Universalism VS. Scripture

[stumpjumper]

Well, will there be judgment in heaven?

I don't think we can get past the view that sanctification, justification, and salvation is a process. C.S. Lewis, Barth, and more recently McLaren (just referencing those that I have read) all viewed it as such.

We will be judged and through judgment sanctified and reconciled. It is a process that occurs in Christ though.

How did he describe forgiveness?

Well you know the forgives 70 times 7 passage which means that God's forgiveness is limitless. Sins are forgiven and forgotten because sin cannot exist in God's presence and this ties into the passage "the wages of sin is death". Sin leads to death but only because we cannot eternally exist as sinful creatures.

Salvation is by grace through faith. Calvinists and universalists -- in different ways -- do tend to misunderstand the meaning of "faith" as loyalty to God. How do we know whether one loves God? Whether he does what Jesus said to do.

I really think that it is grace alone even though we should do good works because that is what we should want to do.

But, salvation is from Grace alone.

 

[Martinez]

I would like to tell a parable if I may.


one day there were two men out for a walk.
one of the men was wearing a ridiculously heavy rain coat, even though the sun was shinning and there was not a cloud in the sky.
the other man was not wearing a rain coat at all.

the man who was not wearing the rain coat, turned to the man who was, and said,
um sir, I mean no disrespect but.....why are you wearing that rain coat when the sun is shining and there is not a cloud in the sky?

the man turned around very angry!
why wouldn't I be wearing one?
do you not notice that it is pouring down by the bucket load?
and where is your rain coat?
do you wan't to catch your death of cold?
asked the man with sweat dripping down his face and the sun beating down on him with not a cloud in the sky.

what are you talking about?
asked the man without a rain coat.
are you insane?
not only is it not raining, but there is not even a cloud in the sky!

but the raincoat man replied, how can you say that it isn't raining did not the wheather man forecast rain for this afternoon?
you would do well my friend to go put on some dry clothes lest you catch your death of cold.
you don't want to die do you?

to which the man with no rain coat replied,

surely you have lost it big time my friend.
obviously the wheather man got it wrong, take a look around, surely you can see that it is not raining, in fact there is not even a cloud in the sky!

at this the rain coat guy flew into a rage!

how dare you question the wheathermans authority!
you and those like you shall perish from the cold and wet!
and don't say that the weatherman did not warn you, you the foolish ones!

and at that the rain coat guy stormed off, the sun shining on him, with sweat dripping down his face, and not a cloud in the sky.

now I must point out at this stage,
the wheather wasn't wrong.
the man without the rain coat wasn't wrong.
could it be that the wheatherman was wrong?

 

[Mikecpking]

here something I have from my study notes..

HELL : ETERNAL SEPARATION Solemn reality

Bible teaching on the subject of judgment is clear and awesome in its seriousness. Those who remain unrepentant when confronted with God's claims, who reject his will even when it is made known to them, who continue to live in rebellion; these face a fearful destiny. The most common word in English for the fate of these who have passed under God's final judgment and stand guilty is 'Hell'.

Hell is a reality of unspeakable solemnity. It is not a place, it is a dimension. It is a 'nothing realm', a terrible negative; it is eternal destruction, it is separation from 'the presence of the Lord' [2Th 1:8-9]. Permanent inaccessibility to God, carrying into eternity the decision taken by a person in this life.

The biblical language about this ultimate separation from God is not intended as a description; instead the images like those of 'fire', 'darkness' and 'sulphur' are symbolic. They describe a reality beyond present experience. They are divinely inspired, but they don't tell us everything, however, they do not mislead us. We must have care when speaking about 'Hell'. It is more terrible than we can imagine, yet we must not use lurid descriptions to frighten people into responding to the gospel, but neither must we minimise the power of the warnings.







Sorry, but that is Dead wrong!

If you are going to use the parts in the bible that have been wrongly translated to say Hell instead of Sheol, Gehenna, etc...
then you must include the verse where David Says,

"though I make my bed in Hell, you are there!"

How can God be there and not there at the same time?
He can't.
Eternal seperation from God is a stupid theological argument.

Can We have a little common sense please!

Hi,
Care to read the next paragraphs? Sheol and Hades in OT and NT respectively should be translated "Grave", but the heading "Hell" in this context is talking about the consequences of not ending up in eternal Shalom.
Like the notes state, one must use care when comparing "the grave" with a place of "destruction".

 

[Mikecpking]

Hi Martinez,
It will probably best if I posted the whole thing.

FLASHPOINT PAROUSIA Momentous moment

Suddenly, like a thief in the night, like the onset of childbirth, like the spring of a snare, the 'parousia' will break upon the world. Like a blast upon some vast celestial war horn it will be signalled. A fanfare of proclamation that will rivet the attention of the whole human race. In one awesome gesture the veil between heaven and earth will be torn apart, like cosmic lightning ripping through the storm clouds of this age. And there, for every age to see, the sole focus of this unique moment, will be Jesus, in all the majesty of godhead, the risen and exalted Christ. Here will be tangible presence, the thrill of arrival, the tension of unveiling, the trauma of full manifestation, and terror of the ultimate theophany.

Here is the 'flash point' of the ages, the 'omega point' of space, time and history the fulcrum of God's purposes, the central eschatological event, the inauguration of the new order, the transformation of the universe. Without the Parousia the human story has no goal, no meaning, no purpose. Here is the end; every rule, power and authority will be destroyed. Here is the beginning. Here is the single, many-sided, event that concludes one era with resurrection and judgment, while giving birth to another with a new heaven and earth. Here the 'Day of the Lord', central to the Hebrew vision of hope, inaugurated in the incarnation, is consummated.

Here is the final triumph and vindication of Jesus coming with 'power and glory'. It stands in total contrast to the humble and seemingly insignificant circumstances of his first coming. At the Parousia his power, splendour and kingship will be in no doubt, every knee will bow and acknowledge him as 'King of Kings' and 'Lord of Lords'. And yet the Parousia is inseparably linked with the incarnation, atonement, resurrection and ascension. It does not inaugurate what has not been in process since his first coming; rather it brings everything to a complete climax. Here is the final establishing of God's perfect rule.

The most vivid imagination cannot picture the true nature of this event. As it happens all voices will be struck silent. In its aftermath no tongue will be fully able to communicate its breathtaking impact. It will be unlike any other historical event. Its only parallel will be creation 'ex nihilo'. Nevertheless, the certainty of the parousia is more important than its circumstances. We may not know what to expect, or when, but we do know whom to expect. This is all that matters.

End-time pictures

There are three words used in the New Testament to describe the return of Jesus. Each of them presents an illustration of what the event will be like :-

• 'Parousia' : This is the most common New Testament term. It has the sense of 'presence1, like an audience with a ruler. It also has the sense of; 'coming'; or 'arrival'; like the visit of the Emperor or a dignitary to a city. A definite and decisive act, visible to all, nothing vague or uncertain; the 'Parousia' is as certain as the incarnation.[cf Mat 24:3; 27:39; ICor 15:23; ITh 2:19; 3:13; 4:15; 2Th 2:1,8; Ja 5:7; 2Pt 1:16; 3:4; 12; Un 2:28].

• 'Apokalupsis' : The literal meaning is 'unveiling' or 'disclosure', like facts revealed or made clear; the 'pulling back of the curtain', it is the true revelation of Christ himself, things which are at present hidden will then come to light and be disclosed. Present obscurity will vanish [cf ICor 1:7; 2Th 1:7; IPt 1:7; 13; 4:13].

• 'Epiphaneia' : This has the sense of 'appearing' or 'manifestation'; things which are at present 'secret' and 'invisible' are made 'known' and 'visible'. That which already exists is seen for what it really is [cf 2Th 2:8; 2Tim 4:1,8; Titus 2:13].

Placing the three pictures together gives the biblical basis for examining the awesome climactic moment in history.

Parousia hallmarks

The Christ who returns in power and glory is the same Jesus who ascended into heaven after his resurrection [Acts 1:11]. As we have seen his return is an event which is inseparable from his ascension. He is seated at the right hand of his Father now in the heavens [Eph 1:20; Acts 2:34; 7:55-56], he is ruling now until it is time for the full nature of that rule to be made manifest :-

• 'Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool' [Acts 2:35; Ps 110:1]

• 'Whom heaven must receive until the time to establish all...' [Acts 3:21]

• At his corning the present fact of his rule will become an indisputable reality

The 'parousia' will be different from every other type of historical event, it will be the final event. Its only parallel will be that of the original creation of the world out of nothing. It will be the ultimate theophany and manifestation of God beyond normal expense. Therefore in its very nature it remains a mystery until it happens. Any attempt to describe it must be an attempt to describe the indescribable. But that does not mean to say that nothing can be said about this unique act of God. The Bible speaks in 'symbol' and 'image' which though incomplete do tell us the essentials. But of course we can only ever 'know in part' [ICor 13:12].

There are four definite things that we can say about the 'parousia'. It will be:-

• Universal : It will be like it is when, 'the lightening comes from the east and shines as far as the west' [Mat 24:27]. Unquestionable. 'Every eye shall see him' [Rev 1:7. Mat 24:30-31]. As a result 'every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is both 'Messiah' and 'Lord'[Phil 2:10-11].

• Glorious : His coming will be 'on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory' [Mat 24:30; cf Dan 7:13-14]. It will be in total contrast to the weakness and obscurity of his first coming. The word 'glory' has the essential meaning of 'the weight of the manifest presence of God'; the 'clouds' symbolise the 'Shekinah' which was the quintessence of the glory of God.

• Sudden : It will break with complete unexpectedness. It will be 'as in the days of Noah' at 'an hour you do not expect' [Mat 24:38,44]. The need for 'watchfulness' due to the Parousia's unexpectedness is seen in the parables of 'the householder and the burglar' [Mat 24:43-44], and the 'bridesmaids' [Mat 25:1-13]. It will be on a day and an hour which no one but the Father knows [Mat 24:36]. It could come upon us like a 'snare' that traps an animal unawares [Lk 21:34]. It will happen 'like a thief in the night' [ITh 5:2; cf Rev 3:3; 16:15], like 'the onset of labour' in childbirth [ITh 5:3], it will also be 'in the twinkling of an eye' [ICor 15:51-52].

• Decisive : With it 'the end comes' [ICor 15:24]. It will be the terminal point. This age' will be halted; [cf Mk 13:24-27; Mat 24:29-31; Lk 21:25-35; Rev 1:7].

RESURRECTION : THE GREAT AWAKENING Resurrection truth

The resurrection of the dead is one of the primary dimensions of the 'parousia'. Every person who has ever lived upon earth will share in this event. The resurrection not only promises to be an awesome spectacle but its significance lies in its profound consequences.

Our understanding of resurrection germinates in the Hebrew scriptures, though it must be admitted that it has only a slowly developing understanding of the truth. The oft quoted words in Job 19:25-27 highlight the possibility of resurrection, but in context they are making an entirely different point. The vision of the 'Valley of dry bones' [Ezk 37:1-14] is certainly suggestive. Two references in the Psalms appear to contain flashes of hope for a resurrection [49:15; 73:24]. It is in Daniel 12:2, however, that we have the clearest statement :-

'... and many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall wake,

some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt'.​

While the thought and writings of the intertestamental period affirmed belief in the resurrection, the fact that Jesus rebukes the Sadducees so harshly for denying it [Mat 22:29-32], is evidence that the idea was far more established than some have believed. It is clearly implicit in Hebrew revelation even if not as explicit as we would expect, it is certainly the more logical interpretation. Probably the most popular notion was that a man achieved immortality through his children and by the memory of his good name.

In the New Testament the resurrection of the dead is both proclaimed and expounded. It is most clearly stated in Jesus' echo of the words of Daniel in Jn.5:28-29 :-

'... the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice,​

and come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life,

and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment'.

Other important are found throughout the New Testament [Mat 22:29-32; Mk 8:38; Lk 12:33; 16:19-31; 18:22; Jn 5:25; 6:40,44; 11:24-25; 14:3; 17:24; ICor 15; 2Cor 5:1-10; ITh 4:13-16 Rev 20:13]. We shall be referring to some of the more important of these below. The truth which is clear from them all is that the resurrection of the dead is a certain dimension of the Parousia.

 

[Mikecpking]

Continued:

Problem of death

From the human perspective death is the only human certainty. It is a fact attested to by the most ancient and primitive people, and the dilemma for the modern existentialist. It is a recurring theme in much literature, and a truth frequently stated in scripture, eg 'It is appointed for a person once to die' [Heb 9:27]. While the stark reality is ever present, few people have the courage to face it or prepare for it seriously.

Death is unnatural; it is linked to sin, the results of human rebellion against God. It is a form of God's judgment upon humanity [cf Gen 3:17; Rm 1:32; 5:12]. Yet death is also a form of God's mercy; for having stepped from God's ideal of eternal life it restricts the fruit of human rebellious existence, and gives them some focus, gives them some parameters, enables their life to be viewed as a finite whole. Condemnation to a life sentence of unending rebellion is too terrible to contemplate.

For the godless person physical death is perceived as the end. Bertrand Russell said, "When I die I rot". At best such a view intensifies the value of life, but for most it presents a hopeless

inescapable void too awful to contemplate, and is usually obliterated by pleasure seeking. The truth is however that while death is inevitable it is not terminal. Only beyond resurrection and judgment does final destinies lie. The vast majority of believers and unbelievers will have been shrouded in death before the 'parousia' comes. This fact raises some hard practical questions:-

• "In what way can a person survive death?"

• "What is the experience of someone when they are dead?"

The humanist has always scoffed at the idea of the human survival of death. They claim the notion is simply the result of human desire to compensate for their emotional need of being unable to face the reality of oblivion. However, we know that people have expressed their belief in immortality when survival has been a very unattractive prospect, and extinction would have been most welcome. We cannot of course philosophically 'prove' the case for the survival of death [nor can it be disproved]. For the Christian it is a step of faith based upon God's word.

Though we are prepared to stand upon the objective statements of scripture alone, they are not without support from natural philosophy and reason:-

• Moral demand : If one has any concept that morality is part of the structure of the universe, they surely must accept the necessity of an experience in which the injustices of this life are corrected, wrongs righted and good rewarded. As it stands 'death' is life's greatest injustice, the stifling of morality, if nothing lies beyond it everything must be ultimately meaningless. This is of course the view that many hold, not out of desire but out of unwillingness to accept the consequences of the alternative.

• Mind and body : There has been much discussion about the relationship between the 'mind' and 'brain'. If they are identical it makes it easier to argue for extinction. But is this so? If my 'mind' is not separate from the experiences of my body then concepts like 'freedom' and 'responsibility' are meaningless. All my body cells are quite different from those I had ten years ago, yet I know that I am the same person, impossible if I am no more than my physical functions. If my mind is no more than my 'brain' I cannot check the validity of my actions [like a computer]; yet I do reason and reflect. A useful, though limited, analogy is that my 'brain' is like a radio receiver for my 'mind'. When you switch off the radio you don't kill the presenter in the studio! Neither am I destroyed at death.

• Mortal gift: The Bible speaks of 'immortality' [cf 2Tim 1:10; ICor 15:50-54], but this is not to be confused with the Greek idea of the 'immortality of soul'. In this the Greeks believed that the essence of personality was the 'soul', a divine spark which possessed immortality in itself, ghost like it was freed from the prison house of the body of death. In contrast the scriptures teach that only God possesses immortality, and inasmuch as people may enjoy it, it is a gift, not a right or natural. The central teaching of biblical hope is 'the resurrection of the body'. It has no concept of a disembodied life. Resurrection is a continuation and fulfilment of our present existence. We shall develop this theme further below.

When Christians die

What happens to the Christian who dies before the 'parousia'? The New Testament uses two seemingly conflicting terms; 'asleep' [cf ITh 4:14] and 'with Christ' [cf Phil 1:23]. What are we to make of these paradoxical statements?

• Asleep : It is easy to see how the metaphor of sleep has been so frequently linked with the experience of death because at first glance the corpse looks like a person sleeping. But there is more to it than that. The Hebrew scriptures speak of Sheol as the resting place of the dead. It is a shadowy, twilight existence, which is not extinction but is less substantial than the present It is a 'nether gloom', and between individuals [cf Job 3:11-19; 10:21-22; Ps 88:11,12; 115:17].



It is possible that Paul is reflecting upon this when he speaks about not wanting to be 'found naked' [2Cor 5:3], but we cannot be certain. Samuel being 'raised' at Endor would fit into the imagery of Sheol [ISam 28:11-15]. The Hebrew imagery and the New Testament references to death as 'sleep' [cf Mk 5:39; Jn 11:11; Acts 7:60; ICor 15:51; ITh 4:14], has led some people [notably the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists] to develop the doctrine of 'soul-sleep', a kind of unconscious suspension between death and 'parousia'. This is understandable but does not take account of the other biblical statements. An interesting addition to this aspect of death is the reference to 'waiting' in Revelation 6:9-11, which suggests some 'conscious anticipation'.

• With Christ: The contrasting New Testament phrases state that at death the Christian is 'with Christ' which is 'far better' [Phil 1:23], the dying thief is told that on that very day he would be with Jesus in Paradise [Lk 23:43], Paul speaks of preferring to be 'away from the body and home with the Lord' [2Cor 5:8]. All this is very strong and forceful language. Whether or not it is helpful, we are told about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob being, 'the God of the living and not the dead' [Mk 12:24-27], Moses and Elijah are on the Mount of Transfiguration [Lk 9:30], in the parable Lazarus is in 'Abraham's bosom' [Lk 16:22], and Stephen at his death commits his spirit to Jesus [Acts 7:59].

Reconciling the concepts of 'sleep' and being 'with Christ' is not easy. The most frequent method of resolution is to see them as part of this dimension and the created order. When a Christian dies it is suggested they are released into the dimensions of eternity. They immediately are 'with Christ', it is the 'parousia' and they receive their 'resurrection body'. There is no gap in events from their perspective, though from ours it may be centuries. This is certainly a possible scenario; it takes account of most of the biblical evidence, but only 'on that Day' will we find out for certain. Our experience of sleep makes this a very persuasive suggestion. It does not however cope with suggestions of 'consciousness' during the intervening period, like 'waiting' [Rev 6:9-10] and the 'greater cloud of witnesses' [Heb 12:1]; these scriptures may well be open to interpretation.

Whatever the questions that remain about the interval between death and the 'parousia', scripture is quite clear that 'to die is far better' because we are then with the Lord [Phil 1:23]. At this present moment we are eternal, so at death we simply pass from one level of eternal life to another. Death presents not one shadow; its sting is drawn and any victory it once had has been turned into a rout. Death is the stepping stone of resurrection. Yet the dead have no advantage over the living.

Resurrection experience

What the actual resurrection event will be like we cannot know until it happens. If one can properly speak of a sequence of events at the resurrection moment, then IThessalonians 4:13-18 is the closest we can get. We are told that :-

• Jesus will descend from heaven with a cry of command ['Arise']

• there will be the archangel's call, and the sound of 'the trumpet of God'

• the 'dead in Christ' will rise first

• followed by living Christians who are alive being 'caught up' to meet him

• everyone will be transformed [Phil 3:20-21]

• the unbelieving dead will be raised following this [Jn 5:28-29]

Many people have problems in thinking about the resurrection because they see it in exclusively physical terms, with the huge numbers of people involved, the problems of decay the recomposition of bodily cells. We need to be reminded of the rebuke in Matthew 22:29, 'You know neither the scriptures, nor the power of God', whatever will be involved we must remember that personality is made up of memory, continuity of character and bodily identity. Not all of them are necessary for identity; in fact personal memory would be enough.

The basis of our resurrection is the resurrection of Jesus. Our certainty is the fact that we share in the death and resurrection of Christ, we have become one with that crisis and have passed from death to life. Our baptism, not our death [if it occurs], is the most significant thing [Gal 2:20; Col 3:1; 2:12; Rm 6:1-7; Eph 2:5-6; 2Tim 2:11]. The resurrection of Jesus anticipates God's intention for all his people at the end of the age [ICor 15:20]. United with Christ we are infused with his life :-

"I am the resurrection and the life;

the one who believes in me, though they die, yet shall they live,

and whoever believes in me shall never die".

[Jn 11:25-26]
​

The 'parousia' is not the point at which everything happens, it is rather the crisis at which what has been taking place within the believer by the spirit, 'change from one degree of glory to another' [2Cor.3:18], is fully revealed for what it is. The call of God by the Spirit through Jesus activates resurrection life from the moment of faith [Jn 5:25] sealed by baptism the transformation takes place within by the Spirit and climaxes at the 'parousia' [Jn 5:28-29]. 'It moves irresistibly and incorruptibly from the present into the new heaven and earth'.

 

[Mikecpking]

Continued:

Resurrection body

What are we to understand by the resurrection body? What will it be like? It is linked with Jesus' resurrection body, just as our very resurrection is dependent upon his. First and foremost it is 'corporate', we receive our resurrection body by virtue that we are part of the 'resurrection body of Christ'; and individual expression flows out of that fact [ICor 15:22]. The resurrection body of Jesus suggests it has new properties and dimensions [cf Jn 20:19-29; ICor 15:5-8] :-

• It will be free : Bodily resurrection is the fulfilment of redemption. It will be free from the limitations of sin and fall, disease and disability, it will enjoy the restoration of all that was corrupted, a person in the totally of life, that fullness of created glory.

• It will be unique : It will have a different form from the present and yet it will have continuity with it; like the wheat is different from the seed from which it sprang, yet is inseparable from it [ICor 15]. We shall be changed, transformed [ICor 15:51], shaped to enjoy the whole new environment in the way that the bodies of fish and birds are perfectly adapted for their environments [ICor 15:35-38]. It will be physical but not flesh and blood as we understand it [ICor 15:50], it will be like the angels, not sexual [Mk 12:24-27]. It will be the fruit of God's sovereignty and mercy.

JUDGMENT : THE GREAT ASSIZE

'Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it;

from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne,

and the books were opened ...

and the dead were judged by what was written in the books

and by what they had done'.

[Rev 20:11-12]
​

Fact of judgment

Judgment is one of the most exciting concepts in the whole of scripture. Here is God himself putting everything right. This is the point at which everything that is true and just and good is established in triumph. This is the place where all that which is false and distorted and evil is destroyed.

First and foremost resurrection is to judgment [Jn 5:29], just as no one escapes death, so no one escapes judgment. God will judge the living and the dead [cf Acts 10:42; IPet 4:5]. Everyone has two possible destinies; 'those being saved' and 'those being lost' [2Cor 5:15]. Scripture clearly speaks of the reality of divine judgment; both freedom and condemnation [cf Rm 1-3].

Judgment is an act of God's grace and mercy. Imagine the present state of affairs continuing without end. God's judgment brings things right. It ends evil, injustice, rebellion. It is the terminal point for everything outside of harmony with God. In judgment God says, 'This far and no further!" Only those in rebellion and resistance to God ['stiff necked'] have anything to fear. Judgment is something in which we may rejoice, yet a terror to those in opposition to God; so warning is vital and our responsibility crucial. Judgment is God's wrath and his mercy working themselves out together in human history and experience [cf Dt 10:18; Ezk 33:11].

Nature of judgment

God is the God of judgment [cf Mal 2:17; Dt 1:17]. It is essentially part of his activity [cf IPt 1:17; Rm 1:18]. God is 'judge of all the earth'; it is his taking rigorous action against evil [Gen 18:25].

• Judgment is a present reality. It is not confined to the future. It is already at work in human life. God has spoken his final word in Jesus, and our response to him is our response to God, bringing either salvation or destruction upon ourselves. We sentence ourselves ['the gates of hell are locked on the inside' C.S. Lewis]. Much present human experience of God's hand in judgment is in the terror of society; people reaping the consequences of their own choices and behaviour. These acts of judgment are not final, there is still time for choice, this is the time to be saved [2Cor 5:20].

• Judgment is primarily 'to come'. It is linked to the 'Day of the Lord' / 'Parousia'. It is the coming day of judgment [cf ICor 4:3-5; Am 5:18; Rm 2:15; Rev 6:17].

• Judgment is personally linked with Jesus. He is the one who exercises his Father's judgment [cf Mat 3:11-12; Jn 3:19; 5:30; 8:12].

• Judgment is unavoidable. It is as certain as death [cf Heb 9:27; 10:27; Rm 2:3; and parables Mat 13:24-50; 21:33-41 etc].

• Judgment is all encompassing. Everyone without exception will be judged [cf 2Tm 4:1; IPt 4:5]. Every aspect of life will be judged; 'the secrets of people's hearts' [Rm 2:16]. 'The counsels of human hearts' [ICor 4:5] and 'every careless word' [Mat 12:36]. Christians will be judged [cf ICor 3:12-15; Heb 10:30]. Angels will be judged [2Pt 2:4; Jude 6].

• Judgment is by God alone. This is because God alone knows what we really are [Rm 2:16].

Basis of judgment

When we understand the basis of final judgment it not only helps us to recognise God's requirement but also gives us confidence :-

• The basis of judgment is faith. Judgment has been described as being based on the 'human response to the revealed will of God'. Believers will be acquitted at God's judgment because they are justified by faith alone [cf Rm 5:1-2; Gal 2:16]. Those trusting in the perfect finished work of Christ are guaranteed acquittal at the day of judgment. Salvation proclaims that the danger of final judgment and condemnation has passed forever. Non-Christians are

also judged according to their faith; by being judged according to their response to the 'light' they have had, the witness of God within the world which they have seen :-

• it may be through nature [Rm 1:19-32]

• it may be through moral law [Rm 2:14-16]

Inasmuch as they are saved it will be only because of the redeeming work of Christ that it has been possible.

• The basis of judgment is works. Justification by the perfect character and work of Jesus is no mere technicality. Justification by faith inseparably unites us with Christ's character [cf Rm 6:1-4; Gal 2:20]. There is a moral change in our lives. His righteous character is expressed in and through us, faith without works is dead [Ja 2:26]. Justification without sanctification is not justification [Heb 2:10-13]. Fruit of the Spirit is evidence of faith, not human effort. To believe in Christ is the supreme work [Jn 6:28-29]. These works are tested by fire. Good works cannot earn the unbeliever salvation. The important parable of 'the sheep and the goats' [Mat 25:31-46] makes it clear that the good works which earn God's commendation and reward of salvation are done [though unwittingly] to Christ as they are done to his followers [his body]; 'He who receives you, receives me' [cf Mat 10:40-50]. They are a declaration of faith rising from the spirit of the individual, though they are not fully aware of the significance of the act. It is a 'sign' of their faith.

• The basis of judgment is God's character. Everyone stands condemned before God, that is what makes the gospel such good news. There is no salvation outside of the completed work of Christ. Nevertheless God is not willing that any should perish. Final judgment rests in God's hands. He retains judgment to himself, he determines human destiny. He will take into account the different degrees of the knowledge of his will and the varying degrees of ability to fulfil it. [cf Mat 11:21-24; Rm 2:12-16]. God's final judgment will be wholly just and utterly convincing. 'On that day the mercy of God will reach as far as divine love can extend' [cf Gen 18:25; Rm 3:19]. His grace and sovereignty will demonstrate it both perfect and triumphant. Nevertheless it is important always to remember :-

• 'God is not mocked, what a man sows he will reap' [Gal 6:7]

• 'It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God' [Heb 10:31]

 

[Mikecpking]

Continued:

Rewards and judgment

Scripture speaks of God rewarding his people for faithfulness and service within the world, [cf Mat 5:12; Mk 9:41; Lk 6:23; 2Jn 8; Rev 11:18]. The true nature of these rewards is not clear and will only become so on the Day of the Lord. What is clear is that the principle of rewards and punishment is already in operation [cf. Ex 20:5-6; Ps 37:5-6]. Certain scriptures emphasise this idea:-

• ICor 3:10-15 : The relative value of Christian service is likened to wood, hay, stubble, gold, silver and precious stones. At the 'parousia' a Christian life will be tested 'by fire', only that which endures this test will remain into eternity.

• Lk 19:11-26 : the work of the servants is brought under scrutiny and they receive reward relative to their faithfulness. Good stewards are commended as 'good and faithful servants' and given added responsibility.

Jesus taught that 'motive' not 'action' is of most importance; doing it for God not for people's good opinion; thus secretly. This emphasis places the idea of reward on the correct footing. It will simply be the satisfaction of seeing actions lasting into eternity that will be reward enough.

Universalism and judgment

'Universalism' is the view that in the end every man and woman will in fact be saved. There is no doubt that Universalism ought to strike a chord in the heart of every Christian; it is quite clear that God's heart is universalist [cf 2Pt 3:9]. Support for the idea of 'universalism' is found among many Christians, and for a variety of reasons :-

• it attempts to resolve the problem of the large numbers of people who hear the gospel and reject it, or who have never heard the gospel and clearly don't live by their conscience

• it proclaims that it is essential for the love of God to gain final victory, for people to go to destruction would be a frustration of God's love

• it argues that death is an arbitrary point at which to conclude the human chance to respond to God's love, surely should be a chance beyond; this has led some to suggest ideas very similar to the old concept of purgatory where a person is held until finally won by the love of God

• it teaches that the New Testament language about judgment and condemnation is 'mythical', calculated to provoke people into a response to God; final destruction is 'hypothetical' not literal

Universalism takes a number of scriptures which it believes implies its ideas and then builds its theology from there, [cf Rm 5:12:21; 2Cor 5:19; Eph 1:10; Col.l:20; Phil 2:10; ITim 2:4; 4:10;Rmll:32;Jnl2:32].

In spite of the powerful arguments of the universalist, and however strong our desire that they be true, it does not seem to match the whole witness of scripture. It is a clear fact that God longs that, if possible, everyone might be saved, but the teaching of universalism appears, none the less, to be a distortion of biblical truth :-

• scripture seems clear that the distinction between believer and unbeliever which exists in this life will continue into eternity [cf Jn 3:36; ICor 6:10].

• we are not in any position to make final judgments about people who have died, God is the final judge; only he will decide, what he decides will be just, he is our safeguard.

• while universalism places great stress on the sovereignty of God's love to achieve its purpose, it misunderstands the nature of divine love. For someone to reject the love of God is a terrible tragedy, but it does not frustrate or limit the love expressed. It is not defeat but a miracle that God can create something that actually has the ability to resist its creator. Salvation has universal scope even if some refuse to embrace it

• death appears to be the human deciding point according to scripture, whether or not one feels that it is arbitrary. We live in a real world where real choices have to be made. It is here that destinies are fixed [cf. Lk 16:19-31 - the story of 'the rich man and Lazarus']. This freedom is essential to human dignity.

• if scriptures about final judgment and condemnation are simply 'mythical' then they are in fact nothing more than empty statements. Jesus' clear warnings about the judgment to come have a very definite force to them, only the foolish will ignore them.

The biblical texts that appear to support universalism need to be viewed very carefully. The fact that ultimately everyone will have to acknowledge Jesus as Lord does not mean that they will do it in faith and obedience [cf Rev 1:7]. The gospel is universal in its appeal, salvation for all who will believe in Christ. Paul does not appear to have been a universalist.

Where someone has refused to respond to God's love they are locked into the consequences of their sin. God has done everything he can, the invitation is there, he can do nothing more. The

vast embrace of salvation will be greater than we can imagine, but clearly there will be some who will not respond. God does not want to condemn; it is not the purpose of light to cast shadows, but it is the inevitable result if one stands in the way of the light.

HELL : ETERNAL SEPARATION Solemn reality

Bible teaching on the subject of judgment is clear and awesome in its seriousness. Those who remain unrepentant when confronted with God's claims, who reject his will even when it is made known to them, who continue to live in rebellion; these face a fearful destiny. The most common word in English for the fate of these who have passed under God's final judgment and stand guilty is 'Hell'.

Hell is a reality of unspeakable solemnity. It is not a place, it is a dimension. It is a 'nothing realm', a terrible negative; it is eternal destruction, it is separation from 'the presence of the Lord' [2Th 1:8-9]. Permanent inaccessibility to God, carrying into eternity the decision taken by a person in this life.

The biblical language about this ultimate separation from God is not intended as a description; instead the images like those of 'fire', 'darkness' and 'sulphur' are symbolic. They describe a reality beyond present experience. They are divinely inspired, but they don't tell us everything, however, they do not mislead us. We must have care when speaking about 'Hell'. It is more terrible than we can imagine, yet we must not use lurid descriptions to frighten people into responding to the gospel, but neither must we minimise the power of the warnings.

Annihilation or inferno

Whether the final destiny of someone in rebellion against God is 'eternal suffering' or 'eternal punishment' is a much debated subject. The traditional interpretation of the concept of 'Hell' is that it is a realm of unending punishment in the form of eternal suffering; the ceaseless conscious experience of torment and anguish. Augustine described it as :-

'A literal fire, people kept burning without being consumed,​

in pain without dying, by the miraculous power of God'.

This notion has of course been violently attacked down through the centuries, saying that it leaves God nothing more than a cosmic sadist. One can understand the emotional reaction to such a notion but what do the scriptures say. Discussion on this subject has always been a highly contentious issue, and we must say that any conclusions we may draw must be tentative. Let us make the following observations :-

• Use biblical language with care : the New Testament says very little about the actual nature of eternal punishment; it sees the heart of it as a breaking of relationship with God rather than lurid descriptions. Its burden is to turn people towards God while they have the chance to embrace salvation. The image of Gehenna, "The Valley of Hinnom' does not help too much [cf Mat 10:28; Mk 9:43-47] as it is simply the place of abomination; once used as a site for child sacrifice, in New Testament times it was the city rubbish pit The 'Rich man and Lazarus' story [Lk 16:19-31] needs treating carefully as it is almost certainly just using popular Jewish apocalyptic images, current in the talk of Jesus' hearers; not literal.

• The biblical basis is weak : The case for 'eternal suffering' rests primarily upon the belief in the 'immortality of the soul', which we have already seen is not biblical. It is reinforced with the statement in Revelation 20:10 which says the Devil, the beast and the false prophet are 'tormented day and night for ever and ever' [we shall make more specific comment upon this verse below].

• Language of finality : Careful examination of the scriptures that speak about God's final sentence upon those who oppose him reveal phrases like 'outer darkness' [Mat 25:30], 'eternal fire' [Mat 25:41], 'eternal punishment' [Mat 25:46], 'unquenchable fire' [Mk 9:43], 'eternal destruction' [2Th 1:9], 'eternal judgment' [Heb 6:2]. This catalogue of phrases emphasises the horrific quality and permanence of the punishment, rather than quantity and unending suffering. 'Eternal punishment' is an act of judgment the effects of which cannot be reversed. 'Eternal [unquenchable] fire' speaks of the nature of the fire and emphasises the impossibility of escape, rather than everlasting burning. It suggests the final destruction and annihilation of the individual consumed or enveloped by the unending flame or darkness. A fullstop rather than an unfinished sentence.

• Inescapable punishment : Reaction against annihilation usually suggests that the individual concerned somehow escapes the full deserts of their just punishment. We are not suggesting this at all. The error of most annihilationist teaching is that sinners pass into oblivion at death and that only the just are raised. This is clearly not biblical. Neither are we saying the total annihilation alone would be punishment enough, though God knows it could be. Our argument is that sinners will be raised to judgment. They will see the greatness of the glory to God. They will have no alternative but to acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Christ. They will have their every action and secret motive exposed for what it was. They will see all that the salvation which they rejected could have made possible for them, all their potential in God now gone for ever. They will face the full consuming wrath anguish, 'wailing and gnashing of teeth'. Only when sentence has been passed and the full and just punishment has been received will it be climaxed by the oblivion and annihilation of eternal destruction.

 

[Mikecpking]

Continued:

• Qualitative not quantitative : One has to ask what purpose eternal torment and unending suffering can achieve. If Jesus could receive the punishment for the sin of the whole world in the hours on the cross, is it not more likely that God's final punishment upon an individual's rebellion can be qualitative rather than quantitative?

• A difficult scripture : The only scripture that does seem to clearly suggest eternal suffering for unbelievers is in Revelation 14:10-11 :-

' ... tormented with fire and sulphur ...​

the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever,

and they have no rest day or night'.

However, this may not mean conscious eternal suffering; 'the smoke of their torment' may refer only to the means of their destruction, 'no rest day and night' may mean simply 'while it continues', but then oblivion. It is clear from Revelation 20:10 that Satan, the beast and the false prophet suffer eternal torment; but the nature of their rebellion is unique. Even here there are those who argue on the basis of Ezekiel 28:19 [Tyre being a picture of Satan] that even their end will be total destruction. This exegesis is also open to variety of opinion.

If eternal punishment does end in annihilation it will only be after the justice of God has been fully satisfied. If in fact it involves eternal suffering it will be seen to be embraced by the love of God; though it may at the moment be beyond our understanding. Whatever the result, the truth remains. 'It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God' [Heb 10:31]. What is certain is that God's judgment will be so awesome and so perfect that there will remain no basis upon which to accuse him of error or injustice of any kind. All who have ever lived will stand in bumbfounded silence, but not silenced, at God's incredible justice.

HEAVEN : ETERNAL SHALOM All things new

God's judgment will banish evil in all its forms. Satan and all the host of wickedness will be routed and destroyed: sin and all its effects, disease, pain, tears and sorrow. The created order will be delivered from the cycle of decay [cf Rev 20:7-10; 2Th 2:8; Rev 21:4; ICor 15:26; Rm 8:19-21; Isa.35]. What remains will be reality in its truest and wholly substantial form, that which cannot be shaken. Heaven is not situated in some place, a point within celestial geography; it is where God is, the world of God, there is no reason why this universe is merely three dimensional, heaven is made up of its own incalculable dimensions which intersect with our world. In one sense it is the world about which we do not yet know, though we ache to be part of it, yet in another sense distinctions between 'there' and 'now', at the best we 'see through a glass darkly' [ICor 13:12].

Wholly God centred

God will be the overwhelming reality [Rev 21:3]. It will be the reality to which all God's purposes have been eternally moving. It will be the final fruit of God's vindication and triumph. In the words of Augustine :-

"We shall rest and we shall see;​

we shall see and we shall love;

we shall love and we shall praise;

this is what will be at the end without end".

The awareness of the presence of God will be the supreme feature of heaven, it will mark all life, "we shall see his face" [Rev 22:4], 'we shall see him as he is' [Un 3:2]. Heaven will be the endless exploration of his unutterable beauty, God himself. The eternal dance of worship.

Fulfilment and continuity

It is not 'pure spirit'. The New Testament speaks not of 'heaven' but a 'new heaven and earth'. The form of this world as we know it is passing away [ICor 7:31; Mat 24:35] climaxing in the huge movement of energy [2Pt 3:12-13], yet the present creation waits in longing to share in the glorious liberty of the Sons of God [Rm 8:19-25]. Our life will be an embodied life with a clear continuity with what we know now, with all potential realised. 'Heaven will be a self-conscious embodied existence with new enhanced powers'.

Place of community

The Bible always speaks of heaven in social terms; a city, a kingdom, a temple, a wedding feast. We shall be together with all God's people. Heaven will hold undreamed of possibilities at the level of social relationships. This is why we have resurrection bodies: it is neither individualism nor absorption into world spirit; it will be corporate in the truest sense of the word.

Responsible activity

In Revelation 22:3 it says, "his servants shall worship him". Worship here means active service and work, and servanthood is unthinkable without responsibility. Jesus speaks of present responsibility having eternal implications [Lk 19:11-26], Paul speaks of us 'judging angels' [ICor 6:2-3]. These ideas of 'boredom' in heaven reveal the blindness of even the people of God to the vastness of God's purposes.

Eternal life

There are no words to convey even a fraction of what the life of heaven will be like. We will attain our destiny; perfect relationship with God, with others and with nature. We will be perfectly free, fully glorify God, reach the highest peaks of moral and spiritual grandeur. Time will be meaningless. Our present salvation will roll into the mists of eternity, and as it does it will gather to itself worlds, kingdoms and dimensions as yet unborn. There are no limits to the heights we are destined to tread in the ages ahead.

Having said all this we still miss the central significance of everything. That is the meaning which everything has for God himself. God's joy will be much greater than ours. It will be the fulfilment of his heart. We will be united with him. He will be vindicated fully. He will be 'all in all'. We shall worship him, and he will rejoice in us.

We can sense just something of what the wonder of this eternal life will be, when we begin to realise; in the face of all the unspeakable pain, evil and anguish throughout history, the primary arguement against believing in a God who is good, everything God has done will be aclaimed as perfect and his eternal plan as flawless. To think like this appears incomprehensible to us at this moment, but in that day it will be so. That is something of what is meant by the words about Jesus :-

'... for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,​

scorning its shame,

and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God' [Heb 12:2]


Comments?

 

[Martinez]

Hi,
Care to read the next paragraphs? Sheol and Hades in OT and NT respectively should be translated "Grave", but the heading "Hell" in this context is talking about the consequences of not ending up in eternal Shalom.
Like the notes state, one must use care when comparing "the grave" with a place of "destruction".

Hi there Mikepking!

actually, I wasn't really having a go at that seperation from God thing as such.
although I know it did look that way.

I was trying to make a point about people who continue to make arguments for the exsistence of Hell by refering to part of a verse just because it has the word Hell in it.
seeing as the word is not even supposed to even be in there at all.

There are four words incorrectly translated as Hell, all of which do not talk about everlasting torcher.

My point I was making in the above parable is that,
some people find it very hard to think for themselves and apply God given logic to the situation.
case in point,

saying that the word of God is infallible and falliure to agree with it is heresy.
I will point out at this point that I am not a liberal christian.
I am a follower of Christ.
anyways, the word of God is infallible, but the ability of man to translate from one language to another, and interperate that that is supposed to be read with the eyes of the spirit certainly are.
and at worse mans ability to be influenced by satan to change God into His own image is not to far fetched, wouldn't you agree?
after all, satan has a bit of a track record of deceiving and man has track record of being decieved!

The thing that bugs me the most is this.

If the bible is the infallible word of the living God, as I believe it is,
and certain parts contradict each other, applied to guide lines set down in said book,
then something is a miss!

If something is a miss, then there must be something wrong somewhere!
logical?
now if the scriptures are examined and there are two conflicting views,
then one needs to call on the power of His logical mind.
If one group of verses seem to suport one veiw, and the other seem to support the other, the what alterative do we have but to search them both and determine what is the most sensible as viewed in the light of the rest of the scriptures.

if searched with a open heart and a logical mind, the scriptures reveal that,
certain aspects of God's charicter are not up held by certain verses,
for exaple.

psalm 104-9
He will not always chide or be contending, neither will He keep His anger forever or keep a grudge. (ampilfied)

and,

psalm 30-5
For is anger is but for a moment, but his favour is for a life time orHis favour is Life.
weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning.

and there are many more like that.

I'm sure your very familiar with the ones that talk about roasting people alive forever and ever, if not ask Dan, He knows them well.
We are also aware that Jesus hates Hypocricy, as He mentions that a few times aswell.

so if we examine these three examples, we can make the following conclusion.
the scrptures that talk of The lord not being angry forever,
clash with the ones that say that He is angry forever.
but since we know that God is not a Hypocryte, or some kind of schitzo, then we can assume one of these is in error!

It is then up to us to scour the scriptures for the bigger picture, and determine what makes sense and what doesn't.
that is why we must use logic and not just take isolated peices of scripture,
or we will fall prey to doctinal and translation errors.

that is why we simply cannot form doctrines based on small peices of the bible,
especialy when those parts have been proven to been mistranslated.

 

[AndreLinoge]

Salvation is by grace through faith. Calvinists and universalists -- in different ways -- do tend to misunderstand the meaning of "faith" as loyalty to God. How do we know whether one loves God? Whether he does what Jesus said to do.

So faith is a "decision" that man makes? Paul went out of his way to condemn the flesh, human self-will, but "free-willers" insist that man's salvation depends on making a right "choice"; a choice that comes from the flesh.

Read Romans chapter nine. It leaves NO room for "free-will' or "choice".

 

[Charlie V]

Since Mike's copy/paste appears in multiple threads, and it contains false witness against universalists, I'm obviously going to have to copy/paste my reply from another thread to rebut his claims.

The false witness is a straw man of the universalist position.

The straw man is, in fact, so far from the true universalist belief, it is really false witness against your neighbor to repeat it.


The straw man is this:

(Regarding universalism, he says)

​

• it teaches that the New Testament language about judgment and condemnation is 'mythical', calculated to provoke people into a response to God; final destruction is 'hypothetical' not literal

Few Christian universalists would ever make the claims you are attributing to them. I've never heard a Christian universalist claim that judgment or condemnation are "mythical." They are very real, and Christian universalists recognize that. This claim that universalists call it "mythical" is false testimony -- it's truly bearing false witness to make such a claim, when, in reality, universalists make no such claim.

Judgment and condemnation are real. The purpose of the judgment, however, is not retributive punishment, and the form of condemnation is neither an eternal fire nor an eternal shame or seperation (which is impossible, really, if God is omnipresent), but purification, and the suffering does not last for all eternity, but for an age.

Regarding God's omnipresence, the idea of "eternal seperation" is absurdly contradictory to this passage:

Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?
If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. Psalms 139:7-8


For discussions on "the age," I suggest you read:

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion.html

There are several more books I can suggest, but that is a good start.

But suggestions contrary to Christ as the savior of all mankind paints one of two pictures:

1. A weak God who wants to save all man, to purify them, to remove their sin from them and guide them to truth, but is incapable of doing so.

or, alternately


2. A powerful but vengeful God who truly does not want to save all men, but glories in man's torment.

Obviously, the latter is not your view, since you believe that God does, in fact, want to save everyone. While you'd probably disagree with the description in the former, I cannot see how God can be called omnipotent if He has a will that He cannot find the means to fulfill.

Universal salvation is the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Before continuing, I suggest you read through all the links in the following page:

http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html

Also, consider the words of the scriptures:

http://www.tentmaker.org/lists/ReconciliationScriptures.html

Mt 18:12,14 What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? Thus it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

Lk 2:10 And the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy which shall be for all the people."

Lk 15:4-7 What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it? And when [Ed., not if] he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing... I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Lk 23:34 Jesus said, "Father forgive them; they know not what they do."

[Ed., This incredible request by Jesus, together with His suffering and death on the cross for the sins of the world, becomes the ultimate picture and the eternal symbol of the heart and intention of God toward lost humanity. Furthermore, this declaration of God's ultimate redemptive purposes was made, eternally speaking, from the beginning of time, by "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world"! (Rev 13:8)]​

Jn 1:29 The next day he [John the Baptist] saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

[Ed., "the sin" is in the singular, indicating the complete removal of the "sin principle", or sin itself with all of its consequences, not just the individual acts of sin.]​

Jn 3:17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through Him.

Jn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.

[Ed., This is as clear a statement on the subject as any in scripture, a promise made by Christ Himself!]​

Acts 3;20-21 And that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the times of the restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Rom 5:18-20 So then as through one transgression [Adam's] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's] there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One, the many will be made righteous. And the Law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more!

[Ed., As J.B. Phillips so succinctly puts it, "Grace is the ruling factor!"]​

Rom 8:19-21 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it in hope, that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Rom 11:15 For if their rejection [i.e., the Jew's rejection of Christ] be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; and thus all Israel will be saved.

Rom 11:32,33 For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all. Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

Rom 11;36 For from Him [Christ] and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Rom 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:11 For as it is written, "As I live", says the Lord, "every knee shall bow to me [ie. repentance], and every tongue shall give praise to God". [ie. worship]

I Cor 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.

I Cor 5:4,5 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [See I Peter 4:6!]

I Cor 13:8 Love never fails.

[Ed., It bears repeating: "Love never fails!" God is love. His love can not fail! To lose even one would mean that love failed to find and save that one. To lose millions for eternity, as some believe, would mean that love failed miserably and completely! However, His plan, His purpose, His desire, and His nature has always been and always will be love for His creation!]​

continued

 

[Charlie V]

I Cor 15:22,28 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order... [Ed., This phrase is the real key to understanding God's purposes in relation to His time schedule.] "And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all."

[Ed., Paul sees clearly to the end, and makes this ultimate and most concise declaration of the eternal purposes of God!] ​

I Cor 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."

[Ed., "The last enemy to be destroyed is death" (I Cor 15:26)...This refers to all death, both physical death and spiritual death. Then the only thing that shall remain is...Life!]​

II Cor 5:14,15 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

II Cor 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was [Ed., and is] in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.


Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."

[Ed., According to Paul, then, preaching the reconciliation of all is in fact preaching the gospel.] ​

Eph 1:9,10 He make known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth.

Eph 1:22,23 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all.

Eph 3:8-11 To me [Paul]...this grace was given...to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things; in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph 4:5,6 There is...one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.


Phil 2:9-11 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[Ed., Remember that "No one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit." I Cor 12:3] ​

Phil 3;21 ...who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.


Col 1:19-22 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.

[Ed., How could Paul state it any more clearly!] ​

Col 3:11 Christ is all, and in all.

[Ed., All creation is birthed in Christ; all creation remains in Christ; but not all of creation has been awakened to Christ ("Awake, sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will give thee light." Eph 5:14)]​

I Tim 1:13 Even though I [Paul] was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor, yet I was shown mercy, because I acted ignorantly in unbelief.

[Ed., If the prerequisite for mercy is ignorance and unbelief, then who will fail to qualify?]​

I Tim 1:15 Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I [Paul] am foremost.

[Ed., Again, if Paul is the foremost sinner, then hasn't God's plan of redemption been accomplished to the foremost?]​

I Tim 2:5,6 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to be borne at the proper time.

[Ed., An alternate translation reads: "to be testified (lit."witnessed") in due times..."(ie. "each in his own order"...I Cor 15:22)] ​

I Tim 4:10 It is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

[Ed., Only believers are privileged with an opportunity to escape the coming wrath and experience the fruits of the Spirit and the blessings of the kingdom in this life, as well as in the coming ages.] ​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

Heb 1:2 In these last days He has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Heb 2:8 For in subjecting all things to him [ie., man], He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him...But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for every one.

Heb 9:26 But now once at the consummation He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

[Ed., Though not yet evident, sin will finally be completely put away, and all creation, which is waiting anxiously for its redemption (Rom 8:19), will be set free!] ​

I Pet 2:12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may on account of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

I Pet 3:18-20 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah...

I Pet 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that even though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. (see I Cor 5:5)

[Ed., Peter is still referring to the souls in prison from the days of Noah, whom Christ preached to, presumably following His crucifixion and descension into the "lower parts of the earth", in which He "lead captive a host of captives..." (Ephes 4:8,9). This is a remarkable revelation given to Peter concerning the purpose of God's judgements on mankind in order to bring about his future plans for them to live in the Spirit!] ​

II Pet 3:8,9 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing [literally "not purposing", from the Greek: boulema, "predetermined purpose"] that any should perish but for all to come to repentance.

[Ed., His promise is still the original promise given to Abraham, that ..."in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."] ​

I John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation [ie., satisfaction or appeasement] for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

I John 4:14 And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

Rev 15:3,4 And they sang the song of Moses... and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Thy ways, Thou King of the Nations. Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou alone art holy; For all the nations will come and worship before Thee, for Thy righteous acts have been revealed."

[Ed., Thus the original promise given to Abraham in Genesis is once again reiterated in the revelation to John. This is the "great mystery" spoken of by Paul concerning God's eternal, redemptive purpose to reconcile all creation back to Himself. (Eph 1:10; Col 1:20,26) Christ Jesus will finally see the work of His travail come to its full fruition; God's unfathomable love and mercy will be fully displayed to all of creation; and indeed, "at the fulness of times"..."God will be all in all!"​

Best wishes to all, and have a great holiday!

Charlie

 

[Scholar in training]

I don't think we can get past the view that sanctification, justification, and salvation is a process. C.S. Lewis, Barth, and more recently McLaren (just referencing those that I have read) all viewed it as such.

I don't deny that salvation is a process (even though I would not put it in those words specifically). But it does not follow from that idea that all people will receive salvation.

We will be judged and through judgment sanctified and reconciled.

Do most universalists believe that through judgment we are sanctified and reconciled, a type of Purgatory for the unrighteous?

Well you know the forgives 70 times 7 passage which means that God's forgiveness is limitless.

To people who want to be forgiven, and honor God for doing so. Rejecting a patron's gift in spite of that patron's unmerited favor (God's grace, in this context) is the height of dishonor.

I really think that it is grace alone even though we should do good works because that is what we should want to do.

The words used are important: by grace, through faith.

 

[Martinez]

Actually its a very simple concept once you understand it,

those who are "saved" receive a better resurrection, which happens first.
these are the ones that took part in Christs death on the cross, and have crucified the old man.

those who are not "saved" must take part in the second death and the lake of fire, to kill the old man and be purified.

the saved are the new priest hood, and the ones who participate in the second death or the lake of fire are they who the priest hood minister to.

 

[Martinez]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Subliminal Messages are Powerful,
Especially Religious Ones[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
By Charles Slagle[/font]
​

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]That is what organizations and people count on when they advertise their products, isn't it? God advertises what will impart life and hope. The spirit of antichrist advertises what fosters death and despair. However, all advertisements pack subliminal messages designed to unconsciously affect those who receive them. So let's look at the subliminal messages of--[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]ARMINIANISM'S ADVERTISEMENT: You shall love the Lord with the unconditional commitment of all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength--while also remembering--that His commitment to you is conditional on your performance in this lifetime. The subliminal message, therefore, is that you must love God more (with greater commitment) than He loves you.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]CALVINISM'S ADVERTISEMENT: You shall love your neighbor (both friend and foe) as yourself--while also remembering--that Unfailing *Holy* Love has "foreordained" from eternity past to consign most of His little neighbors to never-ending fiery torture. The subliminal message, therefore, is that you are to love your neighbors more than God (your Heavenly Father and Role Model) loves them.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]UNIVERSALISM'S ADVERTISEMENT: You shall love the Lord with your total being and your neighbor as yourself--while also remembering--that this is not merely a command; it is also a promise. He is committed to love ALL His little neighbors as Himself, so your Heavenly Father and Role Model will hang in there with them until all of them loves as He loves and are holy and happy. The subliminal message, therefore, is that sin MUST
perish, so it is futile to continue therein, and that Love Himself NEVER fails, so we can always count on Him even when we cannot count on ourselves.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Which of the above subliminal messages do you think provides the most motivation to turn from sin and to love God and others wholeheartedly? Which one glorifies God more? Which one promotes greater faith and trust in God?[/font]

 

[Mailman Dan]

I hate cut and paste post, even if they happen to be something I agree with. Too long, and no heart, plus I don't believe everything I read on the net.

"Everyone will enter into heaven, and all will be just peachy keen."
2 Romans 3:21

that is why we simply cannot form doctrines based on small peices of the bible, especialy when those parts have been proven to been mistranslated.

The arguement that i've made from the beginning is that one can not be a Universalist and believe the bible is 100% true. So if parts of it are in error, by the hand of man, do you believe that God didn't have the power to alter it and make corrections to remove the verses you don't agree with? How do you know "other parts" you agree with are not in error?

the saved are the new priest hood, and the ones who participate in the second death or the lake of fire are they who the priest hood minister to.

Do you have any scripture to back this statement?


Dan~~~>loooking for the orgin of that doctrine

 

[stumpjumper]

I don't deny that salvation is a process (even though I would not put it in those words specifically). But it does not follow from that idea that all people will receive salvation.

Well I think that we have to make the distinction between universalism as a hope (and not an empty hope) and universalism as a definitive doctrine. I do not believe that it is definitively revealed or determined that all will be saved and neither Nuehaus or Balthasar stated so either.

Do most universalists believe that through judgment we are sanctified and reconciled, a type of Purgatory for the unrighteous?

Origen certainly did. Barth (who I would not neccesarily call a universalist) also believed that through judgment we were reconciled but he attributed that to all who were reconciled.

To people who want to be forgiven, and honor God for doing so. Rejecting a patron's gift in spite of that patron's unmerited favor (God's grace, in this context) is the height of dishonor.

True. To be forgiven you have to accept the forgiveness. Nuehaus and Balthasar's view would be that God will pretty much make an offer that we cannot refuse (Godfather style )

The words used are important: by grace, through faith.

Ah yes. But how do we come to faith?

 

[Scholar in training]

Well I think that we have to make the distinction between universalism as a hope (and not an empty hope) and universalism as a definitive doctrine. I do not believe that it is definitively revealed or determined that all will be saved and neither Nuehaus or Balthasar stated so either.

Ok. So you believe that the future is undetermined in regards to some persons' salvation?

True. To be forgiven you have to accept the forgiveness. Nuehaus and Balthasar's view would be that God will pretty much make an offer that we cannot refuse (Godfather style )

If we cannot refuse (whether we are "compelled" by God to come to him or not), then free will has been restrained. We should certainly not say that God's will has been restrained; but we cannot say that ours has either.

Ah yes. But how do we come to faith?

Freedom of the will has not been destroyed because of original sin, and it remains unimpaired only under the grace of God. At the same time, under that grace, we can make the conscious decision to refuse (for instance) to repent.

 

[stumpjumper]

Ok. So you believe that the future is undetermined in regards to some persons' salvation?

Yes that would be an honest assessment of my beliefs. However, I certainly don't think that we can say that anyone is neccesarily in hell either.

If we cannot refuse (whether we are "compelled" by God to come to him or not), then free will has been restrained. We should certainly not say that God's will has been restrained; but we cannot say that ours has either.

Well we always tread a fine line with free will and salvation anyway. A Universalist and a Calvinist would be in the same boat.

I think Balthasar had the best view of how free will came into play and how that related to the cross. The greater the sin the greater the grace and the more powerful that grace will be to the sinner at that last moment.

Freedom of the will has not been destroyed because of original sin, and it remains unimpaired only under the grace of God. At the same time, under that grace, we can make the conscious decision to refuse (for instance) to repent.

I agree. But assuming that we believe in unlimited atonement and that salvation is open to all, what would be the cause of someone staying in their sin?

Who would reject that salvation freely given to someone from the One powerful enough to pull them out of their sin? Is anyone that blinded by evil?

 

[Scholar in training]

Yes that would be an honest assessment of my beliefs. However, I certainly don't think that we can say that anyone is neccesarily in hell either.

I think that we can safely say that certain people are in hell, but we should be careful when speculating on pronouncements about a person's eternal status before God. Still, Joseph Stalin among others come to mind.

I think Balthasar had the best view of how free will came into play and how that related to the cross. The greater the sin the greater the grace and the more powerful that grace will be to the sinner at that last moment.

Possibly. I believe that certain individuals may receive more grace than others out of necessity, maybe because God forsees that they will need it to repent; this idea gives God full sovereignty in the dispensation of grace and full authority in the eternal state of the human soul, but does not go so far as to accept "double predestination", nor does it limit mankind's capacity for free will under grace.

I agree. But assuming that we believe in unlimited atonement and that salvation is open to all, what would be the cause of someone staying in their sin?

That is one question I do not have the answer to.

But I do offer this: salvation is open to all, and we are unimpaired to choose God's will under Divine grace, but someone like Judas can still choose to betray God, and refuse to come back afterwards.