Universalism VS. Scripture

Lilly of the Valley · Sep 25, 2005

Robby said:
If god is love, and the devil is so bad, then why does god allow him to be unleashed upon us?

Robby~~~> thinking that it just don't add up!

Because He just does. Man has choices. If the devil wasn't around, then there'd be no choice to follow evil and such. If there was no devil, there'd be no evil. God wants us to choose Him, not just automatically get Him.

truegrace · Sep 25, 2005

Robby~~~> thinking that it just don't add up!

Lilly of the Valley said:
Because He just does.

Robby, now THERE is a well-thoughout answer: "He just does."

Don't think, Robby, just believe. Say it with me 3 times:

Don't think, just believe.
Don't think, just believe.
Don't think, just believe.

Just funnin', just funnin.'

truegrace

truegrace · Sep 25, 2005

Hey, folks, how about we take a look at just 2 verses and see how everyone interprets these:

For to this end we toil and struggle, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. - 1 Timothy 4:10

And we have seen and do testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world. - 1 John 4:14

1. Can Jesus be the Savior of all people if He does not save all people?

2. Can Jesus be the Savior of the world if He does not save the world?

3. Did Paul and John misunderstand what Jesus came to do?

truegrace

Lilly of the Valley · Sep 25, 2005

truegrace said:
Hey, folks, how about we take a look at just 2 verses and see how everyone interprets these:

For to this end we toil and struggle, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. - 1 Timothy 4:10

And we have seen and do testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world. - 1 John 4:14

1. Can Jesus be the Savior of all people if He does not save all people?

2. Can Jesus be the Savior of the world if He does not save the world?

3. Did Paul and John misunderstand what Jesus came to do?

truegrace

He is the savior to all/for all man, but it's up to you if you want to be saved. The Bible says few will make it on the narrow. Thus, few will make it into heaven.

He came to save the world and died for it, but you can reject it and people do.

No.

Charlie V · Sep 25, 2005

Lilly of the Valley said:
He is the savior to all/for all man, but it's up to you if you want to be saved.

If that's the case, He is NOT the savior for all men, He's the savior for the limited number who choose to be saved. You obviously don't see that your statement is self-contradictory. If He's the savior of ALL men--then either ALL men are saved, or He failed.

I don't believe He's the savior for those who choose to be saved. I believe, as scripture says, He's the savior of ALL men.

By the way--I assume you disbelieve that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord?

Charlie

truegrace · Sep 25, 2005

Lilly of the Valley said:
He is the savior to all/for all man, but it's up to you if you want to be saved. The Bible says few will make it on the narrow. Thus, few will make it into heaven.

He came to save the world and died for it, but you can reject it and people do.

No.

Thanks for the response, Lily.

Should Paul and John have stated that Jesus is the Savior of some people and of some of the world, seeing as most people and most of the world reject His lordship?

truegrace

Scholar in training · Sep 25, 2005

truegrace said:
Hey, folks, how about we take a look at just 2 verses and see how everyone interprets these:

For to this end we toil and struggle, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. - 1 Timothy 4:10

And we have seen and do testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world. - 1 John 4:14

1. Can Jesus be the Savior of all people if He does not save all people?

2. Can Jesus be the Savior of the world if He does not save the world?

3. Did Paul and John misunderstand what Jesus came to do?

I would resolve this by saying that Jesus' life and death were for all of humanity, but not all of humanity will accept it. You can't force someone to love you, and neither can God. Not everyone will act justly and love mercy and walk humbly with God. So, basically, I believe in universal atonement, but not universal salvation.

robby said:
If god is love, and the devil is so bad, then why does god allow him to be unleashed upon us?

Robby~~~> thinking that it just don't add up!

Can a person grow without adversity? I've never seen someone work hard in academic fields if they aren't thrown for a loop now and then.

Scholar in training · Sep 25, 2005

Charlie V said:
By the way--I assume you disbelieve that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord?

The demons believe - and tremble. Admitting that Jesus is Christ (as several demons are recorded to have done in the gospels) does not "save" one any more than having faith without works, faith being alone, does. But wait, some universalists do believe that the demons will be saved.

truegrace · Sep 25, 2005

Scholar in training said:
You can't force someone to love you, and neither can God. Not everyone will act justly and love mercy and walk humbly with God. So, basically, I believe in universal atonement, but not universal salvation.

Scholar, is it possible that God does not force us to love Him, but, rather, leads us to? The apostle John wrote that we love God, not because He forced us to, but because we came to see that He loves us. Is it possible that it is His kindness that leads us to repentance, not His omnipotent force?

Secondly, if you believe in universal atonement, do you believe in universal redemption?

truegrace

truegrace · Sep 25, 2005

Scholar in training said:
Admitting that Jesus is Christ (as several demons are recorded to have done in the gospels) does not "save" one any more than having faith without works, faith being alone, does.

Scholar, pure conjecture -- for all those whose knees are bowing to Christ and whose tongues are confessing Him, what do you think they are doing?

Are they doing this against their will? Are they being forced, perhaps as Hitler would have demanded allegiance?

truegrace

Scholar in training · Sep 25, 2005

truegrace said:
Scholar, is it possible that God does not force us to love Him, but, rather, leads us to? The apostle John wrote that we love God, not because He forced us to, but because we came to see that He loves us. Is it possible that it is His kindness that leads us to repentance, not His omnipotent force?

Not all people follow God's lead, some people call his kindness hatred or inactivity even in this life.

Secondly, if you believe in universal atonement, do you believe in universal redemption?

Define universal redemption.

Scholar in training · Sep 25, 2005

Scholar, pure conjecture -- for all those whose knees are bowing to Christ and whose tongues are confessing Him, what do you think they are doing?

Pure conjecture nothing. They are confessing him, but that doesn't equate to salvation. As I just pointed out, James said that even the demons believe, and tremble - as he was addressing Christians who believed that some people were made for faith, some for works. James' comparison in that context indicates that Christians must have both faith and works, that demons do not, and that drawing a line between the two inevitably results in unorthodox doctrine (much like the gnostics drew a line between visible matter and the invisible by saying that one was evil and the other good).

Are they doing this against their will?

I imagine not.

Are they being forced, perhaps as Hitler would have demanded allegiance?

truegrace · Sep 25, 2005

Scholar in training said:
Define universal redemption.

The concept that Jesus' blood, His atonement, purchased everyone from sin and death.

Since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. - Romans 3:23,24

He [Christ] entered once for all into the Holy Place, not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. - Hebrews 9:12

For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself a ransom for all this was attested at the right time. - 1 Timothy 2:5,6

But we do see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. - Hebrews 2:9

And he [Christ] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. - 1 John 2:2

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive opinions. They will even deny the Master who bought thembringing swift destruction on themselves. - 2 Peter 2:1

Univeral redemption means that Jesus died for all, for all sins, that He paid it all, and purchased mankind back from sin and death unto God.

truegrace

truegrace · Sep 25, 2005

Scholar in training said:
They are confessing him, but that doesn't equate to salvation.

Then how about this verse:

Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: "To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." - Isaiah 45:22,23

Isaiah seemed to think that such an event was the salvation of the ends of the earth.

The apostle Paul quotes Isaiah:

Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. - Philippians 2:9-11

All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him. - Psalms 22:27

All the nations you have made shall come and bow down before you, O Lord, and shall glorify your name. - Psalms 86:9

Now, just my opinion, but I don't think that it is too far a stretch to say that this verse might come into play here. After all, Christians have been using this as a "formula for salvation" for hundreds of years:
Because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. - Romans 10:9

truegrace

Charlie V · Sep 25, 2005

Scholar in training said:
The demons believe - and tremble. But wait, some universalists do believe that the demons will be saved.

Since that's a debatable question, whether or not demons will be saved, or even are literal beings--and since nobody here brought up demons--let's stick to discussing people. Just for the heck of it.

Personally, I don't think there's any such thing as literal physical beings called "demons." You probably disagree with me, but that's a completely different debate. Even if they did exist--I know of no scripture that describes them physically and says that they have knees, so there's no reason to think that the scripture that states "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess" applies to them.

If you want to discuss demon salvation, knock yourself out, talk about demon salvation, lepracaun salvation, gremlin salvation, ghost-and-goblin salvation--but it's all a straw man, as nothing I ever mentioned applies to the salvation of anybody but human beings.

Admitting that Jesus is Christ does not "save" one any more than having faith without works, faith being alone, does.

Of course it doesn't. It doesn't save a person any more than, say, a train ticket, or the reciept for a train ticket, brings you from New York to Boston.

The train brought you from New York to Boston. The ticket is the evidence that such a train ride occurred.

I never said that saying Jesus is Lord saves you. Of course it doesn't. Grace saves--no works, no beliefs--just grace and grace alone.

That grace saves, and the proof is the Holy Spirit.

No man can say Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Cor 12:3

Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 1 John 4:15

BillR · Sep 26, 2005

Lilly of the Valley said:
Because God said He doesn't lie and despises lying. And He's perfect, 100% perfection can't have imperfection.

Amen Lilly say it like it is.....

BillR · Sep 26, 2005

stumpjumper said:
Lily

Have you ever considered that perhaps the devil is an allegorical representation of evil.

Lilly has it right stump just because you don't believe in the devil he belives in you. The best thing he ever did was make everybody think he does't exist.

Lilly of the Valley · Sep 26, 2005

truegrace said:
Thanks for the response, Lily.

Should Paul and John have stated that Jesus is the Savior of some people and of some of the world, seeing as most people and most of the world reject His lordship?

truegrace

He is savior over the whole earth and for the whole earth, though people reject Him. I think Paul and John said it correct.

truegrace · Sep 26, 2005

Lilly of the Valley said:
He is savior over the whole earth and for the whole earth, though people reject Him. I think Paul and John said it correct.

I disagree with your parsing of words, Lily, and I suspect Paul and John would also. He is the Savior of the world and the Savior of all people, not over or for. He can't be the world's savior if He doesn't save the world. He can't be the savior of all people if He doesn't save all people. Simple logic. His title describes who He is and what He does, not what He might do or has the potential for doing.

And of course people reject Him. The Jewish leaders rejected Him. He forgave them, "for they knew not what they were doing." All His disciples rejected Him when He was arrested. Peter, who many hold to be the earliest leader of the church, denied Jesus three times. But did Jesus return in wrath after His resurrection to destroy this "Christ-rejecters" and "Christ-deniers"? No. He didn't even return and execute His wrath upon those who nailed Him to the cross.

I think, in the end, it is God's option to reject our rejection of Him. That is what true grace would do.

Nevertheless, what is really important is not what you or I might think. Jesus knows who He is and what He will do. I'll trust Him.

truegrace

Lilly of the Valley · Sep 26, 2005

truegrace said:
I disagree with your parsing of words, Lily, and I suspect Paul and John would also. He is the Savior of the world and the Savior of all people, not over or for. He can't be the world's savior if He doesn't save the world. He can't be the savior of all people if He doesn't save all people. Simple logic. His title describes who He is and what He does, not what He might do or has the potential for doing.

And of course people reject Him. The Jewish leaders rejected Him. He forgave them, "for they knew not what they were doing." All His disciples rejected Him when He was arrested. Peter, who many hold to be the earliest leader of the church, denied Jesus three times. But did Jesus return in wrath after His resurrection to destroy this "Christ-rejecters" and "Christ-deniers"? No. He didn't even return and execute His wrath upon those who nailed Him to the cross.

I think, in the end, it is God's option to reject our rejection of Him. That is what true grace would do.

Nevertheless, what is really important is not what you or I might think. Jesus knows who He is and what He will do. I'll trust Him.

truegrace

"He is the Savior of the world and the Savior of all people"

Yes, that's what I have been trying to say. Thank you!

Universalism VS. Scripture

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