Universalism VS. Scripture

[Mailman Dan]

And this is yet a second consideration without any support in the Tanakh.

Thats not what you asked. I'm not as limited in my faith in scripture as you are, and I use the entire bible, so the mention of hell not being in the first few books doesn't bother me... You would be hard pressed to find "God loves you" in the exact same books.

However, there is ample proof that supports judgement. (The flood, that wiped out most of mankind, plagues in Egypt, destruction of Sodom...just to name a few) Therefor, punishment still exist within the limits of your faith.

Keep that in mind when you read the law. Even in the book of Exodus.

Exodus 20:7
“You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Have you ever used God's name as a curse word? If you have, the bible promised you'd be found guilty on the day of judgement.

“You shall not steal."

Ever stolen anything, reguardless of value?

If so, you'll also be found guilty.

“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Ever lied?

Guilty or not?

“You shall not covet "

Ever want anything that belonged to someone else?

God promised judgement when giving His law. Because your scripture views lack a payment for sin, what do you plan to do? As with universalist, the only way you can get around judgement is to deny the words it contains.


Dan~~~>knows all of the bible contains value, and uses it all for the basis of the Christian faith

 

[Athene]

Dan~~~>knows all of the bible contains value, and uses it all for the basis of the Christian faith

I'm confused, surely Christ and the teachings of Christ should be the basis of christian faith. If there's no Jesus then it's a book of words with no meaning.

 

[chokmah]

Thats not what you asked. I'm not as limited in my faith in scripture as you are, and I use the entire bible, so the mention of hell not being in the first few books doesn't bother me... You would be hard pressed to find "God loves you" in the exact same books.

You're not limited in a lot of things; however, this is not one of them. The 39 books of the Tanakh are quite complete in and of themselves without the "New" Testament.

And I can find a great deal of mention of G-d's love, grace, mercy, understanding, wisdom, knowledge, salvation, and so forth within the Tanakh.

However, there is ample proof that supports judgement. (The flood, that wiped out most of mankind, plagues in Egypt, destruction of Sodom...just to name a few) Therefor, punishment still exist within the limits of your faith.

Keep that in mind when you read the law. Even in the book of Exodus.

Exodus 20:7
“You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Have you ever used God's name as a curse word? If you have, the bible promised you'd be found guilty on the day of judgement.

“You shall not steal."

Ever stolen anything, reguardless of value?

If so, you'll also be found guilty.

“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Ever lied?

Guilty or not?

“You shall not covet "

Ever want anything that belonged to someone else?

God promised judgement when giving His law. Because your scripture views lack a payment for sin, what do you plan to do? As with universalist, the only way you can get around judgement is to deny the words it contains.


Dan~~~>knows all of the bible contains value, and uses it all for the basis of the Christian faith

At what point in time did I say that there is no punishment in the Tanakh? Don't try to put things into my mouth. There is ample punishment in the Tanakh; yet there is no mention of an "eternal hell". That's your problem; not mine.

 

[Mailman Dan]

There is ample punishment in the Tanakh; yet there is no mention of an "eternal hell"

Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.



Dan~~~>wonders if you believe in any kind of afterlife judgement

 

[Scholar in training]

At what point in time did I say that there is no punishment in the Tanakh? Don't try to put things into my mouth. There is ample punishment in the Tanakh; yet there is no mention of an "eternal hell". That's your problem; not mine.

I agree that punishment can be doled out in this life, but that doesn't preclude eternal "punishment". While the Calvinist's interpretation of hell is nowhere to be found in the Tanakh, there is also no mention of universalism as some liberal Christians interpret it.

 

[chokmah]

Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Contempt =/= Hell. Sorry.

Dan~~~>wonders if you believe in any kind of afterlife judgement

I'm not concerned about it. I believe there is an afterlife. Yet, it's G-d's decision on how it all plays out.

 

[chokmah]

I agree that punishment can be doled out in this life, but that doesn't preclude eternal "punishment". While the Calvinist's interpretation of hell is nowhere to be found in the Tanakh, there is also no mention of universalism as some liberal Christians interpret it.

The way it has been expressed to me is through the statement: "gathered to his fathers". This is stated with regard to Abraham and all the patriarchs. Therefore, there is some sort of afterlife; yet, I don't see a whole lot of segregation as is shown in the "New" Testament. BourbonFromHeaven has shared with me before that there is some idea of the "worst of the worst" getting some sort of punishment from G-d; yet, he even has stated that it is not overtly stated in Tanakh.

 

[Im_A]

The way it has been expressed to me is through the statement: "gathered to his fathers". This is stated with regard to Abraham and all the patriarchs. Therefore, there is some sort of afterlife; yet, I don't see a whole lot of segregation as is shown in the "New" Testament. BourbonFromHeaven has shared with me before that there is some idea of the "worst of the worst" getting some sort of punishment from G-d; yet, he even has stated that it is not overtly stated in Tanakh.

hmm, maybe it's because the Jews didn't feel the need to worry about quo say, competition and leave God to judge. (even tho i know passages out of the Old Testaments talks about the pagan people being killed.) but it just seems like now, Christians are worried about competition if you get my drift chokmah.

 

[chokmah]

hmm, maybe it's because the Jews didn't feel the need to worry about quo say, competition and leave God to judge. (even tho i know passages out of the Old Testaments talks about the pagan people being killed.) but it just seems like now, Christians are worried about competition if you get my drift chokmah.

I think that's a very good point, and it coincides with some thinking I was just doing.

Earlier in this thread someone said that, "No eternal punishment = no evangelization".

I find that to be rather interesting. It's the same logic applied to the "rapture".

The thing of it is: in Judaism, one is concerned with living life for today; nor the future. If one takes care of their daily considerations and fellow man; then tomorrow will pan out just fine.

I, personally, find that "eternal damnation" lends itself to exclusivist judgment. The fautly part to me with regard to how this affects "evangelization" is that Christianity, in its evangelical pull, completely disregards the feelings of those that they are "evangelizing". (This is my view for the majority; not all). In evangelizing of Jews, the predominant motivation is that "you're going to hell without Jesus!". Yet, there's no reason for the Jew to believe in Jesus the way he has been portrayed. And thus, the vicious cycle continues around and around. And the last thing that tends to be on people's minds during evangelizing is that the other person may be quite happy in the life they're leading. Therefore, leave them alone.

That's my soapbox for the day.

 

[Rev. Smith]

I think that's a very good point, and it coincides with some thinking I was just doing.

Earlier in this thread someone said that, "No eternal punishment = no evangelization".

I find that to be rather interesting. It's the same logic applied to the "rapture".

The thing of it is: in Judaism, one is concerned with living life for today; nor the future. If one takes care of their daily considerations and fellow man; then tomorrow will pan out just fine.

I, personally, find that "eternal damnation" lends itself to exclusivist judgment. The fautly part to me with regard to how this affects "evangelization" is that Christianity, in its evangelical pull, completely disregards the feelings of those that they are "evangelizing". (This is my view for the majority; not all). In evangelizing of Jews, the predominant motivation is that "you're going to hell without Jesus!". Yet, there's no reason for the Jew to believe in Jesus the way he has been portrayed. And thus, the vicious cycle continues around and around. And the last thing that tends to be on people's minds during evangelizing is that the other person may be quite happy in the life they're leading. Therefore, leave them alone.

That's my soapbox for the day.

Well said, but not all Christians feel the way our friend does. Jesus taught us to live now, that holiness consists of loving God and loving our neighbor. Indeed without the yoke of the Law, save the commandments which he "ratified" for us, we are free to live those simple truths. To me a lot of modern theology is the attempt to escape the difficult burden of actuially having to live our lives in service.

So I won't leave them alone, because I want them to know the good news, not the news that they can escape damnation - thats up to God. The news that they can live wonderful, sanctified happy lives doing somthing that actually matters, serving their brothers and sisters and their loving Father.

Cool

 

[Im_A]

Well said, but not all Christians feel the way our friend does. Jesus taught us to live now, that holiness consists of loving God and loving our neighbor. Indeed without the yoke of the Law, save the commandments which he "ratified" for us, we are free to live those simple truths. To me a lot of modern theology is the attempt to escape the difficult burden of actuially having to live our lives in service.

So I won't leave them alone, because I want them to know the good news, not the news that they can escape damnation - thats up to God. The news that they can live wonderful, sanctified happy lives doing somthing that actually matters, serving their brothers and sisters and their loving Father.

Cool

but there's one catch with this rev. at least that i see. take some hindu, living their life for the fellow man, and loving God with all their heart (i think most Christians see religions as searching for God the Father correct?) so here we have this hindu, non-Christian, doing the two greatest commandments of Christ, but yet we have th audacity to say, "your a sinner who is going to burn!" or we have the audacity to say, "your not loving the Father in its true sense."-just a nicer way of saying the former.

so where/what would you say the true distinction is?(just asking for your opinion, for i have mine as well )

 

[Rev. Smith]

but there's one catch with this rev. at least that i see. take some hindu, living their life for the fellow man, and loving God with all their heart (i think most Christians see religions as searching for God the Father correct?) so here we have this hindu, non-Christian, doing the two greatest commandments of Christ, but yet we have th audacity to say, "your a sinner who is going to burn!" or we have the audacity to say, "your not loving the Father in its true sense."-just a nicer way of saying the former.

so where/what would you say the true distinction is?(just asking for your opinion, for i have mine as well )

I expect to meet many a hindu, and buddhist and others in the Kingdom.

What did the Master say?

To have eternal life we must love God, love our neighbor and keep the commandments. The commandments are encapsulated in the beliefs of every religion I know of (even the satinists, who need somthing to reject). Do we douybt that the Hindus love God? Spend some time in Ole' Bombay anbd then tell me that (and before some wag points out that they are idoliters, study it - the 999 billion names of God means somthing (hint we have three).

I am the way the truth and the light, noone comes to the Father except through me. and I am a rightious Judge, I shall divide the sheep and the goats... Ok, so did Jesus want us to believe that only those who know his name get in. or those who follow HIM. Are we that Gnostic that we think its about knowing the password? I'm Christian not becasue I think there is no other way to God (St. Paul taught that that isn't true at Athens), but becasue it is the most complete.

 

[Im_A]

I expect to meet many a hindu, and buddhist and others in the Kingdom.

What did the Master say?

To have eternal life we must love God, love our neighbor and keep the commandments. The commandments are encapsulated in the beliefs of every religion I know of (even the satinists, who need somthing to reject). Do we douybt that the Hindus love God? Spend some time in Ole' Bombay anbd then tell me that (and before some wag points out that they are idoliters, study it - the 999 billion names of God means somthing (hint we have three).

I am the way the truth and the light, noone comes to the Father except through me. and I am a rightious Judge, I shall divide the sheep and the goats... Ok, so did Jesus want us to believe that only those who know his name get in. or those who follow HIM. Are we that Gnostic that we think its about knowing the password? I'm Christian not becasue I think there is no other way to God (St. Paul taught that that isn't true at Athens), but becasue it is the most complete.

i couldn't agree more Rev (you don't mind me calling you rev do you? i feel like a southerner when i say that, but i'm a mid-westerner haha. no offense to any southern americains )

 

[Mailman Dan]

Ok, so did Jesus want us to believe that only those who know his name get in. or those who follow HIM. Are we that Gnostic that we think its about knowing the password? I'm Christian not becasue I think there is no other way to God (St. Paul taught that that isn't true at Athens), but becasue it is the most complete.

I'm not sure if i'm reading this correctly....(i've been accused of misreading some things..)

Are you saying there are other ways, than through Christ, to get to heaven?

As a Rev, do you believe we can "earn" heaven through love, rather than repentance and faith in Christ as payment for sin?


Dan~~~>knows very well the core teachings of the RCC

 

[Mailman Dan]

So I won't leave them alone, because I want them to know the good news, not the news that they can escape damnation

I do disagree in part. The good news is that Jesus died for their sins. However, this doesn't make sence to someone who doesn't even know they have sinned.




1 Corinthians 1:18

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing...


That is true, because unless someone understands they have broken God's laws, then the good news doesn't make sence to them. Unless someone sees thet have broken God's laws, they don't understand they will face judgement.





Galatians 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


Give them God's law, and they can see they abide in His wrath...

Proverbs 16:6
.....by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.



It is, in fact, an understanding of God's justice, and fear of judgement that drive one to repent.


The bible warns all men to repent. It's important to show them why...





Dan~~~>suspects you already understand that

 

[chokmah]

Well said, but not all Christians feel the way our friend does. Jesus taught us to live now, that holiness consists of loving God and loving our neighbor. Indeed without the yoke of the Law, save the commandments which he "ratified" for us, we are free to live those simple truths. To me a lot of modern theology is the attempt to escape the difficult burden of actuially having to live our lives in service.

I can agree with that statement.

So I won't leave them alone, because I want them to know the good news, not the news that they can escape damnation - thats up to God. The news that they can live wonderful, sanctified happy lives doing somthing that actually matters, serving their brothers and sisters and their loving Father.

Cool

This latter part has already been brought up between you and t.s.; therefore, I won't continue on EXCEPT to say: your presentation is kinder than the average. However, I will still admonish you to look at it through your "evangelizees" eyes during the situation.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

I'm not sure if i'm reading this correctly....(i've been accused of misreading some things..)

Are you saying there are other ways, than through Christ, to get to heaven?

As a Rev, do you believe we can "earn" heaven through love, rather than repentance and faith in Christ as payment for sin?


Dan~~~>knows very well the core teachings of the RCC

The Rev is saying that following Christ is his path, my path, your path as it is for anyone that follows the teachings of Christ regardless of what they call it.

Kat~~~>wants to know if Dan knows enough about the RCC to know that the quite a difference between the RCC and Old Catholics.

 

[Rev. Smith]

The Rev is saying that following Christ is his path, my path, your path as it is for anyone that follows the teachings of Christ regardless of what they call it.

Kat~~~>wants to know if Dan knows enough about the RCC to know that the quite a difference between the RCC and Old Catholics.

What she said....

(Thanks Kat, couldn't have said it better myself)

 

[Im_A]

This latter part has already been brought up between you and t.s.; therefore, I won't continue on EXCEPT to say: your presentation is kinder than the average. However, I will still admonish you to look at it through your "evangelizees" eyes during the situation.

i think chokmah said something important for us Christians to adhere too.

this reminds me of doing unto others as you would do unto yourself. i know a lot of Christians would say, if they were believeing a lie, they would want the truth to be shoved at them, well i don't buy it, because we can see discussion just here in the liberal theology discussion to where liberals believe what they have to say is truth, but the conservatives don't like the way it is presented.

if we all learned to just live our lives as evangelization, maybe alter calls would mean something again, maybe there wouldn't be street preachers screaming at cars driving by, and maybe God's creation would be a bit closer to being unified.

 

[blessedmomof5]

Now i am not sure if these were mentioned before, to many pages to go through.....but just incase.....
the Lord is here to save the sinner not the righteous.....

Psalm 103:12 as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us. and will remember them no more....

Isaiah 44:22 I have swept away your offences like a cloud, your sins like the morning mist.

Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord

Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.

Hebrews 8:12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more. (Repeated in Jeremiah 31:34 and Hebrews 10:17.)

Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace (8) that he lavished on us . . .

Numbers 14:18-20 The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion.

Psalm 86:5 You are forgiving and good, O Lord, abounding in love to all who call to you.

Hebrews 10:17 Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”

Hebrews 10:17 Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”

Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world

Romans 11:27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

My favorite......
Psalm 103:12 as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.

and for you espiecially....

1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders (10) nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (11) And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. . . .”

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – (9) not by works, so that no one can boast.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come

Ephesians 4:24 . . . put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. John 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

Colossians 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.



Ephesians 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy (5) made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions – it is by grace you have been saved. (6) And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus (7) in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.



ok i could go on, but instead of looking at all the fire and brimstone, look at all he had to say about forgiving your sins.....and i could go on and on an on....
Jesus paided the price for my sin and yours, and we all fall short of the glory of god, and there is nothing you can do to change that, except to dig into the word of god not just the gloomy stuff, because he loves us......
In Christ
Denise