to their graves", "ashes".

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.*THEN God renews heaven and earth, LEAVES heaven and comes to the "new earth", Jesus turns the kingdom over to his God, and the righteous, and Jesus, are God's sons and daughters.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Where does it say some get eternal life?

Or Jesus turns the kingdom over to his God?
I think we have made some amazing progress.
ALL of the points stated, and confirmed in Rev 20:1-21:8, you have been forced to concede.
The ONLY points you could manage to find, that this specific passage doesn't mention, are points we have agreed on already!
This is wonderful!

Of course, you KNOW the Scriptures clearly teach "some" get "eternal life" .... in fact Jesus said "few".
And, we have been discussing MANY times, how Jesus turns the kingdom over to his God .... so those truths were already established, before this part of the discussion.
 
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ClementofA

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I think we have made some amazing progress.
ALL of the points stated, and confirmed in Rev 20:1-21:8, you have been forced to concede.
The ONLY points you could manage to find, that this specific passage doesn't mention, are points we have agreed on already!
This is wonderful!

Of course, you KNOW the Scriptures clearly teach "some" get "eternal life" .... in fact Jesus said "few".
And, we have been discussing MANY times, how Jesus turns the kingdom over to his God .... so those truths were already established, before this part of the discussion.

Such silly nonsense.

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the sons of men.…

Rom.5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

1 Cor.3:13-17 teaches the salvation of all mankind, as do many other passages of the Scriptures. Such as 1 Tim.2:4-6, 1 Tim.4:9-11, Col. 1:20, Phil.2:9-11, etc
 
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Dartman

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Such silly nonsense.

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the sons of men.…
Of course, even though Jehovah punished Israel, He WILL restore them!!

ClementofA said:
Rom.5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
Of course, ALL people have the ability to obtain life, through Jehovah's holy servant, Jesus of Nazareth.
The sad truth is, most will not accept that help.

ClementofA said:
1 Cor.3:13-17 teaches the salvation of all mankind, as do many other passages of the Scriptures. Such as 1 Tim.2:4-6, 1 Tim.4:9-11, Col. 1:20, Phil.2:9-11, etc
No ClementofA, Just like I have proven repeatedly, these texts simply do NOT teach your theory.
AND, Just like I have proven repeatedly, MANY other texts make it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR, the wicked are;
Destroyed; ... Matt 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
And, yes I know, you will TRY to twist the word "destruction" here to mean something OTHER THAN the way Jesus used it .... which is in direct contradiction to "life".
Again, the two paths ... 1=destruction, 2=life. These are opposites.
Do I think YOU will repent of your deception? Sadly no.
Do I think ANY objective reader will understand the obvious? Gladly, yes!
 
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Of course, even though Jehovah punished Israel, He WILL restore them!!

There's no mention of Israel here:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the sons of men.…

Since the Lord does not cast off forever, those in the lake of fire are not lost & not cast off forever. The Lord wants to save them & has not given up on them, nor ever will. He will "have compassion" towards them. He "afflicts" them for their own good, that they repent and be saved. Which they will.


Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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