Universalism...why not?

Which is it?

  • God doesn't want all men to be saved.

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • God can't do what he wants to do.

    Votes: 2 4.1%
  • Neither, God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

    Votes: 40 81.6%
  • Don't know...never thought about this before.

    Votes: 3 6.1%

  • Total voters
    49

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
One should not make claims and assertions they cannot back up. Perhaps you could quote something from these specific sources you named which disprove eternal punishment, e.g. Paul, Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, Origen?
Okay. Well....then your turn, because you are making claims that universal reconciliation is heretical....so prove to me where Paul and John speak of hell.....or provide some passages from Genesis that describe the fate of "unbelievers". Those are pretty foundational parts of the Bible....if God's whole agenda had to do with getting souls to heaven and not hell.....certainly that would be emphasized in those books of the Bible (or those authors). It doesn't seem clear to me that it IS the agenda. You've not provided much to support your assertion.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,488.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
People that are truly interested will do their own research, but this may be a good place to start:
Isaac of Syria - OrthodoxWiki
Clement of Alexandria - OrthodoxWiki
Origen - OrthodoxWiki
That ain't the way it works Ma'am! You made the claim the burden of proof is on you to support your claim. I have never heard of Isaac of Syria. He was not an early church father, I found out he supposedly was a 7th century bishop in Nineveh who abdicated after 5 months then spent the rest of his life studying the scripture.
Here are a few quotes from specific works of Origen and Clement of Alexandia.

– • – Clement Alexandria Exhortation to the Heathen [153-193-217 AD]
And you know not that, of all truths, this is the truest, that the good and godly shall obtain the good reward, in as much as they held goodness in high esteem; while, on the other hand, the wicked shall receive meet punishment. For the author of evil, torment has been prepared; and so the prophet Zecharias threatens him: "He that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee; lo, is not this a brand plucked from the fire? "120 What an infatuated desire, then, for voluntary death is this, rooted in men's minds! Why do they flee to this fatal brand, with which they shall be burned, when it is within their power to live nobly according to God, and not according to custom? For God bestows life freely; but evil custom, after our departure from this world , brings on the sinner unavailing remorse with punishment.
He bestows salvation, you sink down into destruction; He confers everlasting life, you wait for punishment, and prefer the fire which the Lord "has prepared for the devil and his angels."
ANF02. Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• – Clement of Alex. The Instructor [Paedagogus] Bk 2
There was a certain man," said the Lord, narrating, "very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day." This was the hay. "And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man's gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table." This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father's bosom.
ANF02. Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• – The Second Epistle of Clement.
For if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; otherwise, nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we disobey His commandments. For thus also saith the Scripture in Ezekiel, "If Noah, Job, and Daniel should rise up, they should not deliver their children in captivity."38 Now, if men so eminently righteous are not able by their righteousness to deliver their children, how39 can we hope to enter into the royal residence40 of God unless we keep our baptism holy and undefiled?
ANF10. Bibliographic Synopsis; General Index - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• – Origen [a.d. 185-230-254.] Against Celsus. Book V Chap. XVI.
And perhaps, as it is appropriate to Children that some things should be addressed to them in a manner befitting their infantile condition, to convert them, as being of very tender age, to a better course of life; so, to those whom the word terms “the foolish things of the world,” and “the base,” and “the despised,” the just and obvious meaning of the passages relating to punishments is suitable, inasmuch as they cannot receive any other mode of conversion than that which is by fear and the presentation of punishment, and thus be saved from the many evils (which would befall them).29 The Scripture accordingly declares that only those who are unscathed by the fire and the punishments are to remain, - those, viz., whose opinions, and morals, and mind have been purified to the highest degree; while, on the other hand, those of a different nature - those, viz., who, according to their deserts, require the administration of punishment by fire - will be involved in these sufferings with a view to an end which it is suitable for God to bring upon those who have been created in His image, but who have lived in opposition to the will of that nature which is according to His image. And this is our answer to the statement, “All the rest of the race will be completely burnt up, but they alone are to remain.”
–• – Origen Against Celsus. Book VIII. Chap. LII.
For you will find that they have not entirely lost the common notions of right and wrong, of good and evil. Let all men, therefore, when they look upon the universe, observe the constant revolution of the unerring stars, the converse motion of the planets, the constitution of the atmosphere, and its adaptation to the necessities of the animals, and especially of man, with all the innumerable contrivances for the well-being of mankind; and then, after thus considering the order of the universe, let them beware of doing ought which is displeasing to the Creator of this universe, of the soul and its intelligent principle; and let them rest assured that punishment shall be inflicted on the wicked, and rewards shall be bestowed upon the righteous, by Him who deals with every one as he deserves, and who will proportion His rewards to the good that each has done, and to the account of himself that he is able to give. And let all men know that the good shall be advanced to a higher state, and that the wicked shall be delivered over to sufferings and torments, in punishment of their licentiousness and depravity, their cowardice, timidity, and all their follies.
• – Origen De Principiis. Book IV. Chap. I
23. For perhaps as those who, departing this world in virtue of that death which is common to all, are arranged, in conformity with their actions and deserts - according as they shall be deemed worthy - some in the place which is called “hell,” others in the bosom of Abraham, and in different localities or mansions; so also from those places, as if dying there, if the expression can be used, do they come down from the “upper world” to this “ hell.” For that “ hell” to which the souls of the dead are conducted from this world, is, I believe, on account of this distinction, called the “lower hell” by Scripture, as is said in the book of Psalms: “Thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell” (Cf. Psa_30:3 and Deu_32:22)


 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,488.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Okay. Well....then your turn, because you are making claims that universal reconciliation is heretical....so prove to me where Paul and John speak of hell.....or provide some passages from Genesis that describe the fate of "unbelievers". Those are pretty foundational parts of the Bible....if God's whole agenda had to do with getting souls to heaven and not hell.....certainly that would be emphasized in those books of the Bible (or those authors). It doesn't seem clear to me that it IS the agenda. You've not provided much to support your assertion.
In my link:[post #1079] I provided evidence that Jesus spoke about eternal punishment, hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die etc. It is irrelevant that Paul or other writers do not mention hell. If Jesus mentioning hell is not enough I don't what it.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
It is irrelevant that Paul or other writers do not mention hell. If Jesus mentioning hell is not enough I don't what it.
Many people have already posted that most of what is used of Jesus' words to support an idea of hell has been debated (it's questionable).

My point is.....if the entire agenda of God's is about heaven and hell (dividing souls between the two "places")....don't you think Paul would continue that teaching in his writing....and warn people of their possible doom? Shouldn't that be a common thread throughout the entire Bible? Yet we don't even have the main NT writers mentioning it. once. (as far as I know....you're welcome to show me otherwise).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die etc.
Hmmmm.....worms don't die from that fire? What do you suppose that means? That sounds to me like a completely different kind of fire (what I've been saying all along). Things are sort of inverted and completely reversed in God's hands (where our strength comes from our weaknesses....and the last are first and the first are last......and we live by dying......etc). Maybe instead of destroying....this fire (which God Himself is described as) heals, restores, redeems and reconciles?

>>>For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people's sins against them. And He gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation.~2nd Corinthians 5:19

>>>For our God is a consuming fire.~Hebrews 12:29
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,488.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Many people have already posted, that most of what is used of Jesus' words to support an idea of hell has been debated.
My point is.....if the entire agenda of God's is about heaven and hell (dividing souls between the two "places")....don't you think Paul would continue that teaching in his writing....and warn people of their possible doom? Shouldn't that be a common thread throughout the entire Bible? Yet we don't even have the main NT writers mentioning it. once. (as far as I know....you're welcome to show me otherwise).
Arguments and objections are not evidence. Someone saying "I'm right and you're wrong ! Am too! Nuh huh!" does not disprove anything I said. How many times and in how many places does something have to be mentioned in the Bible to make it true? What the Jews call the great Shema is mentioned only once.
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear[Shema], O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
2 Thessalonians 1:9
(9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Hebrews 10:28-29
(28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
(29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
....and speaking of completely changed world:

Daily Meditations said:
[...]Jesus did not come to change the mind of God about humanity (it did not need changing)! Jesus came to change the mind of humanity about God. God in Jesus moved people beyond the counting, weighing, and punishing model, that the ego prefers, to the utterly new world that Jesus offered, where God's abundance has made any economy of merit, sacrifice, reparation, or atonement both unhelpful and unnecessary. Jesus undid "once and for all" (Hebrews 7:27; 9:12; 10:10) all notions of human and animal sacrifice and replaced them with his new economy of grace, which is the very heart of the gospel revolution.


We all need to know that God does not love us because we are good; God loves us because God is good. Nothing humans can do will ever decrease or increase God's eternal eagerness to love.

Adapted from Eager to Love: The Alternative Way of Francis of Assisi,
pp. 183-188
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
How many times and in how many places does something have to be mentioned in the Bible to make it true?
There is a "plot" to the Bible---and a plot should run ALL the way through. The way I see it....the plot is God's love for us--His creation--and I can see that all the way from Genesis 1:1 all the way through to Revelation 22:21 (which happens to read, "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen")
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
2 Thessalonians 1:9
(9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;



9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

Regarding the mistranslation "eternal": "166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") – properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age);..." Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5)
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (Jn.2:19)

Mt.25:46, punishment, kolasis, "2851. kolasis...Short Definition: chastisement, punishment..."

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."
Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology


"Does the eschatological destruction of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 exclude all redemptive possibilities? Nothing in the text requires such a reading." Continued at:

Thomas Talbott: The Inescapable Love of God (part 5)

II Thessalonians 1:8-9
 
  • Like
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,488.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
There is a "plot" to the Bible---and a plot should run ALL the way through. The way I see it....the plot is God's love for us--His creation--and I can see that all the way from Genesis 1:1 all the way through to Revelation 22:21 (which happens to read, "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen")
What was the first negative commandment God gave to Adam? And what happened in regard to that commandment? Gen 2:16-17, 3;14-16, 3;23-24
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Nonbelievers who are doing all the sinful things they do are certainly not "building on the foundation of Christ."
I don't see labels like that in Paul's letters (nonbeliever/believer)....even so, just as this passage shows, it's not only "nonbelievers" who "do all the sinful things" as this letter is correcting the people of the Church at Corinth for their "living by the flesh". In my view.....God wishes to purify humanity from ALL sin (allowing free will to remain intact....encouraging genuine righteousness...not forcing it or manipulating people into it).

All mankind is inherently "in Adam" because mankind is literally, physically descended from Adam, we have his DNA.
.....All mankind is not inherently "in Christ." One must be "in Christ" to be saved by Him. This vs. does not say "by Adam all die, even so by Christ shall all be made alive" and it does not say "because of Adam all die, even so because Christ shall all be made alive"
When that's read in the framework of one paradigm, one would see it that way. But....that language ("in Christ") doesn't necessarily limit humanity to one select group (at the exclusion of the rest).

Have you read the Athanasian creed? It says,

Athanasian Creed said:
Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead.

A major aspect of the incarnation is that God assumed our humanity (redeeming it). As St Maximus had written :

“What has not been assumed has not been healed.

The point is the integration, both in Jesus and in ourselves (Gal 2:20)

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. And the life that I now live in my body, I live by faith, indeed, by the faithfulness of God’s Son, who loved me and gave himself for me."
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ClementofA
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
What was the first negative commandment God gave to Adam? And what happened in regard to that commandment? Gen 2:16-17, 3;14-16, 3;23-24
Interesting that your focus is negative.

But.....yes, another plot can be death and life (and with Christ "swallowing up death" I see "death" as a separation from God of our own making....like the older brother in the story of the Prodigal son). I see the end of the story being, "He WILL reconcile the whole world unto Himself".
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,488.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
* * * Deleted ! * * *
I do not address large blocks of quoted text from your pet websites. As for the false accusation about the "mistranslation" of "eternal: 66 aiṓnios." Here are quotes from real Greek scholars and real Greek languages sources not internet wannabes, which have never been refuted.
.....Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.
Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,
166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers
2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
"The predominant meaning of αιωνιος , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.
αιωνιος is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of αιωνιος here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."
From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
67.96 αιωνιος aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.
The most frequent use of αιωνιος in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αιωνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αιωνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.
αιωνιος aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).
Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.
αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.
Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.
166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} αιωνιος from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.
CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).
Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]
In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown
Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): "Time," he says, "is the number of movement, but there is no movement without a physical body. But outside heaven it has been shewn that there is not, nor possibly can come into existence, any body. It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios
Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.
0166 aionios αιωνιος without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting

LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
αιωνιος (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).

1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.
BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY
αιωνιος

• Strong's - Greek 165
NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text): again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds
CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);
The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):
In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end
aion - αιων - age, world

A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
• aionion, aionios – αιωνιον, αιωνιος - eternal

B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.
• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)
• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – εις τους αιωνας των αιωνιωον
- Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System. [/indent]
What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I do not address large blocks of quoted text from your pet websites.
But you expect others to address your large blocks of quoted texts from your "pet websites"? Or is it just a dual of quoted text?
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I do not address large blocks of quoted text from your pet websites.
..

Half of my post was from the scriptures & lexica. The lexica was from a anti universalist site. The other half included a brief quote from a review of a scholarly work. OTOH there is your very long post of quoted materials.



As for the false accusation about the "mistranslation" of "eternal: 66 aiṓnios." Here are quotes from real Greek scholars and real Greek languages sources not internet wannabes, which have never been refuted.
....

These just support my position as follows, which you have never been able to disprove & have consistently ignored, like ostrich head in the sand:

Considering that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, your reputable biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions. Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions i posted gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in the specific context. What your biased scholars have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
  • Like
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,488.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
But you expect others to address your large blocks of quoted texts from your "pet websites"? Or is it just a dual of quoted text?
Like the person I was responding to you apparently consider quoting a long argument made by some person on the internet on a par with quotes from Greek lexicons and Encyclopedias? The difference is some folks copy/paste canned arguments from some website, I don't copy other people's argument I state a premise and support it with quotes from standard reference works.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I state a premise and support it
Not really. You've not been able to support your assertion that heaven/hell and a separation of souls with the destruction of the "out group" is truly the Christian agenda of God using the major NT authors of Paul and John (or any reference in Genesis). It it truly were what the whole gospel message was.....I'd think it would show up in writings by those main NT authors (and in Genesis--the whole beginning).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,488.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Half of my post was from the scriptures & lexica. The lexica was from a anti universalist site. The other half included a brief quote from a review of a scholarly work. OTOH there is your very long post of quoted materials.
Quotes from languages sources are fine but the argument part was copy paste. I state my own arguments I do not copy/paste them from some website.
These just support my position as follows, which you have never been able to disprove & have consistently ignored, like ostrich head in the sand:
Considering that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, your reputable biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions. Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions i posted gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in the specific context. What your biased scholars have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.
"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)
"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these autho Empty accusations are meaningless!rs themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."
Considering that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, your reputable biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their own theological Universalist opinions. Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. What your biased scholars have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own Universalist opinions, which is shameful. As you can see empty accusations are meaningless.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,488.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Not really. You've not been able to support your assertion that heaven/hell and a separation of souls with the destruction of the "out group" is truly the Christian agenda of God using the major NT authors of Paul and John (or any reference in Genesis).
Irrelevant logical fallacy, argument from silence.
Argumentum ad ignorantiam (argument to ignorance). This is the fallacy of assuming something is true simply because it hasn't been proven false. For example, someone might argue that global warming is certainly occurring because nobody has demonstrated conclusively that it is not. But failing to prove the global warming theory false is not the same as proving it true.
Whether or not an argumentum ad ignorantiam is really fallacious depends crucially upon the burden of proof. In an American courtroom, where the burden of proof rests with the prosecution, it would be fallacious for the prosecution to argue, "The defendant has no alibi, therefore he must have committed the crime." But it would be perfectly valid for the defense to argue, "The prosecution has not proven the defendant committed the crime, therefore you should declare him not guilty." Both statements have the form of an argumentum ad ignorantiam; the difference is the burden of proof.
Logical Fallacies and the Art of Debate
Argumentum ex Silentio (Argument from Silence): The fallacy that if available sources remain silent or current knowledge and evidence can prove nothing about a given subject or question this fact in itself proves the truth of one's claim.
Master List of Logical Fallacies
 
Upvote 0