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Universalism: pros and cons

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Joykins

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See, that question can be asked from another perspective:

Who was Jonah to disagree with God's mercy?

This brings to mind the end of Job--no satisfactory answers are given yet after it all you feel ashamed of having the question...

The grace and mercy alongside the judgment of God present a paradox.

Jacob wrestled with God; Abraham bargained with God. These were among the most blessed of the patriarchs. Noah saw the whole earth punished for wickedness; Jonah saw wickedness forgiven and complained at the unfairness of it all.

What can we make of this God? He is so much like a person.
 
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Floatingaxe

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This brings to mind the end of Job--no satisfactory answers are given yet after it all you feel ashamed of having the question...

The grace and mercy alongside the judgment of God present a paradox.

Jacob wrestled with God; Abraham bargained with God. These were among the most blessed of the patriarchs. Noah saw the whole earth punished for wickedness; Jonah saw wickedness forgiven and complained at the unfairness of it all.

What can we make of this God? He is so much like a person.


God is a person!
 
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Here are just a few Scriptures. This is just Part I, since it goes beyond the character-limit for posts. I'll put Part II in a separate post:

Gen 12:3 And in you [Abraham] all the families of the earth will be blessed.

Gen 22:18 And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice. [This promise is repeated over and over throughout scripture.]

Num 14:20 So the Lord said [speaking to Moses, who is a foretype of Christ as our intercessor], "I have pardoned them according to your word; but indeed, as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord."

II Sam14:14 For we shall surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away life, but plans ways so that the banished one may not be cast out from him.

I Kings 8:43 Hear Thou in heaven Thy dwelling place, and do according to all for which the foreigner calls to Thee, in order that all the peoples of the earth may know Thy name, to fear Thee, as do Thy people Israel, and that they may know that this house which I [Solomon] have built is called by Thy name.

I Kings 8:60 So that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God; there is no one else.

II Kings19:19 That all the kingdoms of the earth may know that Thou alone, O Lord, art God.

I Chron 16:34 O give thanks to the Lord, for He is good; For His mercy (lovingkindness, NAS) endureth forever.

II Chron 20;21 Give thanks to the Lord, for His mercy endureth forever.

Ps 9:7-8 But the Lord abides forever; He has established His throne for judgment, and He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute (minister, KJ) judgment for [not against] the peoples with equity.

Ps 22:27-30 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will worship before Thee. For the kingdom is the Lord's, and He rules over the nations. All the proud [literally, "fat ones"] of the earth will eat and worship, even he who cannot keep his soul alive. Posterity will serve Him.

Ps 30:5 For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime; Weeping may last for the night, but a shout of joy comes in the morning.

Ps 33:8 Let all the earth fear the Lord; let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.

Ps 46:10 Cease striving [be still] and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations; I will be exalted in the earth.

Ps 65:2,5 To Thee all men [lit. all flesh] come...Thou who art the trust of all the ends of the earth and of the farthest sea.

Ps 66:1,4 Shout joyfully to God, all the earth...All the earth will worship Thee, and will sing praises to Thee; they will sing praises to Thy name.

Ps 67:1-7 God be gracious to us and bless us, and cause His face to shine upon us, that Thy way may be known on the earth, Thy salvation among all nations...Let all the peoples praise Thee. Let the nations be glad...for Thou wilt judge the peoples with uprightness, and guide the nations on the earth...that all the ends of the earth may fear Him.

Ps 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, Thou hast led captive Thy captives; Thou hast given gifts among men, even among the rebellious also, that the Lord God may dwell there.

Ps 69:34 Let heaven and earth praise Him, the seas and everything that moves in them.

Ps 72:8-19 May He also rule from sea to sea, and from the river to the ends of the earth...and let all kings bow down before Him, all nations serve Him...Let all nations call Him blessed...And may the whole earth be filled with His glory. Amen and Amen.

Ps 86:9 All nations whom Thou hast made shall come and worship before Thee, O Lord; And they shall glorify Thy name.

Ps 96:1-12 Sing to the Lord, all the earth...His wonderful deeds among all the peoples...Tremble before Him, all the earth...Then all the trees of the forest will sing for joy before the Lord, for He is coming...

Ps 98:3,4 All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God. Shout joyfully to the Lord, all the earth; break forth and sing for joy and sing praises.

Ps 145:9-10 The Lord is good to all, and His mercies are over all His works. All Thy works shall give thanks to Thee, O Lord, and Thy godly ones shall bless Thee.

Ps 145:14-16 The Lord sustains all who fall, and raises up all who are bowed down. The eyes of all look to Thee, and Thou dost give them their food in due time. Thou dost open Thy hand, and dost satisfy the desire of every living thing.

Ps 145:21 And all flesh will bless His holy name forever and ever.

Ps 150:6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Praise the Lord!

Is 19:21 Thus the Lord will make Himself known to Egypt, and the Egyptians will know the Lord in that day. They will even worship with sacrifice and offering, and will make a vow to the Lord and perform it.

Is 19:22 And the Lord will strike Egypt, striking but healing; so they will return to the Lord, and He will respond to them and will heal them.

Is 25:6-8 And the Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain [Mount Zion]...and on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, even the veil which is stretched over all nations. He will swallow up death for all time, and the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces.

Is 26:9 For when the earth experiences Thy judgments, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

Is 40:5 Then the glory of the Lord will be revealed, and all flesh will see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

Is 45:22-23 Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Is 53:6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him.

Is 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory.

Is 66:23 All mankind will come to bow down before Me, says the Lord.

Lam 3:31-32 For the Lord will not reject forever, for if He causes grief, then He will have compassion according to His abundant lovingkindness.

Daniel 7:27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.

Micah 4:6-7 "In that day," declares the Lord, "I will assemble the lame, and gather the outcasts, even those whom I have afflicted. I will make the lame a remnant, and the outcasts a strong nation, and the Lord will reign over them in Mount Zion from now on and forever.

Micah 7:18-19 Who is a God like Thee, who pardons iniquity and passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in unchanging love. He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities underfoot. Yes, Thou wilt cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.



To Be Continued ....




______________________________





"For as in Adam all die,





so in Christ all will be made alive."





~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~




Thankyou Chaela....for those wonderfull insights...yes the greater body of evidence all points in the same direction.....

Peace
 
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Zecryphon

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I'm referring to freewill to accept it or reject it when offered. I'm not saying that we can choose or orchestrate in any way to save ourselves.

God would have all to be saved. But not all want to be saved by Him.

How many times have you heard folks say "if that's the God you serve, then I don't want to be saved" because they disagree with His Judgment?
"I'm referring to freewill to accept it or reject it when offered. I'm not saying that we can choose or orchestrate in any way to save ourselves."

But by yourself, as you are prior to salvation, in your unregenerated state, you do not have freewill in the area of salvation. You have a bound will. You can only act according to the sinful nature, which does not seek after God or anything Holy. It's when God gives you a measure of faith, that you have the ability to choose. God acts, you react. People throw this freewill statement regarding salvation as if it's scripturally supported. I have never seen scriptural support for this and that's why I asked you where the verses were that supported it.

"How many times have you heard folks say "if that's the God you serve, then I don't want to be saved" because they disagree with His Judgment?"

Many times. My own personal opinion is that at their core they're idolators. They don't want that God that you talk about or that is revealed in the scriptures. They want a god fo their own making, that likes everything they like and hates everything they hate.
 
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Zecryphon

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Here are just a few Scriptures. This is just Part I, since it goes beyond the character-limit for posts. I'll put Part II in a separate post:

Gen 12:3 And in you [Abraham] all the families of the earth will be blessed.

Gen 22:18 And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice. [This promise is repeated over and over throughout scripture.]

Num 14:20 So the Lord said [speaking to Moses, who is a foretype of Christ as our intercessor], "I have pardoned them according to your word; but indeed, as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord."

II Sam14:14 For we shall surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away life, but plans ways so that the banished one may not be cast out from him.

I Kings 8:43 Hear Thou in heaven Thy dwelling place, and do according to all for which the foreigner calls to Thee, in order that all the peoples of the earth may know Thy name, to fear Thee, as do Thy people Israel, and that they may know that this house which I [Solomon] have built is called by Thy name.

I Kings 8:60 So that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God; there is no one else.

II Kings19:19 That all the kingdoms of the earth may know that Thou alone, O Lord, art God.

I Chron 16:34 O give thanks to the Lord, for He is good; For His mercy (lovingkindness, NAS) endureth forever.

II Chron 20;21 Give thanks to the Lord, for His mercy endureth forever.

Ps 9:7-8 But the Lord abides forever; He has established His throne for judgment, and He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute (minister, KJ) judgment for [not against] the peoples with equity.

Ps 22:27-30 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will worship before Thee. For the kingdom is the Lord's, and He rules over the nations. All the proud [literally, "fat ones"] of the earth will eat and worship, even he who cannot keep his soul alive. Posterity will serve Him.

Ps 30:5 For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime; Weeping may last for the night, but a shout of joy comes in the morning.

Ps 33:8 Let all the earth fear the Lord; let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.

Ps 46:10 Cease striving [be still] and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations; I will be exalted in the earth.

Ps 65:2,5 To Thee all men [lit. all flesh] come...Thou who art the trust of all the ends of the earth and of the farthest sea.

Ps 66:1,4 Shout joyfully to God, all the earth...All the earth will worship Thee, and will sing praises to Thee; they will sing praises to Thy name.

Ps 67:1-7 God be gracious to us and bless us, and cause His face to shine upon us, that Thy way may be known on the earth, Thy salvation among all nations...Let all the peoples praise Thee. Let the nations be glad...for Thou wilt judge the peoples with uprightness, and guide the nations on the earth...that all the ends of the earth may fear Him.

Ps 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, Thou hast led captive Thy captives; Thou hast given gifts among men, even among the rebellious also, that the Lord God may dwell there.

Ps 69:34 Let heaven and earth praise Him, the seas and everything that moves in them.

Ps 72:8-19 May He also rule from sea to sea, and from the river to the ends of the earth...and let all kings bow down before Him, all nations serve Him...Let all nations call Him blessed...And may the whole earth be filled with His glory. Amen and Amen.

Ps 86:9 All nations whom Thou hast made shall come and worship before Thee, O Lord; And they shall glorify Thy name.

Ps 96:1-12 Sing to the Lord, all the earth...His wonderful deeds among all the peoples...Tremble before Him, all the earth...Then all the trees of the forest will sing for joy before the Lord, for He is coming...

Ps 98:3,4 All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God. Shout joyfully to the Lord, all the earth; break forth and sing for joy and sing praises.

Ps 145:9-10 The Lord is good to all, and His mercies are over all His works. All Thy works shall give thanks to Thee, O Lord, and Thy godly ones shall bless Thee.

Ps 145:14-16 The Lord sustains all who fall, and raises up all who are bowed down. The eyes of all look to Thee, and Thou dost give them their food in due time. Thou dost open Thy hand, and dost satisfy the desire of every living thing.

Ps 145:21 And all flesh will bless His holy name forever and ever.

Ps 150:6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Praise the Lord!

Is 19:21 Thus the Lord will make Himself known to Egypt, and the Egyptians will know the Lord in that day. They will even worship with sacrifice and offering, and will make a vow to the Lord and perform it.

Is 19:22 And the Lord will strike Egypt, striking but healing; so they will return to the Lord, and He will respond to them and will heal them.

Is 25:6-8 And the Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain [Mount Zion]...and on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, even the veil which is stretched over all nations. He will swallow up death for all time, and the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces.

Is 26:9 For when the earth experiences Thy judgments, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

Is 40:5 Then the glory of the Lord will be revealed, and all flesh will see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

Is 45:22-23 Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Is 53:6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him.

Is 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory.

Is 66:23 All mankind will come to bow down before Me, says the Lord.

Lam 3:31-32 For the Lord will not reject forever, for if He causes grief, then He will have compassion according to His abundant lovingkindness.

Daniel 7:27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.

Micah 4:6-7 "In that day," declares the Lord, "I will assemble the lame, and gather the outcasts, even those whom I have afflicted. I will make the lame a remnant, and the outcasts a strong nation, and the Lord will reign over them in Mount Zion from now on and forever.

Micah 7:18-19 Who is a God like Thee, who pardons iniquity and passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in unchanging love. He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities underfoot. Yes, Thou wilt cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.



To Be Continued ....


______________________________
"For as in Adam all die,
so in Christ all will be made alive."
~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~
None of those verses seem to deal with the Lake of Fire judgment. Do you have any verses that say when people are released from the Lake of Fire? The majority of those verses were written to the nation of Israel and not to Gentiles who have stepped into eternity. What you need are verses that support that people get out of the Lake of Fire and when. The verses you provided deal with things of this life, not things of eternity after people have died. Now do you have scriptural support for what happens after a person has died that points to sinners getting out of the Lake of Fire or not? I'm going with NOT.
 
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Rajni

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Oh no, no, no ... People here have gone on and on about how the universalists don't provide Scripture to back up their position. Now the verses are provided and the ball is your court.
tennis.gif


I cannot take one's position seriously if they refuse to check out the very information for which they themselves have asked.









______________________________
"For as in Adam all die,
so in Christ all will be made alive."
~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~
 
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Crazy Liz

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This brings to mind the end of Job--no satisfactory answers are given yet after it all you feel ashamed of having the question...

The grace and mercy alongside the judgment of God present a paradox.

Jacob wrestled with God; Abraham bargained with God. These were among the most blessed of the patriarchs. Noah saw the whole earth punished for wickedness; Jonah saw wickedness forgiven and complained at the unfairness of it all.

What can we make of this God? He is so much like a person.
I think that's why I've come to reject the traditional "attributes of God" - you know, the ones that come from Aristotle & got made part of Christian doctrine somehow. The omnis.

They don't really fit the biblical narratives.
 
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Crazy Liz

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But by yourself, as you are prior to salvation, in your unregenerated state, you do not have freewill in the area of salvation. You have a bound will. You can only act according to the sinful nature, which does not seek after God or anything Holy. It's when God gives you a measure of faith, that you have the ability to choose. God acts, you react. People throw this freewill statement regarding salvation as if it's scripturally supported. I have never seen scriptural support for this and that's why I asked you where the verses were that supported it.



Many times. My own personal opinion is that at their core they're idolators. They don't want that God that you talk about or that is revealed in the scriptures. They want a god fo their own making, that likes everything they like and hates everything they hate.
Does this mean God throws some people into the Lake of Fire to be tormented for eternity without ever having even an opportunity to change that fate?
 
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Zecryphon

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Oh no, no, no ... People here have gone on and on about how the universalists don't provide Scripture to back up their position. Now the verses are provided and the ball is your court.
tennis.gif


I cannot take one's position seriously if they refuse to check out the very information for which they themselves have asked.









______________________________
"For as in Adam all die,
so in Christ all will be made alive."
~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~
Oh no, no, no ... People here have gone on and on about how the universalists don't provide Scripture to back up their position. Now the verses are provided and the ball is your court.

The assertion I'm making is not that you don't have scriptures to support universalism. My assertion is that you don't have scriptures that say a) that people will get out of the Lake of Fire and b) when these people get out of the Lake of Fire, and just for the hell of it c) verses that say how long the age will be for people confined to the Lake of Fire prior to being released into Heaven. Do you have verses that address any part of this assertion of mine?
 
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Rajni

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Amazing. Any frustration I feel about this from here on in is because I'm trying to do what only God Himself can do for you on this. And that will be my fault, not yours, lol!


Well, actually, I don't need those verses. If they were needed, God would have put them in there. Some may want those verses, so it's incumbent upon them to look into it for themselves.

This reminds me of a time when I was defending sola scriptura in another online forum, and people were insisting that Scripture wasn't all a person needed to lead a Christian life, because Scripture doesn't say when a person gets a soul, and so therefore Scripture doesn't help a person know when abortion is wrong. I came up with verses that showed from whence a human being came -- God -- and that this is all a person needs to know to not have an abortion. Believe it or not, this wasn't enough for some! They wanted verses that specifically said "A person has a soul at conception and is therefore human and therefore abortion would be wrong." Again, amazing.

Speaking for myself, I have all the answer I need in the verses I have provided pertaining to the ultimate redemption of everyone. When you are ready to find out more about this -- and you're in a place where you don't feel the need to defend your position on a debate forum -- you'll do the research needed to better understand the whole universal redemption thing. But this won't happen until you are good and ready, and that is fine too.



If that's the conclusion you've drawn, there's nothing more I can do for you. You're not ready yet. I was a Christian for about 18 years before believing in universal redemption, so I know it can take awhile. For some reason, you seem to feel the need to believe that those who end up in the LOF stay there. And that's fine -- for you. When I try to speculate as to what that need says about a person, I don't arrive at any conclusions that could be considered flattering in the least, so I'm better off just not speculating on that.

The seed has been planted, the ball's in your court (since I used that metaphor again, here's the cute little tennis smiley to go with it for you:
tennis.gif
), and you get the joy of seeing what comes of it (not the smiley -- the redemption thing), by the grace of God. If you are convinced that it is indeed unbiblical, may the Lord protect you from accepting it, for whatever a person thinks is a sin, for them it is a sin (Rom 14:23). If, however, it is biblical -- and I'm convinced it is -- may He bless you with the joy of seeing it! I will continue in the joy of sharing it, for those who do want to see it.






______________________________
"For as in Adam all die,
so in Christ all will be made alive."
~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~
 
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Zecryphon

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Does this mean God throws some people into the Lake of Fire to be tormented for eternity without ever having even an opportunity to change that fate?
"Does this mean God throws some people into the Lake of Fire to be tormented for eternity without ever having even an opportunity to change that fate?"

I don't know. For me, I don't think there's any way to answer that question without knowing the specifics of a person's life and whether or not God had ever given them a measure of faith or had exposed them to the gospel message of Christ. I don't have that kind of knowledge of any person, do you? I mean, any example I give of God giving them the truth would be speculation.

Like if I said "oh that person saw the creation around him or her and that is direct evidence that there is a creator." Well, yeah, that's true. But what in particular about the surrounding creation let's you know that the creator who made your surroundings, is the same creator as revealed in the Bible to be God? All you know from creation is that there is a creator, not that that creator is God.

If I said, "oh well, God could have revealed the truth to them in a dream." Again speculation without any proof on my part. Also, how many of us have written our dreams off as nothing more than a dream?

If I said "Oh well, there are so many Bibles, internet sites, tv programs and evangelists etc. all over the world, that there is no way that anyone could not be exposed to the truth." Again, speculation without evidence. Now I could point to the conscience and say "the truth of God has been written on the heart of every human being," And that'd be true, but alot of people don't regard their conscience as being God's truth, but rather a little voice inside of you that has been shaped by your culture and upbringing and is not absolute or binding upon anybody else, the way God's truth is said to be.

But all speculation aside about why God does what God does, we have all been called to the Great Commission and I think that takes top priority over any speculation we could quibble about as to why God does what God does. God knows who are part of the elect, we do not. We have to engage everyone we can and give them a law and gospel presentation so that they may know the truth and have a chance to know God. I consider it a great big scavenger hunt.
 
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Zecryphon

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"Amazing. Any frustration I feel about this from here on in is because I'm trying to do what only God Himself can do for you on this. And that will be my fault, not yours, lol!"

Why are you frustrated? This is an internet forum, not life or death. What you need for the doctrine of universal salvation is verses that say that one, people will get out of the Lake of Fire, and two, when people will get out of the Lake of Fire. If you have that, then you can answer the third part of my assertion which is, how long the "age" will be that people will be suffering in the Lake of Fire. If you had those verses, you'd have a much stronger case on your hands.



Quote:
What you need are verses that support that people get out of the Lake of Fire and when.


"Well, actually, I don't need those verses. If they were needed, God would have put them in there."

Well, actually you DO need those verses and their absence from scripture has to tell you something. That perhaps they're not in scripture, because universal salvation is not something God is going to grant.

"Some may want those verses, so it's incumbent upon them to look into it for themselves."

The verses aren't there. If they were, you could produce them and you can't. Just concede that point. The problem with universalism is that, imo, it's not a complete doctrine, because it doesn't give any assurance to anybody about when they will ultimately be reconciled with God. The Catholic doctrine of Purgatory at least addresses this issue. First it makes the distinction that Purgatory is not the same as the LoF and that people do get out of Purgatory when their sins have been atoned for through works. Now to me, that's completely heretical, but that's a whole separate debate. As repugnant as I find the idea of Purgatory to be, I still have more respect for it as a doctrine, because at least it's complete in scope. I can't say that for Universalism. Universalism is too open ended, as there's no definitive answer to the ultimate question with it. And the question is, when do people get released from the Lake of Fire?

"This reminds me of a time when I was defending sola scriptura in another online forum, and people were insisting that Scripture wasn't all a person needed to lead a Christian life, because Scripture doesn't say when a person gets a soul, and so therefore Scripture doesn't help a person know when abortion is wrong. I came up with verses that showed from whence a human being came -- God -- and that this is all a person needs to know to not have an abortion. Believe it or not, this wasn't enough for some!"

I believe it. No matter what you do, no matter how much evidence you think you have, you will never satisfy some people on certain issues, because they will argue and debate it to the nth degree. You learned a valuable lesson. I've been in discussions like that too. What people, like the ones you were most likely talking to in that forum, wanted was for you to satisfy their evidentiary requirements, which will ultimately be impossible since the standard that is in play is their own.

"They wanted verses that specifically said "A person has a soul at conception and is therefore human and therefore abortion would be wrong." Again, amazing."

Yeah, some people want that because they can't or won't apply Biblical principles to issues that were not issues when the scriptures were written. Legalized abortion was not an issue the way it is today. So instead of reading God's word and applying the principles, they want a black and white scriptural presentation showing why abortion is wrong. They want everything to be black and white and alot of times in scritpture, we find that things are not black and white.

"Speaking for myself, I have all the answer I need in the verses I have provided pertaining to the ultimate redemption of everyone."

Except when. That is the question that remains unanswered.

"When you are ready to find out more about this -- and you're in a place where you don't feel the need to defend your position on a debate forum -- you'll do the research needed to better understand the whole universal redemption thing."

You think just because I'm on an internet forum and opposing you I haven't done research into universalsim? That's pretty arrogant of you, I must say. What makes you any different than me. I could come at you with the same bs statement and say "oh, well, when you're ready to do some serious study into this, you'll come to the conclusion that I'm right and if you disagree with me it's just because you haven't taken the time to do the study into this that is necessary." Seriously, get over yourself.

"But this won't happen until you are good and ready, and that is fine too."

Oh thank you so much for your psychological analysis of me. Notice I haven't taken this position with you and there's a good reason for that. I can agree to disagree. You apparently can't.


Quote:
The verses you provided deal with things of this life, not things of eternity after people have died. Now do you have scriptural support for what happens after a person has died that points to sinners getting out of the Lake of Fire or not? I'm going with NOT.


"If that's the conclusion you've drawn, there's nothing more I can do for you. You're not ready yet."

Yeah, okay. Whatever you need to tell yourself. You don't have the scriptures that would solidify Universalism as a valid doctrine, but instead of just conceding that point you have to personally attack me. How typical.

"I was a Christian for about 18 years before believing in universal redemption, so I know it can take awhile. For some reason, you seem to feel the need to believe that those who end up in the LOF stay there."

That's what scripture says. If it says that people get out of the Lake of Fire, please provide the scriptures. The scriptures state people are thrown in and then are silent about anything regarding release from the Lake of Fire. What is the intellecutally honest conclusion to draw? That people are let out? Sure, if you wanna read beyond the text and make yourself feel better, you could do that. Or you could deal with what's written and accept it.

"And that's fine -- for you."

Ah, post-modernism. Gotta love it.

"When I try to speculate as to what that need says about a person, I don't arrive at any conclusions that could be considered flattering in the least, so I'm better off just not speculating on that."

Oh, why stop your speculation about me now? You've speculated so much already. None of it's correct, but then speculation without evidence never really is correct.

"The seed has been planted, the ball's in your court (since I used that metaphor again, here's the cute little tennis smiley to go with it for you:
tennis.gif
), and you get the joy of seeing what comes of it (not the smiley -- the redemption thing), by the grace of God. If you are convinced that it is indeed unbiblical, may the Lord protect you from accepting it, for whatever a person thinks is a sin, for them it is a sin (Rom 14:23). If, however, it is biblical -- and I'm convinced it is -- may He bless you with the joy of seeing it! I will continue in the joy of sharing it, for those who do want to see it."

Yeah, cuz it's all about what we want to see and not what really is. Now that's funny. LOL
 
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Crazy Liz

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I don't know. For me, I don't think there's any way to answer that question without knowing the specifics of a person's life and whether or not God had ever given them a measure of faith or had exposed them to the gospel message of Christ. I don't have that kind of knowledge of any person, do you? I mean, any example I give of God giving them the truth would be speculation.

Like if I said "oh that person saw the creation around him or her and that is direct evidence that there is a creator." Well, yeah, that's true. But what in particular about the surrounding creation let's you know that the creator who made your surroundings, is the same creator as revealed in the Bible to be God? All you know from creation is that there is a creator, not that that creator is God.

If I said, "oh well, God could have revealed the truth to them in a dream." Again speculation without any proof on my part. Also, how many of us have written our dreams off as nothing more than a dream?

If I said "Oh well, there are so many Bibles, internet sites, tv programs and evangelists etc. all over the world, that there is no way that anyone could not be exposed to the truth." Again, speculation without evidence. Now I could point to the conscience and say "the truth of God has been written on the heart of every human being," And that'd be true, but alot of people don't regard their conscience as being God's truth, but rather a little voice inside of you that has been shaped by your culture and upbringing and is not absolute or binding upon anybody else, the way God's truth is said to be.

But all speculation aside about why God does what God does, we have all been called to the Great Commission and I think that takes top priority over any speculation we could quibble about as to why God does what God does. God knows who are part of the elect, we do not. We have to engage everyone we can and give them a law and gospel presentation so that they may know the truth and have a chance to know God. I consider it a great big scavenger hunt.

Based on your last two posts, I think I have misunderstood your position on universal reconciliation. Perhaps I have confused some of your posts with someone else's posts, because it appears to me that at the bottom line, you and I actually have the same opinion on the concept of universal reconciliation.

The argument in the previous thread was that universal reconciliation is FALSE. To me, "false" means definitely wrong, will never happen, impossible. In that sense, I cannot say it is false, any more than I can say whether or not every individual has been or will be given an opportunity to repent.

I also cannot say universal reconciliation is TRUE. I can say I think it is likely true, and give my reasons, but they are not the kind of conclusive proof you are asking for, and I may be wrong. I would certainly not treat universal reconciliation as a dogma, because it is not. It is a matter on which many Christians disagree.

In other words, universal reconciliation, in my mind, is neither dogmatically true, nor dogmatically false. It is speculative. I think the Jonah narrative is the best proof I have that it is possible, perhaps likely, certainly not demonstrably and dogmatically false. Calling someone who believes it a heretic or a false teacher would be wrong.

Rather, I would say they have faith that God's character is merciful, and have resolved Jonah's dilemma in a different way than Jonah did. Whether this is something a Christian is free to do with God's approval is a question of practical theology and ethics which I think is worth discussing. However, one cannot reach this ethical question while asserting dogmatically that the belief in universal reconciliation is FALSE.

OTOH, I think I can also understand calling universal reconciliation a heresy can also be an attempt to resolve Jonah's dilemma. If the Ninevites had asked Jonah, "If we repent, will God relent and not destroy us?" How should Jonah have responded to that direct question? Should Jonah have said, "No. God's message to you is that you WILL be destroyed, not that you MAY be destroyed?" IOW, how far is the prophet called to go in defending the message God has given him to deliver?

ISTM, your resolution, to say, "I don't know," or better yet, "The answer to that question is not part of the message God has given me to deliver to you," would be better responses. In the book of Jonah, the Ninevites never asked Jonah that question, so we don't know how he would/should have answered if the Ninevites had heightened his dilemma to that degree.

You, however, have asked exactly that kind of question. Several posters have answered in different ways. One explanation for the difference in answers is that different posters have resolved Jonah's dilemma in different ways.



Why are you frustrated? This is an internet forum, not life or death. What you need for the doctrine of universal salvation is verses that say that one, people will get out of the Lake of Fire, and two, when people will get out of the Lake of Fire. If you have that, then you can answer the third part of my assertion which is, how long the "age" will be that people will be suffering in the Lake of Fire. If you had those verses, you'd have a much stronger case on your hands.


Why are you demanding this? The Ninevites didn't ask Jonah, "When will God forgive us?"


I think Chaela is trying to say to you (and I hope she will correct me if I'm wrong) is that she is confident that God will have mercy, even though God has not revealed when or how.

When people get out of the Lake of Fire is your question, not hers. She does not need an answer to that question. There are many human question that God does not answer.

Well, actually you DO need those verses and their absence from scripture has to tell you something. That perhaps they're not in scripture, because universal salvation is not something God is going to grant.

"Perhaps" is the key word here, as I see it.

The verses aren't there. If they were, you could produce them and you can't. Just concede that point. The problem with universalism is that, imo, it's not a complete doctrine, because it doesn't give any assurance to anybody about when they will ultimately be reconciled with God. The Catholic doctrine of Purgatory at least addresses this issue. First it makes the distinction that Purgatory is not the same as the LoF and that people do get out of Purgatory when their sins have been atoned for through works. Now to me, that's completely heretical, but that's a whole separate debate. As repugnant as I find the idea of Purgatory to be, I still have more respect for it as a doctrine, because at least it's complete in scope. I can't say that for Universalism. Universalism is too open ended, as there's no definitive answer to the ultimate question with it. And the question is, when do people get released from the Lake of Fire?


It's not a complete doctrine, and therefore the Church has never taught it as dogma. However, I believe the Church would be wrong to condemn it as dogmatically false, also. To say to those who wish to speculate about it that this is not a safe way to resolve Jonah's dilemma is probably as far as the church could go, but that would be an ethical/pragmatic matter (I think the Orthodox might use the word oikonomia here) rather than a matter of declaring universal reconciliation as dogmatically false.

I believe it. No matter what you do, no matter how much evidence you think you have, you will never satisfy some people on certain issues, because they will argue and debate it to the nth degree. You learned a valuable lesson. I've been in discussions like that too. What people, like the ones you were most likely talking to in that forum, wanted was for you to satisfy their evidentiary requirements, which will ultimately be impossible since the standard that is in play is their own.

Is that what you have been trying to prove by insisting the essential requirement is a Bible verse that answers the question, "When will people get out of the Lake of Fire?" :doh:

Yeah, some people want that because they can't or won't apply Biblical principles to issues that were not issues when the scriptures were written. Legalized abortion was not an issue the way it is today. So instead of reading God's word and applying the principles, they want a black and white scriptural presentation showing why abortion is wrong. They want everything to be black and white and alot of times in scritpture, we find that things are not black and white.



Except when. That is the question that remains unanswered.

A question that remains unanswered. Exactly.
 
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Zecryphon

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"Based on your last two posts, I think I have misunderstood your position on universal reconciliation. Perhaps I have confused some of your posts with someone else's posts, because it appears to me that at the bottom line, you and I actually have the same opinion on the concept of universal reconciliation."

You consider it heresy too?


"The argument in the previous thread was that universal reconciliation is FALSE. To me, "false" means definitely wrong, will never happen, impossible. In that sense, I cannot say it is false, any more than I can say whether or not every individual has been or will be given an opportunity to repent."

You can't say it's definitively false. Okay, that's fine. My position is that I remain unconvinced that it is true. I don't see any scriptures that support everyone will be reconciled back to God eventually. There are too many scriptures that speak of an "elect" and too many scriptures that say people will depart into everlasting fire. For me that kills the possibility of any universal reconcilliation between God and mankind. That's just me. Obviously, others disagree with me and think I just "need to study more" until I agree with them. As to everybody being given the opportunity to repent. I can't say, since I do not have access to that information. Anything I'd offer on it would be speculation and nothing more.

"I also cannot say universal reconciliation is TRUE. I can say I think it is likely true, and give my reasons, but they are not the kind of conclusive proof you are asking for, and I may be wrong. I would certainly not treat universal reconciliation as a dogma, because it is not. It is a matter on which many Christians disagree."

It could become dogma for some churches. There are universalist churches out there. It'd be my guess that they teach Universalism as fact. Again, just a guess, not a definitive statement. The evidence I'm looking for is really focused in this thread. I'm looking for scriptures that state when a person is released from the Lake of Fire. Find those and I'd be forced to reconsider my position on this matter. Without them, I see no compelling reason to reassess my beliefs at this point in time.

"In other words, universal reconciliation, in my mind, is neither dogmatically true, nor dogmatically false. It is speculative. I think the Jonah narrative is the best proof I have that it is possible, perhaps likely, certainly not demonstrably and dogmatically false. Calling someone who believes it a heretic or a false teacher would be wrong."

I disagree. If a person is going to promote the idea of Universal Salvation as true and says they have scriptures that prove it to be true, and then fail to provide scriptures that teach it to be true, you are allowed to call them a heretic. It identifies them as a false teacher and lets other people know that what they say is false and not to be trusted. People who assert that universalism is true are heretics, because I have not seen one person prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this doctrine is true.

"Rather, I would say they have faith that God's character is merciful, and have resolved Jonah's dilemma in a different way than Jonah did. Whether this is something a Christian is free to do with God's approval is a question of practical theology and ethics which I think is worth discussing. However, one cannot reach this ethical question while asserting dogmatically that the belief in universal reconciliation is FALSE."

The belief in the doctrine is most likely genuine, it's the doctrine itself that is said to be false.

"OTOH, I think I can also understand calling universal reconciliation a heresy can also be an attempt to resolve Jonah's dilemma. If the Ninevites had asked Jonah, "If we repent, will God relent and not destroy us?" How should Jonah have responded to that direct question? Should Jonah have said, "No. God's message to you is that you WILL be destroyed, not that you MAY be destroyed?" IOW, how far is the prophet called to go in defending the message God has given him to deliver?"

Can you think of an instance where a prophet actually had to defend a message?

"ISTM, your resolution, to say, "I don't know," or better yet, "The answer to that question is not part of the message God has given me to deliver to you," would be better responses. In the book of Jonah, the Ninevites never asked Jonah that question, so we don't know how he would/should have answered if the Ninevites had heightened his dilemma to that degree."

Also, who's to say that whatever answer we supply for Jonah in that situation is the correct one? It's all speculation and nothing to base a doctrine upon.

"You, however, have asked exactly that kind of question. Several posters have answered in different ways. One explanation for the difference in answers is that different posters have resolved Jonah's dilemma in different ways."

Fine. But are their resolutions of Jonah's dillema binding upon other people? Why or why not?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Why are you frustrated? This is an internet forum, not life or death. What you need for the doctrine of universal salvation is verses that say that one, people will get out of the Lake of Fire, and two, when people will get out of the Lake of Fire. If you have that, then you can answer the third part of my assertion which is, how long the "age" will be that people will be suffering in the Lake of Fire. If you had those verses, you'd have a much stronger case on your hands.



"Why are you demanding this? The Ninevites didn't ask Jonah, "When will God forgive us?""

For the doctrine of universal reconciliation to be true, it should answer this question. This is a logical question to ask. If you found out you were going away to, essentially a prison for the crimes you have committed, you'd want to know how long you'd be there. It's natural. If the judge told you, "I don't know." How would you feel? Could you have any assurance that you would get out one day? I couldn't, because there is nothing that has been presented that shows that the judge is ever going to let me out. He has thrown me in, that's it. Where do you go from here? You could comfort yourself with statements like "well I know a couple of things about that judge and he seems like a pretty nice guy, so I'm sure he'll let me out eventually." But that's a false hope isn't it? Some will contend that false hope is better than no hope, but I don't know if that's true. False hope is certainly more comforting and that's what I see the doctrine of Universalism doing for people, comforting them. But just because it may be comforting that doesn't make it true.


Quote:
Quote:
What you need are verses that support that people get out of the Lake of Fire and when.

"I think Chaela is trying to say to you (and I hope she will correct me if I'm wrong) is that she is confident that God will have mercy, even though God has not revealed when or how."

And upon what is she basing her confidence? What is revealed in the scriptures? Or what she would personally like to see. I'd love to see everybody reconciled back to God too, but the scriptural support for my want, is not there.

"When people get out of the Lake of Fire is your question, not hers. She does not need an answer to that question. There are many human question that God does not answer."

Yeah it's a question that is automatically presented by the doctrine of Universalism. Since she is asserting that people will be let out of the Lake of Fire at some point, it's only natural to follow-up with the question of when. Since she doesn't know and has zero scripture to support this assertion, she should say "I don't know." But she won't do that. I think she believes that if she concedes that point, universalism as a doctrine has a gaping hole in it.


Quote:
Well, actually you DO need those verses and their absence from scripture has to tell you something. That perhaps they're not in scripture, because universal salvation is not something God is going to grant.
""Perhaps" is the key word here, as I see it."

Yeah, it's one possibility. What's your explanation for the lack of scriptures addressing when people get out of the Lake of Fire?




Quote:
The verses aren't there. If they were, you could produce them and you can't. Just concede that point. The problem with universalism is that, imo, it's not a complete doctrine, because it doesn't give any assurance to anybody about when they will ultimately be reconciled with God. The Catholic doctrine of Purgatory at least addresses this issue. First it makes the distinction that Purgatory is not the same as the LoF and that people do get out of Purgatory when their sins have been atoned for through works. Now to me, that's completely heretical, but that's a whole separate debate. As repugnant as I find the idea of Purgatory to be, I still have more respect for it as a doctrine, because at least it's complete in scope. I can't say that for Universalism. Universalism is too open ended, as there's no definitive answer to the ultimate question with it. And the question is, when do people get released from the Lake of Fire?
"It's not a complete doctrine, and therefore the Church has never taught it as dogma."

Really. Ya know that's really funny because the doctrine appears in the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church. Apparently someone over in Rome considers it a key doctrine. In fact, it's so key to Catholicism that if the church ever gets rid of it, Catholicism falls apart. Their justification before God hinges upon Purgatory.

"However, I believe the Church would be wrong to condemn it as dogmatically false, also. To say to those who wish to speculate about it that this is not a safe way to resolve Jonah's dilemma is probably as far as the church could go, but that would be an ethical/pragmatic matter (I think the Orthodox might use the word oikonomia here) rather than a matter of declaring universal reconciliation as dogmatically false."

How are you tying Jonah's dillema to Purgatory? According to RCC belief, Jonah went to Purgatory and is most likely still there.


Quote:
I believe it. No matter what you do, no matter how much evidence you think you have, you will never satisfy some people on certain issues, because they will argue and debate it to the nth degree. You learned a valuable lesson. I've been in discussions like that too. What people, like the ones you were most likely talking to in that forum, wanted was for you to satisfy their evidentiary requirements, which will ultimately be impossible since the standard that is in play is their own.
"Is that what you have been trying to prove by insisting the essential requirement is a Bible verse that answers the question, "When will people get out of the Lake of Fire?" :doh:"

No, I'm not trying to teach her anything. Too bad she can't say the same, isn't it? She learned that lesson about posting on internet forums from other people, not me.


Quote:
Yeah, some people want that because they can't or won't apply Biblical principles to issues that were not issues when the scriptures were written. Legalized abortion was not an issue the way it is today. So instead of reading God's word and applying the principles, they want a black and white scriptural presentation showing why abortion is wrong. They want everything to be black and white and alot of times in scritpture, we find that things are not black and white.



Except when. That is the question that remains unanswered.
"A question that remains unanswered. Exactly"

Yep, I do not see anywhere in scripture that people get out. When someone provides scriptures that address when people get out, I will be forced to reconsider my position on this matter. We know they go in and that's all we know. To say that they get out at a future time, is speculation that makes the person saying it feel good.
 
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Tavita

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The argument in the previous thread was that universal reconciliation is FALSE. To me, "false" means definitely wrong, will never happen, impossible. In that sense, I cannot say it is false, any more than I can say whether or not every individual has been or will be given an opportunity to repent.

I also cannot say universal reconciliation is TRUE. I can say I think it is likely true, and give my reasons, but they are not the kind of conclusive proof you are asking for, and I may be wrong. I would certainly not treat universal reconciliation as a dogma, because it is not. It is a matter on which many Christians disagree.

In other words, universal reconciliation, in my mind, is neither dogmatically true, nor dogmatically false. It is speculative. I think the Jonah narrative is the best proof I have that it is possible, perhaps likely, certainly not demonstrably and dogmatically false. Calling someone who believes it a heretic or a false teacher would be wrong.

Rather, I would say they have faith that God's character is merciful, and have resolved Jonah's dilemma in a different way than Jonah did. Whether this is something a Christian is free to do with God's approval is a question of practical theology and ethics which I think is worth discussing. However, one cannot reach this ethical question while asserting dogmatically that the belief in universal reconciliation is FALSE.

I'd like to offer a following paragraph or two from a book entitled "[SIZE=-1]Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years[/SIZE]" [SIZE=-1]by J.W. Hanson - 1899

The first chapter or two describes that until the 500's, ultimate reconciliation was one of the main messages taught and believed in the early church. That there were those who believed in eternal torment was true, but as the following shows, universalism, or ultimate reconciliation was not considered a heresy...
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Nicene Creed[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The next oldest creed, the first declaration authorized by a consensus of the whole church, was the Nicene, A.D. 325; completed in 381 at Constantinopole. Its sole reference to the future world is in these words: "I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world (æon) to come." It does not contain a syllable referring to endless punishment, though the doctrine was then professed by a portion of the church, and was insisted upon by some, though it was not generally enough held to be stated as the average belief.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]So dominant was the influence of the Greek fathers, who had learned Christianity in their native tongue, in the language in which it was announced, and so little had Tertullian's cruel ideas prevailed, that it was not even attempted to make the horrid sentiment a part of the creed of the church. Moreover, Gregory
Nazianzen presided over the council in Constantinople, in which the Nicean creed was finally shaped--the Niceo-Constantinopolitan creed--and as he was a Universalist, and as the clause, "I believe in the life of the world to come," was added by Gregory of Nyssa, an "unflinching advocate of extreme Universalism, and the very flower of orthodoxy," it must be apparent that the consensus of Christian sentiment was not yet anti-Universalistic.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]General Sentiment in the Fourth Century[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]This the general sentiment in the church from 325 A.D. to 381 A.D. demanded that the life beyond the grave must be stated, and as there is no hint of the existence of a world of torment, how can the conclusion be escaped that Christian faith did not then include the thought of endless woe? Would a council, composed even in part of believers in endless torment, permit a Universalist to preside, and another to shape its creed, and not even attempt to give expression to that idea? Is not the Nicene creed a witness, in what it does not say, to the broader faith that must have been the religion of the century that adopted it?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]It is historical (See Socrates's Ecclesiastical History) that the four great General Councils held in the first four centuries--those at Nice, Constantinople, Ephesus, and Chalcedon--gave expression to no condemnation of universal restoration, though, as will be shown, the doctrine had been prevalent all along.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In the Nicene creed adopted A.D. 325, by three hundred and twenty to two hundred and eighteen bishops, the only reference to the future world is where it is said that Christ "will come again to judge the living and the dead." This is the original form, subsequently changed. A.D. 341 the assembled bishops at Antioch made a declaration of faith in which these words occur: "The Lord Jesus Christ will come again with glory and power to judge the living and the dead." A.D. 346 the bishops presented a declaration to the Emperor Constans affirming that Jesus Christ "shall come at the consummation of the ages, to judge the living and the dead, and render to every one according to his works." The synod at Rimini, A.D. 359, affirmed that Christ "descended into the lower parts of the earth, and disposed matters there, at the sight of whom the door-keepers trembled--and at the last day he will come in his Father's glory to render to every one according to his deeds." This declaration opens the gates of mercy by recognizing the proclamation of the Gospel to the dead, and, as it was believed that when Christ preached in Hades the doors were opened and all those in ward were released, the words recited at Rimini that he "disposed matters there," are very significant.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Nicene and Constantinopolitan creeds, printed in one, will exhibit the nature of the changes made at Constantinople, and will show that the "life to come" and not the post-mortem woe of sinners, was the chief thought with the early Christians.


I personally have no problem with people believing in eternal torment if that is how they see it, my concern is those who profess this declare universalist belief as heretical, when it's obvious that this wasn't an issue until hundreds of years after Christ. Universalism was a non issue in the early church.
[/SIZE]
 
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Tavita

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How are you tying Jonah's dillema to Purgatory? According to RCC belief, Jonah went to Purgatory and is most likely still there.

Talking about the RCC, it seems they take a much softer role in their beliefs about ultimate reconciliation that what most Protestant faiths do...

Universal Salvation in the Modern Church

The doctrine of universal salvation has become very popular in the modern Roman Catholic Church. St. Therese of the Child Jesus is said to have maintain it in the nineteenth Century when it was apparently still rare for anyone to do so. Pope John Paul made her a Doctor (a special teacher) of the Church and her little way spirituality of childlike trust in God has been heavily promoted amongst Catholics.

• St. Therese wrote a Christmas play for her sisters, in which the Child Jesus insists, in correction of the Angel of Vengeance, that, “every soul will find forgiveness”. On the last day, the Child Jesus will remain “the God of love” who suffered to recompense all of the sins of the entire human race.

Hans Urs von Balthasar argued in favour of the doctrine; he has been called Pope John Paul's favourite theologian and he founded a theological journal with Ratzinger now Pope Benedict.

• In his encyclical Redemptoris Missio, Pope John Paul II expresses forcefully the same position defended by Balthasar. If Christ desires the salvation of all and if there is a ‘real possibility of salvation in Christ for all humanity,' hope for all is simply part of what it means to follow Christ.

Karl Rahner also popularised the doctrine amongst Catholics.

The Second Vatican Council maintained the doctrine that all will be saved in the Apokatastasis or Final Restoration of All Things . The following is taken from the constitution Gaudium et Spes (1:45, 2:57).

• While helping the world and receiving many benefits from it, the Church has a single intention: that God's kingdom may come, and that the salvation of the whole human race may come to pass . For every benefit which the People of God during its earthly pilgrimage can offer to the human family stems from the fact that the Church is ‘the universal sacrament of salvation' simultaneously manifesting and actualising the mystery of God's love.

For God's Word, by whom all things were made, was Himself made flesh so that as perfect man He might save all men and sum up all things in Himself . The Lord is the goal of human history, the focal point of the longings of history and of civilization, the center of the human race, the joy of every heart and the answer to all its yearnings. He it is Whom the Father raised from the dead, lifted on high and stationed at His right hand, making Him judge of the living and the dead. Enlivened and united in His Spirit, we journey toward the consummation of human history, one which fully accords with the counsel of God's love: ‘To reestablish all things in Christ, both those in the heavens and those on the earth' (Eph. 1:10).

... Moreover, by the impulse of grace, he is disposed to acknowledge the Word of God, Who before He became flesh in order to save all and to sum up all in Himself was already ‘in the world' as ‘the true light which enlightens every man' (John 1:9-10).”


Pope John Paul II often gave us to hope that all will be saved and taught the doctrine of universal salvation. The following are but three examples of many compiled.

• Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. (General Audience of July 28, 1999)

• Christ, Redeemer of man, now for ever ‘clad in a robe dipped in blood' (Apoc, 19,13), the everlasting, invincible guarantee of universal salvation . (Message of John Paul II to the Abbess General of the Order of the Most Holy Saviour of St Bridget)

• If the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, is to convince the world precisely of this ‘judgment,' undoubtedly he does so to continue Christ's work aimed at universal salvation . We can therefore conclude that in bearing witness to Christ, the Paraclete is an assiduous (though invisible) advocate and defender of the work of salvation, and of all those engaged in this work. He is also the guarantor of the definitive triumph over sin and over the world subjected to sin, in order to free it from sin and introduce it into the way of salvation. (General Audience of May 24, 1989)

The new, post-Vatican II Catechism of the Catholic Church also gives us to hope that all will be saved.

• 1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost : ‘Lord, let me never be parted from you.' If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God ‘desires all men to be saved' (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him ‘all things are possible' (Mt 19:26).

• 1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere ‘to the end' and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for ‘all men to be saved.'

The new Roman Missal and Divine Office do too.

• Remember our brothers and sisters who have gone to their rest in the hope of rising again; bring them and all the departed into the light of your presence . Have mercy on us all. (Eucharistic Prayer II)

• Almighty God, we recall how you sent your angel to the centurion Cornelius to show him the way of salvation. Open our hearts to work more zealously for the salvation of the world, so that your Church may bring us and all men into your presence . (Divine Office, Tuesdays, Afternoon Prayer)



In these articles it states that Pope John Paul was a universalist. I think personally they take that too far, but as you can see, the RCC is totally open to the possibility that all will be saved.
 
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Crazy Liz

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You consider it heresy too?
No, I don't.



You can't say it's definitively false. Okay, that's fine. My position is that I remain unconvinced that it is true.

If you can't say it is dogmatically false, then it is not a heresy. It is something reasonable Christians may reasonably disagree about.

I don't see any scriptures that support everyone will be reconciled back to God eventually. There are too many scriptures that speak of an "elect" and too many scriptures that say people will depart into everlasting fire. For me that kills the possibility of any universal reconcilliation between God and mankind. That's just me. Obviously, others disagree with me and think I just "need to study more" until I agree with them. As to everybody being given the opportunity to repent. I can't say, since I do not have access to that information. Anything I'd offer on it would be speculation and nothing more.

So is belief one way or another about everybody being given the opportunity to repent a heresy?

Because you say you do not have any information one way or the other. If I understand your working definition of a heresy, then I think I would have to conclude that both the belief that everyone is given an opportunity to repent is a heresy, and so is the belief that not everyone is given an opportunity to repent. :confused:
 
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SpiritDriven

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None of those verses seem to deal with the Lake of Fire judgment. Do you have any verses that say when people are released from the Lake of Fire? The majority of those verses were written to the nation of Israel and not to Gentiles who have stepped into eternity. What you need are verses that support that people get out of the Lake of Fire and when. The verses you provided deal with things of this life, not things of eternity after people have died. Now do you have scriptural support for what happens after a person has died that points to sinners getting out of the Lake of Fire or not? I'm going with NOT.

Pslam 90.3
Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

You over looked that the blood of Christ is on us all..you can look for life in the scriptures if you like, but as Jesus said, you will not find it there....1 Timothy 2.4 first proceeded out of the mouth of God.....you either trust and believe that God is true to his word or not.....many do not....that will never be my problem.
I already know...not believe....know.... that nobody will be lost to God.

It was an experience with the holy spirit that led me in the search for wanting to know more....not the teachings of men....


I am no more Loved by God than any other man.....but I have peace of mind, that many will never know in this life, I would bring this peace to the minds of other men If I could....that is the only reason I post here....outside of that I do not want to be here....I have better things to do....

Peace
 
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