Universalism VS. Scripture

[Mailman Dan]

Stumpjumper~ I thought Dan never discounts scripture.

I don't...

But do you remember how you kept saying *I* took things out of context when I posted numerous scripture that run all through the bible that contained descriptions of hell?


Look at the context here....

One, Paul is writting to believers, and as such, look at the text as it was written to those believers.

(clips)

we be sober

because we thus judge

we have known Christ after the flesh

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature
(NOT every man)

who hath reconciled us to himself

we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God

All of this scripture is correct, as Paul is writting and speaking about believers in Christ, not on those who were not saved. Through Christ, "we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

It is not easy to draw that those without Christ are also saved.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

I do agree with you in part, that salvation is a process. It's a process that requires one to "Repent" and place their faith in Christ as payment of sin. That is the salvation process. Without it, scripture is clear on the punishment for those found in their sin. (see formentioned 300 verses i've posted)



Dan~~~>saved you the torment or repeating himself with scripture

 

[stumpjumper]

I don't...

But do you remember how you kept saying *I* took things out of context when I posted numerous scripture that run all through the bible that contained descriptions of hell?

Well for one thing if we are to have a beneficial conversation we should start with one passage at a time. You tend to post 6 proof-text's at a clip and that is far from an edifying way to approach scripture.

Look at the context here....

One, Paul is writting to believers, and as such, look at the text as it was written to those believers.


Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature
(NOT every man)

Right. It is a process. Not every man is in Christ right now. That passage (2 Corint 5) is explaining the message of reconciliation and as we know in our own lives reconciling with others is a process and it takes time.

It is not some mantra such as: "Profess Jesus Christ and you are saved"

It is a process.

who hath reconciled us to himself

we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God

All of this scripture is correct, as Paul is writting and speaking about believers in Christ, not on those who were not saved. Through Christ, "we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

It is not easy to draw that those without Christ are also saved.

In fact, it is easy to show that those who are not currently party to God's reconciliation will be in the future. What part of: "God has reconciled the world unto Himself" do you not agree with?

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

I do agree with you in part, that salvation is a process. It's a process that requires one to "Repent" and place their faith in Christ as payment of sin. That is the salvation process. Without it, scripture is clear on the punishment for those found in their sin. (see formentioned 300 verses i've posted)

Born again means being transformed into a "new creation" as Paul mentioned in that Corinthian's passage. Yes, we need to turn from sin and be converted by Christ but I don't think that we really have much choice in the process. We cannot see the Kingdom of God unless we be born again but that is because by being born into Christ, who is the alpha and omega, we will understand our ontological origin and eventual goal.

Why do you think that it was stated that the punishment of sin is death?

(BTW, think about that above question please.)

 

[Hello There]

anybody feel like debating odsolo in the unorthodox theology section?

 

[mark53]

All I asked you to do was post scripture for your doctrine and try to prove why the bible is wrong. (in the scripture I posted)

I guess, at least, your starting to see your doctrine doesn't exist..

Dan~~~>thinks you have proven the point well
.

As a Liberal who believes (like many here) that the bible is not all of God's word but only a part of it and that man wrote the bible trying to understand who this God is and is written from that point of view it is a bit ludicrous to argue something from a point of view I don't accept.
To turn it aroind the other way why don't you argue your point of view from our way!

 

[Mailman Dan]

Well for one thing if we are to have a beneficial conversation we should start with one passage at a time. You tend to post 6 proof-text's at a clip and that is far from an edifying way to approach scripture.

I've posted hundreds of verses i've not got an answer too, simply because the scripture that supports the existance of hell is excessive. My point was not to prove the existance of hell as the bible says, but to show one can not believe the bible is without error, and still be a universalist.

Case in point, 2 very clear ones..

Revelation 14:10,11...the eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."

or

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

If you want to disprove the doctrine, you'll have to prove these verses are wrong, before moving out to the others. When over 5,000 reads on this site, it hasn't been done yet. (although cut and paste arguements from tentmaker, which still didn't disprove the scripture)

What part of: "God has reconciled the world unto Himself" do you not agree with?

Again, its how you read it thats going to depend on your view. Paul was writting to believers, which were coming coming out of the world to Christ. They were "the world" from Pauls point of view.

Jesus also seperated believers from "the world."

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,

John 7:7
The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil.

John 14:17
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

and

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Many times the bible seperates the "World" from those who believe. They are two different things. However, the entire "world" was offered the same thing...


Salvaton of judgement, still depends on ones dependence on Christ.

Why do you think that it was stated that the punishment of sin is death?

Because God decleared the death penality on the entire world, saying the soul that sins will die.

There is an eternal spirtual death, that scripture speaks of, and a worldly death, two very different things. Death, after judgement day, is the secnond death that scripture speaks clearly about...



Dan~~~>glad a few people can have a conversation without all the name calling..

 

[stumpjumper]

I've posted hundreds of verses i've not got an answer too, simply because the scripture that supports the existance of hell is excessive. My point was not to prove the existance of hell as the bible says, but to show one can not believe the bible is without error, and still be a universalist.

Dan do you realize that the word "hell" as we commonly understand it does not appear in scripture? "Hell" is translated from four different words: Gehanna, Sheol, Hades, and Tartarus. In most instances the words were used in a vastly different way depending upon the context. Sheol is simply the place of the dead (Psalm 139), Gehanna is a valley outside of Jerusalem, Hades is the Greek term for the place of the dead, and Tartarus was a mythological prison in Hades used as a literary device to describe those in waiting for judgement: Case in point the following passage:

The First Epistle General of Peter, Chapter 3, Verses 18-20
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

According to Peter in this passage, Jesus was preaching to spirits in prison. The same word translated at "prison" here is translated as hell elsewhere.

Is Jesus in hell preaching right now?

The Bible is not in error it is just that some of our understanding of the Bible has changed over time and it has gone further from the original view of Christianity.

Did you know that pre-millenial dispensationalism is an 18th century invention by John Nelson Darby? Was Christian theology in error the first 1700 years of its existence or is this modern view of literally reading every word that was written in different languages originally and was translated from words that have no modern equivalence way off the mark?

Case in point, 2 very clear ones..

Revelation 14:10,11...the eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."

or

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

If you want to disprove the doctrine, you'll have to prove these verses are wrong, before moving out to the others. When over 5,000 reads on this site, it hasn't been done yet. (although cut and paste arguements from tentmaker, which still didn't disprove the scripture)

No. I do not believe scripture is wrong. I believe literal readings of Jewish apocalyptic texts, which are by definition metaphorical, are wrong. Scripture is not wrong it is those who take an apocalyptic text as a prediction of future actions that are misreading the scripture.

You did not answer my previous question nor have you answered why Paul made a deliniation between the believers and all men in 1 Tim 4:10.

Why did paul say that Jesus Christ is the savior of all men, especially the believers if you do not believe that to be true?

Why did Peter say that Jesus died for the just and the unjust in the above passage that I quoted?

Again, its how you read it thats going to depend on your view. Paul was writting to believers, which were coming coming out of the world to Christ. They were "the world" from Pauls point of view.

Jesus also seperated believers from "the world."

John 7:7
The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil.

If the believers are the world, why does Jesus say that world cannot hate them?

Is Jesus saying that the world cannot hate the world?

Comeon Dan. Your above statement is completely contradictory.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Many times the bible seperates the "World" from those who believe. They are two different things. However, the entire "world" was offered the same thing...

No Dan this simply means that God so loved the whole world. Those who have already accepted God's salvation are new creations and have left the world and are part of the new creation in Christ. Reread 2 Corinthians 5 which I posted last page. Those that are still part of the world are loved by God and will in the future become part of the new creation in Christ.

For God did not send Jesus into the world to condemn the world but so that through him the world might be saved.

The world will be saved and this is how Paul viewed that as well.

Salvaton of judgement, still depends on ones dependence on Christ.

Because God decleared the death penality on the entire world, saying the soul that sins will die.

There is an eternal spirtual death, that scripture speaks of, and a worldly death, two very different things. Death, after judgement day, is the secnond death that scripture speaks clearly about...

Think about this Dan. We all die to our sinful nature and that is because we will be new creations in Christ. The penalty of sin is death because sin cannot live in God's presence.

This is how Jesus is the mediator between God and man. We have died in Adam (sinful man) to rise in Christ (the second Adam and every one of our eschatological goal).

What we do in this life matters and we are called to have faith, hope and love as Christians. Grace is not contingent upon anything we may do but we need to respond to grace with hope, love, and faith and God will not let our obstinance block His goal. For some the process has not yet begun and they will experience a different initial encounter with God than others but reconciliation is a process and we will all experience that process.

Read John 3 again and that whole 2 Corinthians passage on reconciliation and you will see that Paul understood it as a process and one in which Christians are called to be ambassadors.

Dan~~~>glad a few people can have a conversation without all the name calling..

Yes. Sometimes we need to realize that we just do not see eye to eye on everything but if you are serious about understanding a doctrine of universal reconciliation you should pick up a good book about it.

 

[Mikecpking]

here something I have from my study notes..

Universalism and judgment

'Universalism' is the view that in the end every man and woman will in fact be saved. There is no doubt that Universalism ought to strike a chord in the heart of every Christian; it is quite clear that God's heart is universalist [cf 2Pt 3:9]. Support for the idea of 'universalism' is found among many Christians, and for a variety of reasons :-

• it attempts to resolve the problem of the large numbers of people who hear the gospel and reject it, or who have never heard the gospel and clearly don't live by their conscience

• it proclaims that it is essential for the love of God to gain final victory, for people to go to destruction would be a frustration of God's love

• it argues that death is an arbitrary point at which to conclude the human chance to respond to God's love, surely should be a chance beyond; this has led some to suggest ideas very similar to the old concept of purgatory where a person is held until finally won by the love of God

• it teaches that the New Testament language about judgment and condemnation is 'mythical', calculated to provoke people into a response to God; final destruction is 'hypothetical' not literal

Universalism takes a number of scriptures which it believes implies its ideas and then builds its theology from there, [cf Rm 5:12:21; 2Cor 5:19; Eph 1:10; Col.l:20; Phil 2:10; ITim 2:4; 4:10;Rmll:32;Jnl2:32].

In spite of the powerful arguments of the universalist, and however strong our desire that they be true, it does not seem to match the whole witness of scripture. It is a clear fact that God longs that, if possible, everyone might be saved, but the teaching of universalism appears, none the less, to be a distortion of biblical truth :-

• scripture seems clear that the distinction between believer and unbeliever which exists in this life will continue into eternity [cf Jn 3:36; ICor 6:10].

• we are not in any position to make final judgments about people who have died, God is the final judge; only he will decide, what he decides will be just, he is our safeguard.

• while universalism places great stress on the sovereignty of God's love to achieve its purpose, it misunderstands the nature of divine love. For someone to reject the love of God is a terrible tragedy, but it does not frustrate or limit the love expressed. It is not defeat but a miracle that God can create something that actually has the ability to resist its creator. Salvation has universal scope even if some refuse to embrace it

• death appears to be the human deciding point according to scripture, whether or not one feels that it is arbitrary. We live in a real world where real choices have to be made. It is here that destinies are fixed [cf. Lk 16:19-31 - the story of 'the rich man and Lazarus']. This freedom is essential to human dignity.

• if scriptures about final judgment and condemnation are simply 'mythical' then they are in fact nothing more than empty statements. Jesus' clear warnings about the judgment to come have a very definite force to them, only the foolish will ignore them.

The biblical texts that appear to support universalism need to be viewed very carefully. The fact that ultimately everyone will have to acknowledge Jesus as Lord does not mean that they will do it in faith and obedience [cf Rev 1:7]. The gospel is universal in its appeal, salvation for all who will believe in Christ. Paul does not appear to have been a universalist.

Where someone has refused to respond to God's love they are locked into the consequences of their sin. God has done everything he can, the invitation is there, he can do nothing more. The

vast embrace of salvation will be greater than we can imagine, but clearly there will be some who will not respond. God does not want to condemn; it is not the purpose of light to cast shadows, but it is the inevitable result if one stands in the way of the light.

HELL : ETERNAL SEPARATION Solemn reality

Bible teaching on the subject of judgment is clear and awesome in its seriousness. Those who remain unrepentant when confronted with God's claims, who reject his will even when it is made known to them, who continue to live in rebellion; these face a fearful destiny. The most common word in English for the fate of these who have passed under God's final judgment and stand guilty is 'Hell'.

Hell is a reality of unspeakable solemnity. It is not a place, it is a dimension. It is a 'nothing realm', a terrible negative; it is eternal destruction, it is separation from 'the presence of the Lord' [2Th 1:8-9]. Permanent inaccessibility to God, carrying into eternity the decision taken by a person in this life.

The biblical language about this ultimate separation from God is not intended as a description; instead the images like those of 'fire', 'darkness' and 'sulphur' are symbolic. They describe a reality beyond present experience. They are divinely inspired, but they don't tell us everything, however, they do not mislead us. We must have care when speaking about 'Hell'. It is more terrible than we can imagine, yet we must not use lurid descriptions to frighten people into responding to the gospel, but neither must we minimise the power of the warnings.

Annihilation or inferno

Whether the final destiny of someone in rebellion against God is 'eternal suffering' or 'eternal punishment' is a much debated subject. The traditional interpretation of the concept of 'Hell' is that it is a realm of unending punishment in the form of eternal suffering; the ceaseless conscious experience of torment and anguish. Augustine described it as :-

'A literal fire, people kept burning without being consumed,​

in pain without dying, by the miraculous power of God'.

This notion has of course been violently attacked down through the centuries, saying that it leaves God nothing more than a cosmic sadist. One can understand the emotional reaction to such a notion but what do the scriptures say. Discussion on this subject has always been a highly contentious issue, and we must say that any conclusions we may draw must be tentative. Let us make the following observations :-

• Use biblical language with care : the New Testament says very little about the actual nature of eternal punishment; it sees the heart of it as a breaking of relationship with God rather than lurid descriptions. Its burden is to turn people towards God while they have the chance to embrace salvation. The image of Gehenna, "The Valley of Hinnom' does not help too much [cf Mat 10:28; Mk 9:43-47] as it is simply the place of abomination; once used as a site for child sacrifice, in New Testament times it was the city rubbish pit The 'Rich man and Lazarus' story [Lk 16:19-31] needs treating carefully as it is almost certainly just using popular Jewish apocalyptic images, current in the talk of Jesus' hearers; not literal.

• The biblical basis is weak : The case for 'eternal suffering' rests primarily upon the belief in the 'immortality of the soul', which we have already seen is not biblical. It is reinforced with the statement in Revelation 20:10 which says the Devil, the beast and the false prophet are 'tormented day and night for ever and ever' [we shall make more specific comment upon this verse below].

• Language of finality : Careful examination of the scriptures that speak about God's final sentence upon those who oppose him reveal phrases like 'outer darkness' [Mat 25:30], 'eternal fire' [Mat 25:41], 'eternal punishment' [Mat 25:46], 'unquenchable fire' [Mk 9:43], 'eternal destruction' [2Th 1:9], 'eternal judgment' [Heb 6:2]. This catalogue of phrases emphasises the horrific quality and permanence of the punishment, rather than quantity and unending suffering. 'Eternal punishment' is an act of judgment the effects of which cannot be reversed. 'Eternal [unquenchable] fire' speaks of the nature of the fire and emphasises the impossibility of escape, rather than everlasting burning. It suggests the final destruction and annihilation of the individual consumed or enveloped by the unending flame or darkness. A fullstop rather than an unfinished sentence.

• Inescapable punishment : Reaction against annihilation usually suggests that the individual concerned somehow escapes the full deserts of their just punishment. We are not suggesting this at all. The error of most annihilationist teaching is that sinners pass into oblivion at death and that only the just are raised. This is clearly not biblical. Neither are we saying the total annihilation alone would be punishment enough, though God knows it could be. Our argument is that sinners will be raised to judgment. They will see the greatness of the glory to God. They will have no alternative but to acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Christ. They will have their every action and secret motive exposed for what it was. They will see all that the salvation which they rejected could have made possible for them, all their potential in God now gone for ever. They will face the full consuming wrath anguish, 'wailing and gnashing of teeth'. Only when sentence has been passed and the full and just punishment has been received will it be climaxed by the oblivion and annihilation of eternal destruction.

• Qualitative not quantitative : One has to ask what purpose eternal torment and unending suffering can achieve. If Jesus could receive the punishment for the sin of the whole world in the hours on the cross, is it not more likely that God's final punishment upon an individual's rebellion can be qualitative rather than quantitative?

• A difficult scripture : The only scripture that does seem to clearly suggest eternal suffering for unbelievers is in Revelation 14:10-11 :-

' ... tormented with fire and sulphur ...​

the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever,

and they have no rest day or night'.

However, this may not mean conscious eternal suffering; 'the smoke of their torment' may refer only to the means of their destruction, 'no rest day and night' may mean simply 'while it continues', but then oblivion. It is clear from Revelation 20:10 that Satan, the beast and the false prophet suffer eternal torment; but the nature of their rebellion is unique. Even here there are those who argue on the basis of Ezekiel 28:19 [Tyre being a picture of Satan] that even their end will be total destruction. This exegesis is also open to variety of opinion.

 

[Mikecpking]

Continued:

If eternal punishment does end in annihilation it will only be after the justice of God has been fully satisfied. If in fact it involves eternal suffering it will be seen to be embraced by the love of God; though it may at the moment be beyond our understanding. Whatever the result, the truth remains. 'It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God' [Heb 10:31]. What is certain is that God's judgment will be so awesome and so perfect that there will remain no basis upon which to accuse him of error or injustice of any kind. All who have ever lived will stand in bumbfounded silence, but not silenced, at God's incredible justice.

HEAVEN : ETERNAL SHALOM All things new

God's judgment will banish evil in all its forms. Satan and all the host of wickedness will be routed and destroyed: sin and all its effects, disease, pain, tears and sorrow. The created order will be delivered from the cycle of decay [cf Rev 20:7-10; 2Th 2:8; Rev 21:4; ICor 15:26; Rm 8:19-21; Isa.35]. What remains will be reality in its truest and wholly substantial form, that which cannot be shaken. Heaven is not situated in some place, a point within celestial geography; it is where God is, the world of God, there is no reason why this universe is merely three dimensional, heaven is made up of its own incalculable dimensions which intersect with our world. In one sense it is the world about which we do not yet know, though we ache to be part of it, yet in another sense distinctions between 'there' and 'now', at the best we 'see through a glass darkly' [ICor 13:12].

Wholly God centred

God will be the overwhelming reality [Rev 21:3]. It will be the reality to which all God's purposes have been eternally moving. It will be the final fruit of God's vindication and triumph. In the words of Augustine :-

"We shall rest and we shall see;

we shall see and we shall love;

we shall love and we shall praise;

this is what will be at the end without end".
​

The awareness of the presence of God will be the supreme feature of heaven, it will mark all life, "we shall see his face" [Rev 22:4], 'we shall see him as he is' [Un 3:2]. Heaven will be the endless exploration of his unutterable beauty, God himself. The eternal dance of worship.

Fulfilment and continuity

It is not 'pure spirit'. The New Testament speaks not of 'heaven' but a 'new heaven and earth'. The form of this world as we know it is passing away [ICor 7:31; Mat 24:35] climaxing in the huge movement of energy [2Pt 3:12-13], yet the present creation waits in longing to share in the glorious liberty of the Sons of God [Rm 8:19-25]. Our life will be an embodied life with a clear continuity with what we know now, with all potential realised. 'Heaven will be a self-conscious embodied existence with new enhanced powers'.

Place of community

The Bible always speaks of heaven in social terms; a city, a kingdom, a temple, a wedding feast. We shall be together with all God's people. Heaven will hold undreamed of possibilities at the level of social relationships. This is why we have resurrection bodies: it is neither individualism nor absorption into world spirit; it will be corporate in the truest sense of the word.


Comments, anyone?

 

[Scholar in training]

Did you know that pre-millenial dispensationalism is an 18th century invention by John Nelson Darby? Was Christian theology in error the first 1700 years of its existence or is this modern view of literally reading every word that was written in different languages originally and was translated from words that have no modern equivalence way off the mark?

But the literal view of hell is not exactly the "modern view". Even orthodox preterists, who have existed since John the Apostle, read a literal hell in Scripture.

For God did not send Jesus into the world to condemn the world but so that through him the world might be saved.

John 8:15-16
You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.

 

[ottaia]

John 8:15-16
You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.

So if I judge you wrong, then "I am not alone?"

 

[Scholar in training]

So if I judge you wrong, then "I am not alone?"

The point was that while Jesus was not sent to the world to condemn it, it is quite clear that he does judge and condemn when the situation calls for it.

 

[stumpjumper]

The point was that while Jesus was not sent to the world to condemn it, it is quite clear that he does judge and condemn when the situation calls for it.

Most universalists would say that God judges all of us regardless of our professed religious affiliation.

Just saying you are a Christian does not get you the special entrance.

 

[Scholar in training]

Most universalists would say that God judges all of us regardless of our professed religious affiliation.

I wasn't referring to judgment at the last day, if that's what you are thinking of. I was referring to judgment in general. Whether or not Christians are judged at the last day does not change the fact that Jesus does judge, condemn, and anathamize -- even eternally -- when appropriate.

 

[AndreLinoge]

If salvation is totally by grace, then you are left with either Calvinism or Universalim. In both of these, God gets all the credit; he alone is Savior. You just have to decide whether God loves all or just a select few.

 

[stumpjumper]

I wasn't referring to judgment at the last day, if that's what you are thinking of. I was referring to judgment in general. Whether or not Christians are judged at the last day does not change the fact that Jesus does judge, condemn, and anathamize -- even eternally -- when appropriate.

What makes you believe that a judgement that lasts eternally means that the judged will neccesarily be eternally condemned?

(I'm thinking of how Jesus described forgiveness in my prelude to that question.)

 

[ottaia]

If salvation is totally by grace, then you are left with either Calvinism or Universalim. In both of these, God gets all the credit; he alone is Savior. You just have to decide whether God loves all or just a select few.

Ok everybody, read it, learn it, live it, LOVE IT!

 

[Scholar in training]

What makes you believe that a judgement that lasts eternally means that the judged will neccesarily be eternally condemned?

Well, will there be judgment in heaven?

(I'm thinking of how Jesus described forgiveness in my prelude to that question.)

How did he describe forgiveness?

If salvation is totally by grace

Salvation is by grace through faith. Calvinists and universalists -- in different ways -- do tend to misunderstand the meaning of "faith" as loyalty to God. How do we know whether one loves God? Whether he does what Jesus said to do.

 

[Martinez]

here something I have from my study notes..

HELL : ETERNAL SEPARATION Solemn reality

Bible teaching on the subject of judgment is clear and awesome in its seriousness. Those who remain unrepentant when confronted with God's claims, who reject his will even when it is made known to them, who continue to live in rebellion; these face a fearful destiny. The most common word in English for the fate of these who have passed under God's final judgment and stand guilty is 'Hell'.

Hell is a reality of unspeakable solemnity. It is not a place, it is a dimension. It is a 'nothing realm', a terrible negative; it is eternal destruction, it is separation from 'the presence of the Lord' [2Th 1:8-9]. Permanent inaccessibility to God, carrying into eternity the decision taken by a person in this life.

The biblical language about this ultimate separation from God is not intended as a description; instead the images like those of 'fire', 'darkness' and 'sulphur' are symbolic. They describe a reality beyond present experience. They are divinely inspired, but they don't tell us everything, however, they do not mislead us. We must have care when speaking about 'Hell'. It is more terrible than we can imagine, yet we must not use lurid descriptions to frighten people into responding to the gospel, but neither must we minimise the power of the warnings.







Sorry, but that is Dead wrong!

If you are going to use the parts in the bible that have been wrongly translated to say Hell instead of Sheol, Gehenna, etc...
then you must include the verse where David Says,

"though I make my bed in Hell, you are there!"

How can God be there and not there at the same time?
He can't.
Eternal seperation from God is a stupid theological argument.

Can We have a little common sense please!

 

[Mailman Dan]

Ok everybody, read it, learn it, live it, LOVE IT!

What needs to be learned is that Grace though Faith in Christ is what saves...not just grace. Thats why Universalist disreguard all the repeated warnings of eternal judgement (or any judgement in some cases) in scripture, as they believe a different gospel than what Jesus taught. (in my opinion)

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Dan do you realize that the word "hell" as we commonly understand it does not appear in scripture? "Hell" is translated from four different words: Gehanna, Sheol, Hades, and Tartarus.

One thing that bugs the heck out of posters on either side, is the fact you feel no one read what you posted.

Not a single verse I posted that described Hell/Lake of fire contained that word. I have agrued that the descriptions run though the bible of a place of judgement, and the scripture is ignored because of the word "Hell," which I never argued in the first place... You didn't even notice?

The descriptions are there, however I do understand many Universalist argue about weither or not the bible is creditable in those parts, mostly because they disagree with it. Paul is also rated as a second hand author, which denys the power that was given to him being appointed as a messenger.

Dan~~~>hasn't had alot of free time to debate lately (darn pagan holidays)

 

[ottaia]

What needs to be learned is that Grace though Faith in Christ is what saves...not just grace. Thats why Universalist disreguard all the repeated warnings of eternal judgement (or any judgement in some cases) in scripture, as they believe a different gospel than what Jesus taught. (in my opinion)

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

WHat does the scripture have to do with anything and why did you bold those words?