Universalism VS. Scripture

[Scholar in training]

I see there is no point trying to reason with you Scholar wannabe!

My behavior will change when yours does. I see no see reason to withhold from using riposte when someone slanders a Church by attacking and tearing down his own strawmen in the Church's field.

You try to answer aurguements with your stupid scholar rules that you have obviously just learned!

What "stupid scholar rules" would those be? Actually researching a topic before I talk about it, in doing so not sticking my foot in my mouth?

and btw if someone prays to Mary and the saints, thats tadamount to worship.

No, it's not.

as I said I grew up in the catholic church and I know what goes on there.

If someone adores Mary or the saints then that is their folly. It is anything but an official teaching of either the "Catholic" or Orthodox Churches; indeed it is a heresy to worship Mary or the saints. If you really grew up in the "Catholic" Church then you should have learned that praying to the saints is not the same thing as worshipping them. To deny the practice entirely is to deny the Communion of the saints established by Christ -- if Jesus swallowed up death, then why is the early community of believers "separated" in such a way from the heavenly community?

I was not being insulting the first time you butted in and accused Me of being insulting

Yes, you were. You said many untruthful things about the Catholic Church. When I called you out on these things you did not respond to them but instead said simply "gee they're pretty inseparable aren't they?"

Just because you are a "scholar in learning" do you think you have some sort of upper hand in this debate?

Not in so many words, and not because I am a "Scholar in training", but rather because of your flagrant disrespect for the Church and your erroneous argument. Do you realize that you have not elaborated on your opinion until now? At least you are discussing this now rather than giving your readers a "said-so" statement alone to go on.

Do you feel superior?

No, I feel amused, but I will thank you not to presume my thoughts and intentions.

I question their accuracy.

You are in no position to question anyone's accuracy.

 

[Mailman Dan]

to answer your question Dan, I do believe that the Bible is the word of God and I believe it very strongly.

Good start....

You really do have all the hall marks of a modern day pharisee.

You say that because I believe scripture says there is a hell?

What did Jesus say to the Pharisees?

Here's a few quotes, from Jesus...

Matthew 23:15
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Matthew 23:33
Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

Truely ironic don't you think?

You see, you don't believe what the bible says on the issue, no matter if it was Jesus, or any other author. It makes no difference if "hell" doesn't appear in a translation, because the description is there though the whole of the bible.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mark 9:44
where ‘ Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:15
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

I believe in universal reconcilation not becuase I don't believe the Bible or understand what it says, on the contrary, It is because I believe and understand what it says!

Is it fair to say you disagree with what all these (which is only a very small sample) scriptures say? Of course you do. One can not be a Universalist and believe the bible is all true.

What happens is, you over write your personal doctrine over these verses. (of course we all do it at some point)

This allows us to ignore the warnings and write new doctrine to counter scripture. Like this one..

but first of all He hates the sin not the sinner.

No where in the bible does it say that. It does say God wants all men to repent, but then follows with a warning He has appointed a day in which He will judge the world.

Wihout punishment, justice doesn't exist. Scripture makes very clear what hell is, even if you deny the very word of it.

Here's a few text to look up in the translation of your choice.

The Bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following:

• "Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2)
• "Everlasting punishment" (Mathew 25:46)
• "Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51)
• "Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17)
• "Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9)
• "Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
• "Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13)

Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."



Unless you understand God is just, and going to punish sin, I can understand why you don't believe those text. None the less, scripture doesn't alter to fit the universalist beliefs.


Dan~~~>hopes you take time to read those text in your translation (post the text if you can)

 

[Martinez]

My behavior will change when yours does. I see no see reason to withhold from using riposte when someone slanders a Church by attacking and tearing down his own strawmen in the Church's field.


What "stupid scholar rules" would those be? Actually researching a topic before I talk about it, in doing so not sticking my foot in my mouth?


No, it's not.


If someone adores Mary or the saints then that is their folly. It is anything but an official teaching of either the "Catholic" or Orthodox Churches; indeed it is a heresy to worship Mary or the saints. If you really grew up in the "Catholic" Church then you should have learned that praying to the saints is not the same thing as worshipping them. To deny the practice entirely is to deny the Communion of the saints established by Christ -- if Jesus swallowed up death, then why is the early community of believers "separated" in such a way from the heavenly community?


Yes, you were. You said many untruthful things about the Catholic Church. When I called you out on these things you did not respond to them but instead said simply "gee they're pretty inseparable aren't they?"


Not in so many words, and not because I am a "Scholar in training", but rather because of your flagrant disrespect for the Church and your erroneous argument. Do you realize that you have not elaborated on your opinion until now? At least you are discussing this now rather than giving your readers a "said-so" statement alone to go on.


No, I feel amused, but I will thank you not to presume my thoughts and intentions.


You are in no position to question anyone's accuracy.

Well it looks like the Devil really is in the detail.
which seems to be where you are!

Don't bother replying.

I won't be!

 

[Scholar in training]

Well

As you prefer a less detailed response, I will not deign to post further on the issue.

 

[Mailman Dan]

You didn't even have time to read it man...I can't help if you don't believe scripture. (you couldn't have read those scriptures in the 2 minutes between posting)

I'm guessing that God does not punish except to amend. Thus, only those who yield themselves to God's punishment will be corrected and healed.

Do you take guessing over the bible as your source of information?


I used to believe in alot of things that the bible doesn't speak of. I had built my "own" doctrines based on my guessing. It doesn't work...


Dan~~~>no longer believes in ghost, but does believe in demonic forces

 

[Martinez]

You didn't even have time to read it man...I can't help if you don't believe scripture. (you couldn't have read those scriptures in the 2 minutes between posting)




Do you take guessing over the bible as your source of information?


I used to believe in alot of things that the bible doesn't speak of. I had built my "own" doctrines based on my guessing. It doesn't work...


Dan~~~>no longer believes in ghost, but does believe in demonic forces

He probibly didn't need to.

They are the same ones you always post!

so Dan, how many scriptures are there that talk about Hell if you don't count the ones that use the word Hell, since it's not even in the Bible?
the word Hell is an old English word that means "to cover over".
can you bake your potatoes while your planting them?

 

[Mailman Dan]

He probibly didn't need to.

Um...that was you that responded in 2 minutes, which didn't give you enough time to read the post, and call me a devil at the same time.
(did you mean the other guy?)

They are the same ones you always post!

I've posted several, but many read the same. Start over at page one.

BTW, look at the post I put up you didn't read, as there were several there.

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Those two come from revelation, a book many universalist I've spoke with don't believe should be in the bible. Do you?


And again, I ask...

Can you post these verses in the translation you use?
(descriptions of hell without the word hell)

• "Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2)
• "Everlasting punishment" (Mathew 25:46)
• "Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51)
• "Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17)
• "Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9)
• "Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
• "Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13)

Dan~~~>would love a civil conversation on the "HOT" topic (bad pun)

 

[ottaia]

This thread has become thuroughly stupid.

 

[Mailman Dan]

BTW..I never got to respond to this....

I doubt their would be even one person here that would hate you.
thats the fudies department not ours!

And yet...

You really do have all the hall marks of a modern day pharisee.

Well it looks like the Devil really is in the detail.
which seems to be where you are!

I see there is no point trying to reason with you Scholar wannabe!

Just because you are a scholar wannabe dosen't make you smart, it obviously doesn't give you the ability to reason and it doesn't mean that you understand the scriptures better!

Do Me a favour and go back to your books, and leaving thinking to those who are cappable of it!

Sometimes The Irony meter can't handle the load...




Dan~~~>thought that was really funny

 

[Zippity]

Wow, I had like 2 great posts on this thread, but they completely disappeared! What happened to them?

 

[ottaia]

Wow, I had like 2 great posts on this thread, but they completely disappeared! What happened to them?

You've been censored!!

 

[Zippity]

You've been censored!!

But I thought this part of the forums you were allowed to say things like "the imposition of God's justice is good for the welfare and the joy of the sinner -- God does not punish except to amend"?

 

[Zippity]

There are no divine penalties for sin. God does not punish except to amend. When God renders his justice, holiness, and punishment upon a human, they are healed and amiliorated. The only people who will not be saved (from their evil) are those who succeed in escaping the wrath to come. God is virtuous -- that is to say, holy, just, loving, and merciful. God does not penalize. God is not cruel, God is not sadistic, wicked, evil, or malicious. He does not follow a purely human scheme of "justice" -- lex talionas, "the law of the claw."

 

[Martinez]

I give up Dan!

you don't really want to know the truth.
your just content to be blind led by others that are blind.
I hope that one day you will wake up and smell the coffie, but I'm afraid it will probably be to late.

I was like you once, then God showed Me the truth,
now I'm free!
Free to love him because I choose, not because I'm afraid not to.
only those that choose to love God now (according to you) will escape "Hell".
the Irony being that most of those wont be entering into the kingdom because they didn't love him at all.
they were just responding out of fear!

Ironic don't you think?

true love only comes from being able to choose.
being told to choose love or firery torcher doesn't make sense to the thinking mind, (ie not yours).

farewell Dan.

 

[Zippity]

"Is -- is he a man?" asked Lucy.

"Aslan a man!" said Mr. Beaver sternly. "Certainly not. I tell you he is the King of wood and the son of the great Emperor-Beyond-the-Sea. Don't you know who is the King of the Beasts? Aslan is a lion -- the Lion, the great Lion."

"Ooh," said Susan, "I thought he was a man. Is he -- quite safe? I shall feel rather nervous about meeting a lion."

"That you will, dearie, and make no mistake," said Mrs. Beaver, "if there's anyone who can appear before Aslan without their knees knocking, they're either braver than most or else silly."

"Then he isn't safe?" said Lucy.

"Safe?" said Mr. Beaver, "don't you hear what Mrs. Beaver tells you? Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe. But he's good. He's the King, I tell you."






Then Hwin, though shaking all over, gave a strange little neigh, and trotted across to the Lion. — "Please," she said, "you're so beautiful. You may eat me if you like. I'd sooner be eaten by you then fed by anyone else." — "Dearest daughter," said Aslan, planting a lion's kiss on her twitching, velvet nose, "I knew you would not be long in coming to me. Joy shall be yours."

 

[jgarden]

Why doesn't scripture agree with the teaching that everyone goes to heaven?

..........That’s why the Bible warns that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Without judgement, there's no fear. Scripture makes it clear that God is going to give to everyone according to what they have done.

The existence of hell and the surety of the judgment are not the claims of fallible man. The Bible is the source of the claim, and it is utterly infallible. When someone becomes a Christian, he is admitting that he was in the wrong, and that God is justified in His declarations that we have sinned against Him.

Why do you believe the bible is wrong on this issue?

Dan~~~>trying to understand the reasoning behind universalism

"As we submit this translation of the Bible for publication, we recognize that any translation of the Scriptures is subject to limitations and imperfections. Anyone who has attempted to communicate the richness of God's Word into another language will realize it is impossible to make a perfect translation."
- Bible Translation Committee, New Living Translation Bible

The original manuscripts may have been "divinely inspired" but the translators of various versions of the Bible upon which we base our knowledge don't make that claim.

 

[loriersea]

I have a verse for everything...

1 John 3:15

Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.



So tell me why you don't believe God will punish evil, the way the bible says He will?


Dan~~~>wonders where you get your doctrines from

And, if you believe that someone is going to burn in hell for all eternity, AND that that is just, you hate that person, too. So, anyone who believes in eternal damnation and doesn't rebel against the idea or find it entirely horrific is a murderer, I suppose.

Once again, you refuse to acknowledge that eternal torture is not the only way to punish evil. If my son does something wrong, I don't need to torture him or kill him in order to punish him. My punishment is corrective; it is intended to teach him that his actions have consequences, so he will make better choices next time. If we wouldn't beat our children bloody when they deserve punishment, why would we think God would torture his creations for all eternity when they deserve punishment?

 

[Mailman Dan]

And, if you believe that someone is going to burn in hell for all eternity, AND that that is just, you hate that person, too.

Not True..

Because I believe God is just, and as the bible says, has set aside a day to judge the world, I warn them. I give out tracts, pray for them, and do my best to try to explain why Jesus died for their sin on the cross, and took the punishment of God's wrath on Himself, and that anyone who trust in Him can be forgiven on those grounds. I witness to others because I care. Its those who don't share the Christian faith that don't care about others.

"Have you no wish for others to be saved? Then you are not saved yourself, be sure of that!"
C. H. Spurgeon

If we wouldn't beat our children bloody when they deserve punishment, why would we think God would torture his creations for all eternity when they deserve punishment?

False anology...

The bible is clear we are not all "God's children."

John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

So where do you get your beliefs? Mine are taken from the bible, and I've repeatedly shown you where they come from, in which no one can agrue against without claiming the bible is in eror. That was my point from the beginning. One can not be a universalist and believe the bible is 100% true, you have to make up your own doctrines without scripture.

you don't really want to know the truth.
your just content to be blind led by others that are blind.

All I asked you to do was post scripture for your doctrine and try to prove why the bible is wrong. (in the scripture I posted)

I guess, at least, your starting to see your doctrine doesn't exist..

Dan~~~>thinks you have proven the point well

 

[stumpjumper]

All I asked you to do was post scripture for your doctrine and try to prove why the bible is wrong. (in the scripture I posted)

I guess, at least, your starting to see your doctrine doesn't exist..

Dan~~~>thinks you have proven the point well


1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach,[a] because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Look up the root word for salvation and you will see that it is a process not a destination. Christians are called to be amabassadors of Christ who is "reconciling the world to Himself":

2 Corinthians 5

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.​

​

If salvation is a process and God is reconciling the world to Himself in Christ Jesus, do you dismiss the above passage and 1 Timothy 4:10 ?


Stumpjumper~ I thought Dan never discounts scripture.

 

[Scholar in training]

If my son does something wrong, I don't need to torture him or kill him in order to punish him.

No, but he may be shamed by what he has done, which is what will happen in hell.

"As we submit this translation of the Bible for publication, we recognize that any translation of the Scriptures is subject to limitations and imperfections. Anyone who has attempted to communicate the richness of God's Word into another language will realize it is impossible to make a perfect translation."
- Bible Translation Committee, New Living Translation Bible

The original manuscripts may have been "divinely inspired" but the translators of various versions of the Bible upon which we base our knowledge don't make that claim.

The Committee said, correctly, that "any translation of the Scriptures is subject to limitations and imperfections". They did not indicate the extent that this is so.