Universalism VS. Scripture

[Scholar in training]

Good post. A few points about John 3:36, which also applies to other verses including John 3:16 and Romans 10:9.

A few points about the "blood atonement":

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Here we see that Jesus was willing to shed out his blood and pour it out for many people so that they would be forgiven.

Matthew 27:24-25
When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!" All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!"

The people were inadvertantly saying that Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for them.

Romans 3:22-25
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

This verse (and the context of redemption) clearly demonstrates that Jesus' took our place on the cross and beared our sin through his punishment.

Romans 5:9
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

We are justified by Christ's sacrifice and we are saved from God's wrath because Jesus has already undergone God's wrath for us. And again:

Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace. . .

Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Jesus' sacrificial atonement is what causes us to be reconciled to God.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Here is the direct statement that we are reconciled to God through Jesus' blood.

Hebrews 9:11-14
When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

Here is the cornerstone of the "blood atonement". Jesus offered himself unblemished to God as a sacrifice, in an expression of how guilty we are and how we deserve to suffer, just as animal sacrifice did under the Law.

Hebrews 9:18
This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.

See how important and sacred blood is in the covenant.

Hebrews 13:12
And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

We are made holy through Jesus' suffering.

Now, Charlie, how is your method of pulling prooftexts any different from this form of exegesis?

 

[Mailman Dan]

Looks like I missed *something* today. Ahh well...

The flaws in the system were built into the system by the Creator! When we claim ultimate authority, we are caliming something that is not even there. If the meaning of the Bible were written in stone, the Bible would be totally inapplicable. But, thank God, God created the Bible with all the contridictions and nuances that allows the Bible to speak to people 2000 years ago, 100 years ago, today, and even tomorrow.

Why would we want to limit God?

Flaws did not come from God, we put them there as humans. If we can not claim authority, then the claims of some that the bible is wrong on various subjects or in error is flawed from the start.

What happens is that we don't give God His authority, and we don't limit ourselves by saying His word is correct.

This allows us to use our own authority (which doesn't exist) to say some claims made in scripture that "some" believe came from God, are not true.

We limit God when we limit scripture, and claim parts are in error. Then on our own authority we alter to our personal taste what we see fit, as you just did, without authority or proof.

As I explained in another thread, yes, doing bad things can get you killed. Just as it is said that, "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword." This speaks of Earthly death, nothing more nor less.

Obviously thats not always true. People die doing good things. Much of scripture warns of judgement in the afterlife. To say that means "earthly life" in every (or any) case is likely out of context.

Rev 20:12-15
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Scripture warns of the dead being judged, and a day of accountability.

Dan~~~>not sure one can claim that's out of context

 

[Charlie V]

Obviously thats not always true. People die doing good things.

As I point out elsewhere, the exceptions don't disprove the rule.

I may correctly say that drunken driving leads to death but letting a sober person drive leads to life. Just because there are exceptions doesn't disprove the rule.

Much of scripture warns of judgement in the afterlife.

Few universalists would disagree with that statement. It's only the duration of the correction with which most universalists would disagree with those who deny God's promise of universal salvation.

To say that means "earthly life" in every (or any) case is likely out of context.

When have I ever said "in every case?"

In "any" case, you say in parentheses? You mean "life" always means "afterlife" and never means "Earthly life"? No, to say that "life" means "earthly life" in any individual case does not mean it's "likely out of context." It's only out of context if it can be demonstrated by the verses immediately preceding or following the verse in question that a particular word or phrase actually is being takenout of context. This is by the very definition of the word "context."

Actually, in some cases, the word "life" means neither our Earthly existance nor our existance in the afterlife. Sometimes it refers to the zest and zeal of a fulfilled life, as in the sentence "I feel so full of life!" This is sometimes the case with the word "life" in the English translations of the Bible. Further, in Greek or Hebrew, the words translated sometimes have shades of meaning which don't even translate into the English properly. Each case must be examined individually.

I might add that, in English, sometimes "Life" is just a magazine. Or a board game. Or a cereal that Mikey likes.

Rev 20:12-15
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Scripture warns of the dead being judged, and a day of accountability.

Dan~~~>not sure one can claim that's out of context

I've already given an interpretation of that passage. The explaination didn't mention context. Here it is, once again.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html#29
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]THE SECOND DEATH.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"But the fearful, ant unbelieving, and the; abominable, and murderer, and whoremonger, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death."--Rev. xxi:8[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand befgore God'; and the; books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in those books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead that were in them, and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."--Rev. xx:12-14.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Popularly "hell" and the "lake of fire and brimstone" are the same thing; but it is seen, as we read the description in Revelation, that they are entirely different. In chap. xx, verses 13 and 14, it is said that "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There are four opinions as to what the second death is. 1. Some suppose it refers to those who, having once been dead in trespasses and sins, have become quickened into newness of life, and then have returned to their wicked ways. 2. Others apply it to the apostasy of the Christian church. 3. Others to the second destruction or death of the Jewish people, which soon occurred. 4. Others refer it to the endless torment of the soul after death.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This last view is evidently incorrect, for a man's death in trespasses and sins is the first death, the dissolution of the body is the second death, and the endless torment of the soul would be the third death, if the term death were allowable. But it bears no resemblance to death, and if such a fate were in store for any it could not be called death.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The first, second, or third opinion may be adopted. Jude describes those who were "twice dead, plucked up by the roots." Such are all who have once been good, and who have fallen into evil ways.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We favor the first or third view indicated above; but whichever view we take, the popular one has no warrant in the language employed.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The careful reader of the book of Revelation will see that this second death is a temporal destruction to befall the Jewish nation soon after the book was written. The Apocalypse was written just before Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. It had once before been laid waste. The Jewish nation had lost its national life, and now it was to pass through a similar experience, undergo a second death, which it did when Titus (A.D.70) overwhelmed the people, and inflicted national death on the Jews. The first death lasted seventy years, the captivity in Babylon; the second has lasted now eighteen centuries, and justifies the term everlasting.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The first death is described by the prophet Ezekiel, chap. xxxvii:12-14: "Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God: Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves. And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land; then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord."[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The second death was when the Jews were again extinguished as a nation. The revelator declares it was to be very soon.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly."--Rev. xxii"12,20.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus thus announces the same event: "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."--Matt. xxiv:30.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]John says: "Behold, he cometh with clouds;" Jesus says: "The Son of man cometh in the clouds of heaven;" John: "And all the kindred of the earth shall wail because of him;" Jesus: "And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn."[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In Rev. xxi:8, the same idea is taught. "The fearful, unbelieving," etc., are to be burned in "the lake of fire, and this is the second death." The lake of fire denotes the fearful judgments of those days during which the Jews experienced their second death. Or, it may be used as a figure, and denote the idea marked "1" above.[/font]

Charlie

 

[elman]

As I point out elsewhere, the exceptions don't disprove the rule.

I may correctly say that drunken driving leads to death but letting a sober person drive leads to life. Just because there are exceptions doesn't disprove the rule.



Few universalists would disagree with that statement. It's only the duration of the correction with which most universalists would disagree with those who deny God's promise of universal salvation.




When have I ever said "in every case?"

In "any" case, you say in parentheses? You mean "life" always means "afterlife" and never means "Earthly life"? No, to say that "life" means "earthly life" in any individual case does not mean it's "likely out of context." It's only out of context if it can be demonstrated by the verses immediately preceding or following the verse in question that a particular word or phrase actually is being takenout of context. This is by the very definition of the word "context."

Actually, in some cases, the word "life" means neither our Earthly existance nor our existance in the afterlife. Sometimes it refers to the zest and zeal of a fulfilled life, as in the sentence "I feel so full of life!" This is sometimes the case with the word "life" in the English translations of the Bible. Further, in Greek or Hebrew, the words translated sometimes have shades of meaning which don't even translate into the English properly. Each case must be examined individually.

I might add that, in English, sometimes "Life" is just a magazine. Or a board game. Or a cereal that Mikey likes.



I've already given an interpretation of that passage. The explaination didn't mention context. Here it is, once again.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html#29
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]THE SECOND DEATH.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"But the fearful, ant unbelieving, and the; abominable, and murderer, and whoremonger, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death."--Rev. xxi:8[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand befgore God'; and the; books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in those books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead that were in them, and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."--Rev. xx:12-14.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Popularly "hell" and the "lake of fire and brimstone" are the same thing; but it is seen, as we read the description in Revelation, that they are entirely different. In chap. xx, verses 13 and 14, it is said that "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There are four opinions as to what the second death is. 1. Some suppose it refers to those who, having once been dead in trespasses and sins, have become quickened into newness of life, and then have returned to their wicked ways. 2. Others apply it to the apostasy of the Christian church. 3. Others to the second destruction or death of the Jewish people, which soon occurred. 4. Others refer it to the endless torment of the soul after death.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This last view is evidently incorrect, for a man's death in trespasses and sins is the first death, the dissolution of the body is the second death, and the endless torment of the soul would be the third death, if the term death were allowable. But it bears no resemblance to death, and if such a fate were in store for any it could not be called death.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The first, second, or third opinion may be adopted. Jude describes those who were "twice dead, plucked up by the roots." Such are all who have once been good, and who have fallen into evil ways.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We favor the first or third view indicated above; but whichever view we take, the popular one has no warrant in the language employed.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The careful reader of the book of Revelation will see that this second death is a temporal destruction to befall the Jewish nation soon after the book was written. The Apocalypse was written just before Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. It had once before been laid waste. The Jewish nation had lost its national life, and now it was to pass through a similar experience, undergo a second death, which it did when Titus (A.D.70) overwhelmed the people, and inflicted national death on the Jews. The first death lasted seventy years, the captivity in Babylon; the second has lasted now eighteen centuries, and justifies the term everlasting.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The first death is described by the prophet Ezekiel, chap. xxxvii:12-14: "Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God: Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves. And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land; then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord."[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The second death was when the Jews were again extinguished as a nation. The revelator declares it was to be very soon.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly."--Rev. xxii"12,20.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus thus announces the same event: "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."--Matt. xxiv:30.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]John says: "Behold, he cometh with clouds;" Jesus says: "The Son of man cometh in the clouds of heaven;" John: "And all the kindred of the earth shall wail because of him;" Jesus: "And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn."[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In Rev. xxi:8, the same idea is taught. "The fearful, unbelieving," etc., are to be burned in "the lake of fire, and this is the second death." The lake of fire denotes the fearful judgments of those days during which the Jews experienced their second death. Or, it may be used as a figure, and denote the idea marked "1" above.[/font]

Charlie

The first death is the death of our soul when we kill it by being unloving. Ezekiel 18. The second death is the spiritual death of the wicked after physical death which is a death from which there is no resurrection.

 

[Mailman Dan]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The careful reader of the book of Revelation will see that this second death is a temporal destruction to befall the Jewish nation soon after the book was written.[/font]

Tentmakers has to do some real "flexing" of the Word to make that happen, and they know it. They also claim the text is just wrong as written...

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This last view is evidently incorrect, for a man's death in trespasses and sins is the first death, the dissolution of the body is the second death, and the endless torment of the soul would be the third death, if the term death were allowable. [/font]

Scripture says what the second death is, and Tent makers web site doesn't agree. Which one do you base your faith on?


Dan~~~>trust the text far more...for obvious reasons

 

[Charlie V]

Tentmakers has to do some real "flexing" of the Word to make that happen, and they know it. They also claim the text is just wrong as written...

Not quite.

That book was written in the 1890s by J.W. Hansen DD.
It wasn't written by the authors of www.tentmaker.org

His examination of the verse was sound exegesis by a Doctor of Divinity. Your dismissal of it had no substance.

Charlie

 

[ballfan]

This last view is evidently incorrect, for a man's death in trespasses and sins is the first death, the dissolution of the body is the second death, and the endless torment of the soul would be the third death, if the term death were allowable.

They're at odds with what is actually written in the bible. They get messed up when they come to the conclusion the dissolution of the body being the second death. The reason being that they cannot grasp the full meaning of these verses.

Joh 8:51

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Joh 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

Joh 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

Abraham and the prophets were not dead as Jesus goes on to explain.

 

[elman]

They're at odds with what is actually written in the bible. They get messed up when they come to the conclusion the dissolution of the body being the second death. The reason being that they cannot grasp the full meaning of these verses.




Abraham and the prophets were not dead as Jesus goes on to explain.

They were not dead spiritually. They were dead physically.

 

[katallasso]

"And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, come and see. And I looked, and lo a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth" (Rev. 6:7-8). There is a special significance to be attached to the description of the fourth horseman -- he whose name is Death -- and Hell followed with him. Death and Hell are specially linked in the Revelation. And since Christ came and abolished death (II Tim. 1:10) and destroyed him that had the power of death, that is, the devil (Heb. 2:14), He now boldly proclaims: "I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the KEYS OF HELL AND OF DEATH" (Rev. 1:18). And since the Christ now possesses both hell and death neither of them ride anywhere except by His authority. This horse is given power over the fourth part of the earth-realm, to kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. This "fourth part of the earth" is clearly that portion of earthiness not already dealt with by the three preceding horses. It speaks of the conclusion, consummation and termination of the process. It means the final subjugation and destruction of everything within us that is contrary to HIS life and kingdom. And all the instruments necessary to accomplish this are in His hands and at His command.


There is an amazing and significant statement in the passage that we do not want to miss. "And power was given unto Him to kill...with death." To kill with DEATH! How does one kill with death? What can this cryptic statement mean? To kill with death means a death by death. Later on in the book of Revelation the same truth is presented thus: "Death and hell were cast into the lake of Fire. This is the second death" (Rev. 20:14). Now let us turn this around for clarity. "The second death IS death and hell cast into the lake of fire." Therefore we have exactly the same meaning either way it is stated. What is the second death? It is the first death and hell cast into the lake of fire! "Our God is a consuming fire." This fact is extremely IMPORTANT. The second death is not merely the lake of fire. Nor is the second death men being tortured forever in the lake of fire. The Holy Spirit has made it very simple and plain. The second death is the first death and hell CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. Can we now open the eyes of our understanding to see that everything cast into the lake of fire pertains to DEATH? Death itself is cast into the lake of fire. Hell, the realm of the dead, is cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, i.e. those who are dead, in trespasses and in sins, who inhabit hell, are cast into the lake of fire. That is the end of death and hell and sin and sinners, for God shall destroy the whole realm of death in the lake of fire. He shall burn up hell in the lake of fire, He shall destroy death in the lake of fire, and He shall consume sin in the lake of fire. How I long to see the end of sin and death and hell! The time is coming, praise His name! God's Kingdom shall rule over all and God Himself shall be All-in-all. There shall be neither sin, nor sinners, nor death, nor hell. It is clear that God does not destroy men in the lake of fire, nowhere does it say that, for that would be a contradiction of terms. How can you destroy death by creating death? How can you abolish death by bringing men under the power of eternal death from which there is no escape? Oh, no, it is not men who are destroyed in the lake of fire -- it is sin and death and hell that are destroyed. "And the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (I Cor. 15:26). "And there shall be no more death: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4). Thus, the lake of fire is nothing more nor less than THE DEATH OF DEATH! "And power was given unto them to kill...with death. " 0, the wonder of it!

The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm. Because -- the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe. Death came as an enemy, the fruitage of an act of disobedience that turned man away from God and into the realm of carnality, minding self and flesh. Now God makes death overcome itself. It is by death that death is rendered powerless, and there arises an upspringing, a new life. It takes death to destroy death, and thus Christ 'did taste death for every man' --'that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage' (Heb. 2:9, 14-15). Since we are all under the effects of the first death, it is appointed unto us to die once more -- not physical death, we are already in a state of mortality -- but now a dying out to this present death state. We conquer this death of the carnal mind by dying to it -- only God could use such a process bringing victory and praise to God. He is destroying the first death with the second death! end quote

 

[loriersea]

As a spin-off to the question of why liberal Christianity in general seems to evoke so much anger in people, I'm wondering specifically, reading through this thread, why universalism is so threatening to people? Isn't the idea that all people will be reconciled to God a joyous one? Shouldn't those who aren't universalists be praying every day that universalism will be true? Why do people go to such lengths to support and even celebrate the idea that the vast majority of all humankind will be horrifically tortured for all eternity? Shouldn't we rebel against that idea with everything we have, if we accept it as true, just based on our capacity for empathy?

I guess I just cannot understand why anyone would want to deny universalism. How else could the Gospel be good news, since there is nothing "good" about the vast majority of the world's people being tortured for eternity?

 

[ahab]

Hi Loriersea,

Great questions!

Isn't the idea that all people will be reconciled to God a joyous one?

yes but I would say that any idea that anyone should have eternal life or be reconciled to God is a joyous one.

Shouldn't those who aren't universalists be praying every day that universalism will be true?

Not if they dont believe its true, they will be praying for all who are universalists.

Why do people go to such lengths to support and even celebrate the idea that the vast majority of all humankind will be horrifically tortured for all eternity?

I dont think anyone celebrates it but to support the idea becaue they believe its true. After all if we ignore all Jesus taught we wouldnt have any eternal life through Him either. So there is in a sense no great loss.
I only started to believe in eternal life through Jesus when I started to believe in eternal death without Him.

Shouldn't we rebel against that idea with everything we have, if we accept it as true, just based on our capacity for empathy?

But thats our capacity, can our capacity actually save everyone to eternal life, I thought that was the whole point of Jesus?

How else could the Gospel be good news, since there is nothing "good" about the vast majority of the world's people being tortured for eternity?

The good news is that God does love us so much that Jesus has made the way to eternal life.
Where did the idea of the world's population having eternal life and being reconciled to God come from?
As I say, I didnt necessarily believe in eternal life or erternal death until I believed in Jesus, then it was eternal life that attracted me.

peace

 

[ottaia]

As a spin-off to the question of why liberal Christianity in general seems to evoke so much anger in people, I'm wondering specifically, reading through this thread, why universalism is so threatening to people? Isn't the idea that all people will be reconciled to God a joyous one? Shouldn't those who aren't universalists be praying every day that universalism will be true? Why do people go to such lengths to support and even celebrate the idea that the vast majority of all humankind will be horrifically tortured for all eternity? Shouldn't we rebel against that idea with everything we have, if we accept it as true, just based on our capacity for empathy?

I guess I just cannot understand why anyone would want to deny universalism. How else could the Gospel be good news, since there is nothing "good" about the vast majority of the world's people being tortured for eternity?

I am with you on this! If we can forgive, and we can. And we are made in the image of God, and we are. THen God can forgive. If we can forgive even when the person has not repented, and we do, then God who is greater than us, and God is, can certainly forgive so much more than we can. Makes perfect sense to me. So either we are made in God's image or we aren't. God is either greater than us or God is not. Which will people choose?

 

[Charlie V]

I only started to believe in eternal life through Jesus when I started to believe in eternal death without Him.

That's interesting. It was the belief in eternal hell which nearly drove me away from Christianity, and the faith in His promise of universal salvation that brought me back to Him.

What did you believe before you believed in "eternal death"? In universal salvation?

Where did the idea of the world's population having eternal life and being reconciled to God come from?

First, from God, from His Holy Spirit.
Second, from the scriptures.

Charlie

 

[Scholar in training]

That's interesting. It was the belief in eternal hell which nearly drove me away from Christianity, and the faith in His promise of universal salvation that brought me back to Him.

This is sad to hear, but not surprising given the interpretation of hell you once believed in. Hell, as I mentioned to you once, is not about eternal torture, but eternal shame. In that sense, any "torture" that may occur would be self-inflicted.

 

[Charlie V]

This is sad to hear, but not surprising given the interpretation of hell you once believed in. Hell, as I mentioned to you once, is not about eternal torture, but eternal shame. In that sense, any "torture" that may occur would be self-inflicted.

Eternal shame? Well, that's good news of great joy which shall be for all people.

I was curious, so I did a blueletterbible search.

Sorry! the words eternal shame don't occur together in the KJV.

The closest to that description seems to be Daniel 12:2, which I've meant to do some exegesis on (still plan to when I have time.)

Of course, that doesn't sound like the descriptions most naysayers of universal salvation give -- such as the parable of the rich man and Abraham, or the lake of fire, which I've posted extensive exegesis on in the past.

And if anyone has "everlasting shame," certainly, that would contradict the many passages I've posted in the past promising universal salvation.

Charlie

 

[Scholar in training]

Eternal shame? Well, that's good news of great joy which shall be for all people.

I think that the Bible's many statements about reciprocity support the doctrine of everlasting shame.

I was curious, so I did a blueletterbible search.

Sorry! the words eternal shame don't occur together in the KJV.

The word "Trinity" never appears in the Bible either; it is a good thing that the Bible was written in a high-context culture.

I was not thinking specifically of Daniel 12:2, but it does fit the doctrine well:

"[font=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][size=+1][font=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][size=+0]Biblical passages support our thesis: Daniel 12:2 speaks not of everlasting pain, but of disgrace and everlasting contempt. The 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' associated with punishment verses 'describes a reaction of persons who have been publicly shamed or dishonored' (Malina and Rohrbaugh, Social Science Commentary, 76, emphasis added). Miller says of the passage in Luke, of the beggar Lazarus and the rich man: [The rich man's] '[/size][/font][/size][/font][font=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][size=+1][font=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][size=+0]quality of life' is equated to the quality of life that the beggar Lazarus had during his lifetime (e.g. lack of getting all of his basic needs met in community). Note that a beggar was a person of the lowest social status, and therefore one of the most 'shamed' individuals. [/size][/font][/size][/font]
[font=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][size=+1][font=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][size=+0]We may relate this point to that of the doctrine of theosis. Those who belong to God will grow in His grace; but those who reject him will never grow. Like Lewis' Napoleon, this will no doubt be a frustrating and shameful experience; especially if you can look through the window, so to speak, and see others growing. But it will not involve physical pain."[/size][/font][/size][/font]

Note the difference: these passages are still applied to the doctrine of hell, but in such a way that it matches the social data and mindset present in the ANE (Ancient Near East).

Of course, that doesn't sound like the descriptions most naysayers of universal salvation give -- such as the parable of the rich man and Abraham, or the lake of fire, which I've posted extensive exegesis on in the past.

Unfortunately, many Christians who believe in hell are as unaware of the social reasons for the doctrine of everlasting shame as universalists are.

And if anyone has "everlasting shame," certainly, that would contradict the many passages I've posted in the past promising universal salvation.

One or the other is wrong.

 

[ahab]

Hi Charlie V,

That's interesting. It was the belief in eternal hell which nearly drove me away from Christianity, and the faith in His promise of universal salvation that brought me back to Him.

Why would the belief in eternal hell drive you away from Christianity? The whole point about Jesus is life for us through His death and resurrection. If eternal hell drove you away from Christianity what did you believe before you ‘came’ to Christianity?

What did you believe before you believed in "eternal death"? In universal salvation?

Neither eternal life nor eternal death. I wondered at times and philosophised about it, but I didn't believe anything exactly.

First, from God, from His Holy Spirit. Second, from the scriptures.

Jesus said He is the resurection and the life.

peace

 

[ahab]

Hi scholar in waiting,

I think that the Bible's many statements about reciprocity support the doctrine of everlasting shame.

I am not sure quite what why you are trying to pick out just shame that we are saved and set free from or try and replace the idea of eternal life and death with it. Our guilt and shame John 16, Hebrews 10, 1 Peter 2:6, Rom 9 & 10.
"For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame" Isaiah 28
"let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water"
I agree with you that the Bible supports the idea of shame and guilt but it also siupports the idea of eternal death/punishment/hell etc. as has been shown with so many references.

peace

 

[ottaia]

Scholar, "disgrace and everlasting contempt" that sounds so much more loving than eternal torture. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Charlie V]

Hi Charlie V,


Why would the belief in eternal hell drive you away from Christianity? The whole point about Jesus is life for us through His death and resurrection. If eternal hell drove you away from Christianity what did you believe before you ‘came’ to Christianity?

Because of compassion. If there is an eternal hell, there can be no heaven for me, because if I go to heaven I will spend eternity crying with compassion and raging with frustration and horror for the other people suffering in hell.

Because if there is an eternal hell where people suffer (however you define "suffering," shame, torment, what have you) it means either God is not all-loving (he hates someone enough to let them be tormented forever without giving them a moment of mercy) or God is not all-powerful (he is completely helpless and unable to save some people, weak in that respect.)

Because the Truth and the glorious good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ is that He is the savior of all men, who will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Now, let me return the question:

Why would universal salvation drive you away from Christianity?


Charlie