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Universalism VS. Scripture

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Mailman Dan

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Therefore, the people with love see love, unity, and good will in the Bible, while the haters see a weapon in the Bible to bash people with. We just have to try and protect the poor individuals that they try to hurt so they can feel superior.

Could you be more specific about what your trying to say? Sin is wrong in God's eyes, and Jesus said no one is good. No Christian should ever think himself "better" than a non-Christian. In the end, we are saved by God's grace, not because any "Christian" is better than any non-christian.

But scripture says there are many false Christians. I count those to be in two groups. One group that does insane things, like say God hates (fill in the blank here) or say we should kill leaders of other governments...ect...

The other group is more demonic in my opinion. They alter scripture based doctrines to water down the gospel. They remove the truth of God's law, that sin is sin, no matter our personal opinions of it. Those who will no longer stand with God's word and declare sin wrong, are not Christians, no matter their claim. In the end, will likely be the reason so many people fail to understand why Christ died for their sins, as they try to hide the very truths spoke of in scripture.

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



Dan~~~>believes scripture is very clear
 
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loriersea

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One thing that always strikes me as probably the most obvious experiential falsification of the doctrine of eternal torment is the fact that I do sometimes (and I'm not proud of this) wish eternal torture on others. When I hear a prominent Christian or right-wing pundit, for example, make a particularly hateful or disturbing comment, I will sometimes find myself honestly, deeply wishing that they would be punished for all eternity. And then once my rage subsides, I realize that that is ridiculous, and that they do not deserve that, no matter how awful they may be.

I honestly cannot believe for even one moment that God is like me at my absolute worst, most hateful moments.
 
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stumpjumper

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Mailman Dan said:
Some can make the mistake that judgement means "In this life," as I have read that many times. (yes, I do read what people write, but it doesn't make their doctrines correct) There are many good Christians that suffer in this life, as well as people who escape justice after murdering someone. Scripture says that "Blackest darkness is reserved," which will come at its time no doubt.

What suffering? Physical suffering? I am sure there are things that Christians experience as we all experience physical sufferings. Just because one is a Christian does not mean that they are exempt from suffering, although they should be shielded from spiritual suffering.

Dan. I just don't know what your point is in this thread and you just keep bringing it back up (usually with out of context quotes ;) )

Why do you care so much that some people are universalists???

You will most likely never convince me that anyone is going to hell. As Christians, we are to live in Christ who has saved mankind from death and,if we are to live in Christ, we are to hope for the salvation of all. That is what the message of Jesus Christ demonstrates: that eternal life is open to and welcoming to all.

How can you live in Christ , which means to live in love for all others, and believe that most of the people who have ever lived are headed for eternal damnation?

Still doesn't understand why a few people believe this and the hundreds of other scriptures are not true

Do me one favor. No more silly thereafters as they just bug me.
 
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Scholar in training

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Martinez said:
Hmmm,

Dan, tell me which one of the following statements is untrue.

God is unwilling that all men be saved, or

God is not mighty enough that all men be saved?:)
False dichotomy. The problem does not lie with God.
 
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Mailman Dan

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Dan. I just don't know what your point is in this thread and you just keep bringing it back up (usually with out of context quotes ;) )

Even when I post the entire chapters, those who deny what is written will claim "it's out of context" simply because they don't believe in it. You proved it yourself)

You will most likely never convince me that anyone is going to hell.

That is true. You won't believe it until you see it, but scripture doesn't change if someone doesn't believe that part. Your just proving what I said is true, that those that claim that all people are "auto-saved" does not come from scripture.

Matthew 5:29
If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Matthew 23:33
Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

More proof text, just for you. It's like Jesus was trying to warn us about something.....


How can you live in Christ , which means to live in love for all others, and believe that most of the people who have ever lived are headed for eternal damnation?

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

I can do so because I understand and believe in scripture. (Yes, making me one of the most hated people on this planet...as shown by the types of responses) Of course, the bible says that will happen...so no big deal.


Dan, tell me which one of the following statements is untrue.

God is unwilling that all men be saved, or

God is not mighty enough that all men be saved?


Let me ask you one...

Do you believe the bible is the Word of God?

If so, does God have the power to remove things that were added by man?

If so, why does so much scripture warn about judgement for sin, and the punishment for those found in it?


Dan~~~>already been down that rabbit trail
 
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Mailman Dan

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One thing that always strikes me as probably the most obvious experiential falsification of the doctrine of eternal torment is the fact that I do sometimes (and I'm not proud of this) wish eternal torture on others. When I hear a prominent Christian or right-wing pundit, for example, make a particularly hateful or disturbing comment, I will sometimes find myself honestly, deeply wishing that they would be punished for all eternity. And then once my rage subsides, I realize that that is ridiculous, and that they do not deserve that, no matter how awful they may be.

I honestly cannot believe for even one moment that God is like me at my absolute worst, most hateful moments.

I have a verse for everything...

1 John 3:15

Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.



So tell me why you don't believe God will punish evil, the way the bible says He will?


Dan~~~>wonders where you get your doctrines from
 
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ottaia

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Mailman Dan said:
Matthew 5:29
If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
in it?


Dan~~~>already been down that rabbit trail
ottaia~~~>wonders if Dan has plucked out his eyes?
 
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stumpjumper

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Mailman Dan said:
Even when I post the entire chapters, those who deny what is written will claim "it's out of context" simply because they don't believe in it. You proved it yourself)

But you must have a systematic method of reading the Bible. Remember that the Bible was not written in English and some words like "love" or even "word" have at least four different source words. We should not translate "logos" and "graphe" the same way but English Bibles do translate those words as such.

Sure, you could quote Matthew 25 and show that Jesus judges upon works not faith and that there is eternal torment.

But, you do not believe that God judges based upon works? Do you :D

Do you deny Matthew 25?



That is true. You won't believe it until you see it, but scripture doesn't change if someone doesn't believe that part. Your just proving what I said is true, that those that claim that all people are "auto-saved" does not come from scripture.

Nobody is "auto-saved" and this statement proves that you do not read what people write.

Let me ask you one...

Do you believe the bible is the Word of God?

The Word of God is Jesus.

Jesus is not the Bible.

If so, does God have the power to remove things that were added by man?

The Bible is not God and even without the Bible God would still exist. It matters not whether there are factual errors in the Bible.

If so, why does so much scripture warn about judgement for sin, and the punishment for those found in it?

Because there are consequences for sin. I will not repeat what I have written to you every post. You do not comprehend anything but damnation.
 
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dillpickle

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Martinez said:
Hmmm,

Dan, tell me which one of the following statements is untrue.

God is unwilling that all men be saved, or

God is not mighty enough that all men be saved?:)

God is JUST. He can not simply overlook sin.


Also, if we all make our way to heaven, what's the point of witnessing to others and preaching the gospel message? Would Jesus' last orders have been to go and make disciples if it wasn't necessary?
 
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Martinez

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Oh Dan!

You really do have all the hall marks of a modern day pharisee.
you quote a lot of scripture, but you don't know what it means.
The unhealthy fear you have of God has blinded your mind to the good news!

Is our God a split personality God?
is he "saving" a few from his angry half?
and if thats the kind of thinking,(which it is)
then mabey all sinners claim that their sinfull halves did it not their good halves.

so which halves will get saved from the fires of Hell then, Hhmmmm?

by the way Dan I suggest you get yourself a Youngs literal translation or something like that, beause the word hell doesn't even appear in the bible.

hows this for a interesting fact?

did you know that in the bible, they changed certain words because nobody would know what they ment, and it was just conveinient?
words like corn and candle are in there, despite the fact that those things weren't there in the original.
corn wasn't grown there, and candles didn't exist yet.

Hmmmm, how much more likely would they be likey to change something that didn't fit there dogma!

the truth is Dan that all religions of the world believe in a Hell.
so which came first the chicken or the egg?
did they copy us or did we copy them?

to answer your question Dan, I do believe that the Bible is the word of God and I believe it very strongly.
I also trust God to do whats best for Me and the rest of man kind.
but man has a proven history of lying and twisting the truth to suit himself.
wouldn't you agree?

Case in point.

X Church, (I'm sure you know who I'm talking about) got hold of the original message and twisted beyond recognition.
Eg. theres not just one Hell but a few, praying to the saints, worship of and praying to Mary, long pompous ritiuals and prayers etc, etc.
and many of these practices go on today!
that church originally hid the message from the masses by concelling it in a latin translation called the Vulgate which only the preist were allowed to read. (a little bit suspect wouldn't you agree?
This Church plunged the world into one the most terrible times in human History,
Known as the dark ages!
this church was one of the most corrupt orgonisations on earth, only rivaled by the Nazis!

Now I take my hat off to Martin Luther, He did a bang up jo, but how close to the original gospel do you think He could get.
considering that He would of suffered from what you suffer from.
You have been bought up your whole life with a certain belief system in place,
you don't just drop the whole system!
you can't your locked into a certain way of thinking, plus youve go their transltion of the Bible.
You don't just read those verses in a whole new light, you can't!
it takes Gods power to do that.
on top on that you now view verses in the Bible that have nothing to do with Hell, now sounding like their talking about Hell.
so tell how far reformed do you think He got the church?

anyone can quote sciptures Dan, but not everyone can understand them,
as you're kindly demonstrated for us.

God condenm people on the one hand and some of them out of the fire on the other unless they believe in his son.
that sounds like a protection racket to Me!

God does not send people to Hell and save only a few!
Such a God would be devided against Himself, and we all know what Jesus said about this don't We.

do Me a favour Dan, don't reply to this post with just vain scripture quotes, any halfwitted, mindless Zombie can do that!
I want you to post some of your own thinking on the subject, show us why your
God would do such a thing, unless you afraid that your God will throw you into the fire!
He who the son sets free is free indeed!
having a mind that is bound up by fear is not freedom.

ps.

I doubt their would be even one person here that would hate you.
thats the fudies department not ours!
 
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Scholar in training

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Martinez said:
You really do have all the hall marks of a modern day pharisee.
This is very insulting, although sadly not surprising to see.

by the way Dan I suggest you get yourself a Youngs literal translation or something like that, beause the word hell doesn't even appear in the bible.
If this is even true, we should remember that the word "Trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible either. So? Your quip doesn't tell us whether the concept is present or not.

did you know that in the bible, they changed certain words because nobody would know what they ment, and it was just conveinient?
Ummm -- professional scholars do not "change certain words" because "nobody" would know what they ment. Translation is a bit more complicated than that, and of course people living centuries ago did not have the access to the amount of materials or knowledge of the ANE that we have today.

the truth is Dan that all religions of the world believe in a Hell.
This is, ironically, not true. Some religions do not believe in hell.

X Church, (I'm sure you know who I'm talking about) got hold of the original message and twisted beyond recognition.
Eg. theres not just one Hell but a few, praying to the saints, worship of and praying to Mary, long pompous ritiuals and prayers etc, etc.
All of those except for one are a strawman. I will thank you not to mock them unless you would like your beliefs berated.

that church originally hid the message from the masses by concelling it in a latin translation called the Vulgate which only the preist were allowed to read.
The priests were not the only ones "allowed to read" the Bible. This was before the printing press and even before the split in 1054. You cannot fault Christians for wanting to preserve their work by -- oh, say -- chaining copies of a finished copy of the Bible to a wall because of the work, time, and effort invested in faithfully copying manuscripts. These Bibles, BTW, were open to everyone to read, but they were obviously not of the library "check-it-out-and-go" variety.

this church was one of the most corrupt orgonisations on earth, only rivaled by the Nazis!
This is an insane comparison. The Church never systematically hunted down and killed a race. Even "atrocities" like the Inquisition were not race-oriented and still nothing like the Holocaust or Stalin's death camps.

If you want to complain about something that some members of the Catholic Church once engaged in, you can talk about indulgences and simony, but certainly not extermination. :help:

The rest of your diatribe is beyond this thread's scope; we are talking about universalism here, not the Church.
 
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Martinez

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dillpickle said:
God is JUST. He can not simply overlook sin.


Also, if we all make our way to heaven, what's the point of witnessing to others and preaching the gospel message? Would Jesus' last orders have been to go and make disciples if it wasn't necessary?


Yes you are absolutely correct! God cant just overlook sin,
wow! I never thought of that before.

well let me start by answering your first question.
God hates sin, He hates it passionately!
but first of all He hates the sin not the sinner.
and secondly He hates sin because He hates it effects, he hate the suffering it brings untill eventually it brings death!
this is an abomination to him.
it is a perversion of his creation, which bears His Image.
We bear His image most completely, but the whole of creation bears aspects of his Image, all of it!

Satan knew that if He could cause the fall of creation, then that would be like God veiwing Himself as a reflection in Satans Image, and satan has only death in him, whilst God is life.
as bad a blasphemy as anyone could think up.

so since God hates sin because it brings suffering and death, He cannot stand idolly by while it goes unchecked.

so will God bring about the thing that He hates so much to continue forever to unthought of degrees?

would you do such a thing?
are you better and more loving than God?

I believe in universal reconcilation not becuase I don't believe the Bible or understand what it says, on the contrary, It is because I believe and understand what it says!

sorry I will have to answer the rest of your post latter.
 
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Martinez

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Scholar in training said:
This is very insulting, although sadly not surprising to see.

actually I was refering to the fact that they could quote the scriptures but never really knew what they ment, so that when the truth did come and hit them in the Face they didn't recognise Him.

If this is even true, we should remember that the word "Trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible either. So? Your quip doesn't tell us whether the concept is present or not.

Yes but we know that there are three parts of God.


Ummm -- professional scholars do not "change certain words" because "nobody" would know what they ment. Translation is a bit more complicated than that, and of course people living centuries ago did not have the access to the amount of materials or knowledge of the ANE that we have today.

I was refering to them changing them so that it would make more sense to the reader.

This is, ironically, not true. Some religions do not believe in hell.

Yes really? which ones?
don't keep them to yourself, please share!

actually, I was bought up a catholic, so I know about many of their sorded beliefs which are unbilical and some that even go directlly against the teaching of the in the Bible.

All of those except for one are a strawman. I will thank you not to mock them unless you would like your beliefs berated.

actually, I was bought up a catholic, so I know about many of their sorded beliefs which are unbilical and some that even go directlly against the teaching of the in the Bible.
if you are going to say something isn't true, then a least provide some examples or evidence, I know I am.

The priests were not the only ones "allowed to read" the Bible. This was before the printing press and even before the split in 1054. You cannot fault Christians for wanting to preserve their work by -- oh, say -- chaining copies of a finished copy of the Bible to a wall because of the work, time, and effort invested in faithfully copying manuscripts. These Bibles, BTW, were open to everyone to read, but they were obviously not of the library "check-it-out-and-go" variety.

ok then If that is the case I do stand corrected, but that does no change the fact the it was in latten, and who the Hell amongst the people could speak latten or even read for that matter?

This is an insane comparison. The Church never systematically hunted down and killed a race. Even "atrocities" like the Inquisition were not race-oriented and still nothing like the Holocaust or Stalin's death camps.

these people did insanely evil things that the Nazis would have been proud of, but a least the Nazis did not have the Hide to claim that it was in the name of God.
your little rebuttle is just nitpicking, the fact these things were done in the name of religion insted of racial hatred makes little difference, they were still performed out of the evil of mens hearts!

If you want to complain about something that some members of the Catholic Church once engaged in, you can talk about indulgences and simony, but certainly not extermination. :help:

actually I was using this supposed people of God as an example.
the are certainly not the only ones.
the teachers of the law who were God's own chosen people and they murded Him!
both had knowledge of the scriptures, but few had understanding.
God uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise apparrently!

The rest of your diatribe is beyond this thread's scope; we are talking about universalism here, not the Church.

Gee, in view of the dicussion are the two separable?
 
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Scholar in training

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Martinez said:
Gee, in view of the dicussion are the two separable?
Yes. Your theory has as much evidence to support it as skeptics have to support the theory that Constantine selected the canon himself in A.D. 325.
 
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Martinez

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Scholar in training said:
Yes. Your theory has as much evidence to support it as skeptics have to support the theory that Constantine selected the canon himself in A.D. 325.



Hey do you have a point?

or is your point only to point out others alledged faillings or faults!

perhaps you would actually like to contribute something?

which one of these statements is true "scholar wannabee".

God is Mighty to save? or,

God is willing that all be saved?


surlely you will know, since you are a "schollar in training" .
 
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stumpjumper

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Hey Dan

Let me just ask you a question: why do you care that some Christians are universalists?

Have you taken the time to read a good book about the issue? Han Balthasar, Thomas Talbott, and Richard John Nuehaus are all good authors and have some good books about the subject. If you were to at least read something on the topic than maybe you might have a different understanding of the issue.

I'm not saying that you would ever be a universalist but at least you might understand what universalists actually believe.
 
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Scholar in training

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Martinez said:
Hey do you have a point?
Yes, that your "facts" are false and that your ignorance is shameful.

or is your point only to point out others alledged faillings or faults!
I'm pointing them out because what you are saying is insulting, ridiculous, and ignorant.

perhaps you would actually like to contribute something?
I already have by responding to your errors. You, however, have not bothered to offer anything substantive in answer to them.

which one of these statements is true "scholar wannabee".
You think that the Catholic Church worships Mary and you are calling me a "scholar wannabe"? LOL.

God is Mighty to save? or,

God is willing that all be saved?
I believe I already answered a question very much like this. A false dichotomy does not deserve a thorough answer. In the meantime you might want to work on your syntax.
 
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Martinez

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I see there is no point trying to reason with you Scholar wannabe!

You try to answer aurguements with your stupid scholar rules that you have obviously just learned!
do Me a favour and use some of you grey matter not someone elses!

and btw if someone prays to Mary and the saints, thats tadamount to worship.
as I said I grew up in the catholic church and I know what goes on there.

You accuse me of being shamefull, ignorant and insulting!
I was not being insulting the first time you butted in and accused Me of being insulting,
but then you respond by being a insulting pig!

Just because you are a "scholar in learning" do you think you have some sort of upper hand in this debate?
Do you feel superior?
thats the way you cetainly comes accross.

Just because you are a scholar wannabe dosen't make you smart, it obviously doesn't give you the ability to reason and it doesn't mean that you understand the scriptures better!
case in point.

I know someone who teaches people like you, and He doesn't believe in the Devil.
He thinks that when it refers to the Devil and his angels, that it is talking about the fallen mind of man, really?

then how does someone cast the fallen mind of man into a heard of swine?

Do Me a favour and go back to your books, and leaving thinking to those who are cappable of it!

P.S.

I wouldn't have any regard for what those catholic books say about the History of the catholic church.
I question their accuracy.
 
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