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Universalism VS. Scripture

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Rae

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Should God revoke this gift
--Yes. When people are using it to send themselves to eternal torment? You bet.

And you ignored my earlier point, that people don't really HAVE free will when they're depressed/choosing to torture themselves. By healing them, God gives them free will, not by letting them continue to torture themselves.

I agree primarily with this article.
--Too dense and jargon-laden. If it says that God can't save everyone because of supposed free will, though, I certainly disagree with it. Every time.

A God who won't force someone to change their mind isn't very omnipotent, is he?
--I'd say he doesn't care very much about them when he doesn't do everything possible to save them, yes. That makes him not a God. He might be a powerful spirit, he might care to a degree, but he isn't truly loving or omnipotent, yes.

And you still didn't answer my earlier question appropriately. A theist of a religion that is not yours is NOT rejecting God in any meaningful way. That theist thinks she IS already serving God. :)
 
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Charlie V

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When the free will discussion comes up, invariably someone will mention that we obviously do not have absolute free will, unrestrained will to do absolutely anything.

I don't have free will to fly like Superman, to have x-ray vision, to become ten years younger, to change my race, to change the past, etc.

There are billions of things we don't have free will on. Why is it perfectly acceptable to say that God doesn't give us free will on those things, but suddenly, when we say God doesn't allow us to make the unchangable and irrevokable choice to be tortured for eternity (or shamed for eternity, or however you define it,) does it become a great affront that God would so interfere with our free will?

Fifty billion choices God doesn't let us choose, infinite unchoosable choices, infinite limitation on free will. Can I choose to be invisable? No. Can I choose to become a cat? No. Can I choose to grow another set of teeth? No. God doesn't let me choose any of these things--why not just add "infinite hell" to the list of things God won't let me choose? God's already limited my free will to the billions of other things I can't choose--why not one more little itty bitty limit?

If God drew a line in regards to the "flying like Superman" free will, why is that okay, but God drawing a line in regards to the "being tortured (or shamed) forever," suddenly is a great interferance?

It's actually an absurd argument since nobody really chooses eternal torture (or eternal shame, or however the individual might define hell.)

Also, why would God interfere with future free will by making it irrevokable? Isn't that also interfering with free will?

I choose to eternally be in Jamaica. No, wait, I changed my mind. I choose eternally to be in Florida. Wait, I think I choose eternity in England.

Why should there be any moment in time when my free will is over and the last thing I chose is the one I'm stuck with? Otherwise, isn't stopping the free will interferance with free will? Why can't I choose to spend Monday in heaven, Tuesday in hell, Wednesday in purgatory, Thursday in Bangor, Maine, I'm going to leave Friday open because I'm not sure yet where I want to spend Friday, and I'll let you know later for the weekend and next week.

Why does any destination have to be eternal--doesn't that interfere with my free will to decide where I want to be between noon and 4:00 pm on July 2, 2017?

It seems as though "free will" really means "you have two choices, heaven and hell, for all eternity, pick one," and every other aspect of free will is completely nonexistant, and each of us really has no idea what we're choosing and how to choose it because each of us was taught to be (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, fill-in-the-blank) but these are our only choices and even if we don't know how to choose or what we're choosing--we make that choice, we have no other choices, no other possibilities, just those two, and no idea how to make the choice, but once the choice is made, it's done and done is done, because God favors us having "free will."

I find it very odd that this is called a "gift," as in "Should God revoke this gift?" to which Rae replied, "Yes." Gift? What gift? If the choices were between a tropical paradise of fun and frolics, or a winter paradise of fun and frolics, that would be a gift. If one choice involves something nobody would want or choose, and our "choice" is made unknowingly, as if the intellectual belief that there is no God, or that Mohommad is a prophet, is "the same as choosing hell's sufferings," how can that be considered either a choice or a gift? You're not getting what you really believed you chose or what you really believed you were going to get (the Islamic heaven, say, or ceasing to exist) and it's certainly not a gift being as it's not something you enjoy!

Charlie
 
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Rae

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Well, I decided to be concise. :) That's why I didn't debate whether or not the whole concept of free will is a "gift" or not. If I had, though, I would have argued much as Charlie does. He did a very good job of articulating what I believe on this subject.
 
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somasoma77

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True Christians are loving individuals who serve Christ by serving all. They read the Bible and share the joy and praise of Our Lord.

Christian cults whip, condemn, shout and intimidate everyone and everything. They use the Bible as a rock to stone people with. Sincere Chritians know who these Christian bullies are and are not fooled, but weak Christians are intimidated.

"These things I have spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full." John 15:11
 
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Mailman Dan

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True Christians are loving individuals who serve Christ by serving all. They read the Bible and share the joy and praise of Our Lord.

You only have half the truth.


Christian cults start and finish with hate and fear.

You should do what the bible says....

[font=&quot]2 Corinthians [/font][font=&quot]5[/font][font=&quot]:11[/font][font=&quot]
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

[/font]Jude 1:23[font=&quot]
but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,

[/font] Proverbs 9:10
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.



Proverbs 19:23
The fear of the LORD leads to life: Then one rests content, untouched by trouble.


Proverbs 16:6
By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.


When you lie and claim there is no judgement, as many have, you remove the very reason God gave men to repent. Scripture paints a grim future for those found in their sin.

1 John 3:15

Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,
nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”



Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

[font=&quot]

Be sure the bible, unlike men, speaks the truth.
[/font] Ephesians 5:5-6

[font=&quot]For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the [/font][font=&quot]kingdom[/font][font=&quot] of [/font][font=&quot]Christ[/font][font=&quot] and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. [/font]
[font=&quot]

So why would you tell a half-truth to people and claim there is nothing to fear, when the bible says otherwise?

Agaian...where do you get your information from?

Dan~~~>doesn't read blogs or cultic web sites for their version of religion

[/font]
 
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mark53

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Mailman Dan said:
[font=&quot]2 Corinthians [/font][font=&quot]5[/font][font=&quot]:11[/font][font=&quot]
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

[/font]Jude 1:23[font=&quot]
but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,

[/font]Proverbs 9:10
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Proverbs 19:23
The fear of the LORD leads to life: Then one rests content, untouched by trouble.

Proverbs 16:6
By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

Etc

When you lie and claim there is no judgement, as many have, you remove the very reason God gave men to repent. Scripture paints a grim future for those found in their sin.
[font=&quot]
So why would you tell a half-truth to people and claim there is nothing to fear, when the bible says otherwise?

[/font]

Fear! What is fear? What did it mean to those who the KJV were written. Is it much like the words "gay" "rubber" "Pillows" etc?
Today fear is something bad and to do away with! The Greek word "phobos" (phobia) is also translated "reverence" when used of God or "respect" when used of others. Today, we use respect with much greater understanding closer to that of "reverence" of the past.

One of the greatest difficulties in translating from the Greek (or any other language) in English is that there are NO exact words of their equal! Also words change their meaning over time - which is one of the problems with older translations, like KJV.

So in all of these passages reverence or respect has much the same meaning as the Greek.
 
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Martinez

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Dan,

Why is it so hard to accept the eventual salvation of all?

is it because, like so many others you are afraid that if you don't have your "fear" to guide you then you will be like a sheep without a sheperd?


Why are you a "Christian" Dan?
 
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somasoma77

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In the awareness of God’s omnipresence we realize that God is all loving and always present so there is no need to fear. Do you fear God because you are not living according to God's word or don't you think God is all powerful. I walk with God and know He protects me from all evil so I am not afraid. Stop trembling and open your heart and mind and let God in. Opening the Bible and closing your mind and heart doesn't work. Instead of copying from the Bible let God speak through you, but first you have to let God in.
 
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Martinez

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You know Man,

if you stop to think about it for a second, you might come to this logical conclusion.

If God made his creation perfect,
and sin is inperfection of that creation,
wouldn't God have to restore the universe, in order for it to be perfect?
if locks His inperfect creations for all eternity in a place of firery torcher, as you suppose, then how can the universe be restored to full perfection?
and if God is perfect as He says, can He be perfect if He alowes imperfection to exsist forever?

God says He is love in the bible pure and simple.
it says what love is and is not in corinthians.


its that simple!
 
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Mailman Dan

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God says He is love in the bible pure and simple.

Show me where its says "God is love."

The bible never even says "Jesus loves you." Its rather drawn from putting parts of scripture together.

So what do you think of the other verses?

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Romans 1:18
[ God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness ] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Romans 3:5
But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath?

Romans 12:19
Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Revelation 6:17
For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Why are you a "Christian" Dan?

Read John 3:16

Once you understand sin, then you understand why Christ paid your fine on the cross. Scripture says "He who believes in Him shall be saved."

Once you understand that sin must be punished in the sight of a holy God, the gift of Christ is truely a great gift.

Dan~~~>hopes you understand that as well
 
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stumpjumper

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Mailman Dan said:
Show me where its says "God is love."

The bible never even says "Jesus loves you." Its rather drawn from putting parts of scripture together.

Hi Dan. It's been a while so:

Well Jesus is God and.....

"And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him." 1 John 4:16

And what did Paul believe about the love of Jesus:

Romans 8: 38-39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord
Read John 3:16

Once you understand sin, then you understand why Christ paid your fine on the cross. Scripture says "He who believes in Him shall be saved."

Once you understand that sin must be punished in the sight of a holy God, the gift of Christ is truely a great gift.

Dan~~~>hopes you understand that as well

See this other thread in LT about Karl Barth's interpretation of John 3:16: John 3:16

The sinfull part of us will be destroyed and we will all rise again in the love of Jesus Christ. It is in Christ and not ourselves that we have life. Sin will not be punished it will not be recognized because we are reborn in one whom there is no sin.
 
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Mailman Dan

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Sin will not be punished it will not be recognized because we are reborn in one whom there is no sin.

So then, it was true that "Everyone" is reborn in Christ, why would so much of scripture speak of justice, judgement, and wrath to come?

(see previous post...or original post...for just a very, very small sample)


Obviously, if such things didn't exist, God would have been able to keep them from being part of the Cannon right?


Obviously the doctrine of hell and judgement come from scripture, as already poited out numerous times. One must find a way to discount those parts of the bible in order to follow a Universalist doctrine of all being saved.


Dan~~~>doesn't think there are useless words in the bible
 
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stumpjumper

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Mailman Dan said:
So then, it was true that "Everyone" is reborn in Christ, why would so much of scripture speak of justice, judgement, and wrath to come?

We all receive judgment and through judgment justification (or reconciliation if you wish).

One of the worst views that some Christians hold is that they will not be judged. Our sins are judged. The sinful nature that we are before we become complete in Christ as a new creation will be judged, forgiven, and forgotten. Salvation is a process; not something you automatically receive at the end of your train ride:



2 Corinthians 5: 11-21
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Obviously the doctrine of hell and judgement come from scripture, as already poited out numerous times. One must find a way to discount those parts of the bible in order to follow a Universalist doctrine of all being saved.



Dan~~~>doesn't think there are useless words in the bible

Nobody is discounting what scripture says except you when you fail to read what people write to you. The last time we discussed this was probably two months ago and I fail to see that you read what other people write. Heaven and Hell are not some permanent destinations that we do not experience until after this life. We come through pains, trials, and tribulations in this life and those experiences and how we deal with them affect us in the present and in the future.

If you do not understand that reconciliation is a process then you cannot understand how these references to judgment and justice are being used. Read what Paul has to say before and after that 2 Corinthians passage.

God is love in the Bible. Read that passage in 1 John again also.
 
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AndreLinoge

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Obviously the doctrine of hell and judgement come from scripture, as already poited out numerous times. One must find a way to discount those parts of the bible in order to follow a Universalist doctrine of all being saved.

Obviously the doctrine of universal salvation comes from scripture, as already pointed out numerous times. One must find a way to discount those parts of the bible in order to follow a Partialist doctrine of a few being saved.
 
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Mailman Dan

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The sinful nature that we are before we become complete in Christ as a new creation will be judged, forgiven, and forgotten.

Sin will not be punished it will not be recognized because we are reborn in one whom there is no sin.

For those *IN* Christ, that is a correct statement. However, what I have stated, and scripture does not state, that everyone dies *IN Christ.*

If that were true, judgement would naturally become useless. Scripture makes it very clear that judgement in the next life exist.

2 Peter 2



1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

(This exist today at an extreme level)

4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeonsto be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.

(Do you see the seperation that exist in all of scripture, between "Just and unjust."?)

Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

(scripture makes it clear that judgement will NOT be forgotten)

13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

7These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

It's interesting scripture speaks so much about future judgement, yet so many deny God will judge anyone.

We come through pains, trials, and tribulations in this life and those experiences and how we deal with them affect us in the present and in the future.

Some can make the mistake that judgement means "In this life," as I have read that many times. (yes, I do read what people write, but it doesn't make their doctrines correct) There are many good Christians that suffer in this life, as well as people who escape justice after murdering someone. Scripture says that "Blackest darkness is reserved," which will come at its time no doubt.

Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.



Dan~~~>still doesn't understand why a few people believe this and the hundreds of other scriptures are not true
 
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somasoma77

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We as Christians can accept sinners and people with hate and who have a diminished supple of love, good will and grace. Therefore, the people with love see love, unity, and good will in the Bible, while the haters see a weapon in the Bible to bash people with. We just have to try and protect the poor individuals that they try to hurt so they can feel superior.
 
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