Universalism: pros and cons

[Crazy Liz]

Catholics know how long each sin they've committed will keep them in Purgatory. .

They do?

I've never heard that before.

 

[Crazy Liz]

So Floating Axe....your Church does teach that God made peace through the blood of the Cross reconciling all things to himself ?

All things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them (2 Corinthians 5:18-19).

It was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Christ, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven (Colossians 1:19-20).

Does your Church teach that the Fathers Good Pleasure is already accomplished....via the will of God...and not via the Will of Man ?

Reconciling doesn't mean that all will be with Him. Reconciling by God means that all will be made right or SETTLED once and for all by His justice: righteousness to reward and unrighteousness to damnation. It is God's promise to reckon.

On what basis does your church distinguish the meaning of "reconcile" in the verses SD quoted from the meaning in these verses?

[bible]1 corinthians 7:10-11[/bible]

[bible]romans 5:10-11[/bible]

[bible]2 corinthians 5:17-21[/bible]

[bible]ephesians 2:14-18[/bible]

[bible]matthew 5:21-24[/bible]

 

[Rajni]

It sounds alot to me like the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, with the main difference being that Catholics know how long each sin they've committed will keep them in Purgatory. Universalists don't have this knowledge nor do they claim to. It's all very vague and that is not reassuring in the least.

It's far more reassuring than the alternative.

Another difference is that Purgatory is believed to be for the atoning for sin. Christ's death took care of all atonement, so Purgatory, based on a works-salvation, is not Scriptural. Universal redemption is not based on works-salvation, either here or in the hereafter.

As for vague.... "Vague" is about as clear as anyone who hasn't died yet is going to get on exactly how things go down--and for how long--beyond the headstone. We can only go by Faith at this point.

______________________________​

"For as in Adam all die, ​

so in Christ all will be made alive." ​

~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~​

 

[Zaac]

It sounds alot to me like the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, with the main difference being that Catholics know how long each sin they've committed will keep them in Purgatory. Universalists don't have this knowledge nor do they claim to. It's all very vague and that is not reassuring in the least.

That's exactly what it sounds like. Just toss out the Good News that Jesus Christ is victorious and death no longer has its sting because if you have accepted Christ, to die is to be in His presence.

Rather, universalist would have folks to believe that death still has its sting and though you may spend some time in hell and its torment, you might get out down the road somewhere.

 

[Zecryphon]

They do?

I've never heard that before.

They must, because whenever they sold an indulgence or prescribed a work to be done as penitence, they knew how many years off of Purgatory that indulgence or penitence was good for. How could they know that unless they knew what each sin was worth in Purgatorial years?

 

[SpiritDriven]

Anyhow.....back to the incident at the Cross.....

What actualy happened at the Cross was the Sin debt of all human Kind was paid in full....forever, as the Apostle Paul tells us, nothing now seperates us from the Love of God.

It is not my place to try and understand or explain how anybody could teach that anybody could thwart the Will of God.....how easy could it be for me to say....that any damn fool knows the will of God cannot be thwarted....just read 1 Timothy 2.4...

However it is God who has blinded them for a season to suit a higher purpose of his.....the soveriegn will of God prevails in every instance with every individual.

We just do the best we can to explain what Universalists have had revealed to them by God....not what we have been taught by men.

What a difference!

 

[Zecryphon]

It's far more reassuring than the alternative.

Another difference is that Purgatory is believed to be for the atoning for sin. Christ's death took care of all atonement, so Purgatory, based on a works-salvation, is not Scriptural. Universal redemption is not based on works-salvation, either here or in the hereafter.

As for vague.... "Vague" is about as clear as anyone who hasn't died yet is going to get on exactly how things go down--and for how long--beyond the headstone. We can only go by Faith at this point.

______________________________​

"For as in Adam all die, ​

so in Christ all will be made alive." ​

~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~​

"As for vague.... "Vague" is about as clear as anyone who hasn't died yet is going to get on exactly how things go down"

Nope. Hebrews 9:27 tells you how things are going to go down. First death and then judgment. What is unclear about that schedule to you?

"--and for how long--beyond the headstone."

You claim that it is only for an age people will suffer in the Lake of Fire. Where is your scriptural support for how long an age is and when people will get out of the Lake of Fire?

"We can only go by Faith at this point."

No, we can go by scriptures too.

 

[Rajni]

That's exactly what it sounds like. Just toss out the Good News that Jesus Christ is victorious and death no longer has its sting because if you have accepted Christ, to die is to be in His presence.

Zaac, could you pinpoint where we have done this? Thanks in advance!

Rather, universalist would have folks to believe that death still has its sting and though you may spend some time in hell and its torment....

So... temporary suffering is worse than endless suffering? How do you figure that?

...you might get out down the road somewhere.

You WILL get out down the road somewhere.

______________________________​

"For as in Adam all die, ​

so in Christ all will be made alive." ​

~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~​

 

[Zecryphon]

Anyhow.....back to the incident at the Cross.....

What actualy happened at the Cross was the Sin debt of all human Kind was paid in full....forever, as the Apostle Paul tells us, nothing now seperates us from the Love of God.

It is not my place to try and understand or explain how anybody could teach that anybody could thwart the Will of God.....how easy could it be for me to say....that any damn fool knows the will of God cannot be thwarted....just read 1 Timothy 2.4...

However it is God who has blinded them for a season to suit a higher purpose of his.....the soveriegn will of God prevails in every instance with every individual.

We just do the best we can to explain what Universalists have had revealed to them by God....not what we have been taught by men.

What a difference!

"What actualy happened at the Cross was the Sin debt of all human Kind was paid in full....forever, as the Apostle Paul tells us, nothing now seperates us from the Love of God."

Who is the "us", Paul is referring to there? Is it all mankind, as you'd like everyone to believe? Or is it Christians?

"It is not my place to try and understand or explain how anybody could teach that anybody could thwart the Will of God.....how easy could it be for me to say....that any damn fool knows the will of God cannot be thwarted....just read 1 Timothy 2.4..."

Right, the will of God can only be thwarted if the God in question happens to punish people for all eternity.

"We just do the best we can to explain what Universalists have had revealed to them by God....not what we have been taught by men."

Ah, still railing against the teachings of men I see. But you use plenty of teaching of men to support your assertions. A tad bit hypocritical don't you think?

 

[Zecryphon]

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42921311&postcount=326

Zaac, could you pinpoint where we have done this? Thanks in advance!

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42921311&postcount=326

So... temporary suffering is worse than endless suffering? How do you figure that?

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42921311&postcount=326

You WILL get out down the road somewhere.

______________________________​

"For as in Adam all die, ​

so in Christ all will be made alive." ​

~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~​

"You WILL get out down the road somewhere."

Great. Where's the scriptural support for this statement?

 

[Rajni]

Hebrews 9:27 tells you how things are going to go down. First death and then judgment. What is unclear about that schedule to you?

Okay, so, after death, what color are the hats people will be wearing? Will they be wearing hats? How many blondes will be present? Brunettes? Red-heads? How many males versus females? When you say "the judgment", how will that procedure look? Which individual gets judged first? How will that person react? Will it be breezy? Will God shine with a yellowish glow or a bluish one? Will people be standing? If so, will their knees be locked or slightly bent? What will be running through your mind when this day comes? What other friends and family of yours will be standing right next to you at that moment (be specific and certain about this, now -- no room for ambiguity here).
You see, Hebrews 9:27 is very vague when one realizes how much more clarification could have been provided.
Nowhere in the verse does "the judgment" mean "endless torment". "The judgment" could just as easily be seen as God judging who has yet to be saved and making arrangements for that to occur.

You claim that it is only for an age people will suffer in the Lake of Fire. Where is your scriptural support for how long an age is and when people will get out of the Lake of Fire?

Does one need to know how long an age is before it can be called an age?

No, we can go by scriptures too.

It still takes faith to believe the Scriptures enough to go by them.

______________________________​

"For as in Adam all die, ​

so in Christ all will be made alive." ​

~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~​

 

[Zaac]

Judged by the law "that gives Freedom". Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Freedom. I see this as saying that just as mercy was shown the believer, the believer should show this same mercy toward others, as mercy is more powerful (it triumphs over judgment).

No complaints here.

What makes you say that? Judgment takes place with believers as well.

Because the judgment of Christians that takes place at the Bema Seat will be a judgment of their works done for Christ. It will NOT be a judgment of salvation.

At the Great White Throne of Judgment, an account is given of everything before they are tossed into the lake of fire.

I agree we reap what we sow, and God treats us the way we treat others. So imagine how He must treat those of us who sincerely desire -- as He does -- the salvation of all. Believing in the ultimate salvation of everyone around me has dramatically increased my desire to treat them mercifully. Previously, one of the less admirable reasons I couldn't wait for the rapture was so that we could get the hell outta here and watch the unbelievers get their butts kicked from a safe distance. Not so merciful, that, lol!

I think you're confusing your inability to be merciful with God's propensity to show mercy where warranted. Why on earth would the ultimate salvation of all cause you to be more merciful? Shouldn't it have the opposite affect?

What sin was Christ's death not powerful enough to atone for?

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit which is essentially ignoring the truth that the Holy Spirit has delivered that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.

If you have not accepted of your own free will the gift of salvation offered by Jesus Christ, then His blood is not covering your sins and you will be thrown into the lake of fire.

He empties them out of it, doesn't He?

So that they may give an account of their lives and know why they are going into the lake of fire. He renders final judgment and they are, as they are not in the Lamb's Book of Life, tossed into the lake of fire for all eternity.

His word says nothing about there not being mercy after this judgment.

Again this is evidence as to why universalism is a dangerous false teaching. He doesn't have to say anything about there NOT being mercy after this judgment.

He tells you that they are thrown into the lake of fire for all eternity. Does that sound to you like He has extended mercy?

Hell is simply the grave. Of course there's mercy after that!

Where's your Biblical proof of this? My Bible says 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev. 20:13-15

They are called from the dead, judged and thrown into the lake of fire. Where's the mercy?

They are tossed into the Lake of Fire for an age. Not endlessly. The Scriptures did not originate in King James English.

Absolutely shameful that yall continue to put this forth. For this to be true would mean that God is not just and that He is a liar. As He is Just and not a man that He should lie, it means that this doctrine of universalism is a lie.

As was said before, it's obvious, by the confusion that is not of GOD that it breeds, that universalism is indeed a lie.

With all the ways Scripture already indicates that everyone sees salvation, what more are you looking for?

All what ways? Folks have taken one or two Scriptures and twisted the meanings and established this false teaching while ignoring the WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE that shows that not all will be saved.

One of the benefits of Christ conquering death is that it would no longer have its sting as those in Christ, those who have been saved, would immediately be in His presence.

Yet yall are attempting to sell this lie that all are saved and the sting of death is back and though you may go to the torment of Hell and the lake of fire for a while, you'll get out after an age. But in the same breath, you're supposedly witnessing the Good News?

When God's ready to give it to them, just as He does with anyone. Could anyone say, just by looking at you, at what point God would grant you His salvation? No.

And God's people say again, God is NOT a God of confusion. His Word says 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life John 3:16 My salvation came after I believed in Him.

Yet you're putting forth this doctrine that goes against what His Word says.

Those who have not believed go to hell. They are called out of hell and judged and tossed into the lake of fire for eternity because they have not believed. Yet yall would have folks believe that He gets them out of what He says is for eternity even thoughthey have not believed?

Either God is a liar or the ones espousing these false teachings of universalism are.

Does one's inability to predict when that moment would occur mean that He wasn't ever going to do it? No. Would someone who was relying on that question's being answered to their satisfaction use it's very unanswerability as an excuse not to believe it would ever happen? You bet

You would have someone base their eternal soul on something you don't know is going to take place and in which God's Word in NO WAY says is going to take place?

Seriously, how do some of yall witness for Christ and His Good News?

Do you tell folks that they will go to hell for a while, then get tossed into a burning lake of sulphur for a while, and then somewhere down the road, even though you have not believed in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, He's gonna pull you out of that eternal fire. His Word doesn't say that He will, but yall want folks to go through hell and a burning lake believing that He's gonna do something contrary to His Word and His Character?

Shameful.

Well, first off, we don't know who is and who isn't going to die unsaved. So telling them what you've outlined above is moot.

God's word doesn't say that the LOF is for eternity. It says it is for an age. Remember, God didn't have the Scriptures penned in King James English. [/COLOR]

Call it an age or whatever you like. God's Word also doesn't say that there will be a reprieve from the Lake of Fire but yall surely seem to be pushing that COMPLETELY unBIBLICAL statement.

 

[Zaac]

It's far more reassuring than the alternative.

Another difference is that Purgatory is believed to be for the atoning for sin. Christ's death took care of all atonement, so Purgatory, based on a works-salvation, is not Scriptural. Universal redemption is not based on works-salvation, either here or in the hereafter.

As for vague.... "Vague" is about as clear as anyone who hasn't died yet is going to get on exactly how things go down--and for how long--beyond the headstone. We can only go by Faith at this point.

______________________________​

"For as in Adam all die, ​

so in Christ all will be made alive." ​

~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~​

Neither is universal redemption based in God's Word. There is NO Biblical reason what soever for you or any other universalist to be telling folks that there is some sort of reprieve from the Lake of Fire.

 

[Zaac]

We can only go by Faith at this point

Ungh ungh. Faith is based in those things that God has told us to be true. As God has not said anything about there being a reprieve from the Lake of Fire, yall just guessing. That ain't got nothing to do with no faith.

 

[Zaac]

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42921311&postcount=326

Zaac, could you pinpoint where we have done this? Thanks in advance!

Where you keep insisting where they are gonna get out of the eternal fires of the lake at some point.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42921311&postcount=326

So... temporary suffering is worse than endless suffering? How do you figure that?

I didn't say anything about temprary suffering being worse than endless suffering.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42921311&postcount=326

You WILL get out down the road somewhere.

Biblical support for this. God's Word says for eternity. Where do you see in His Word that He says for eternity or for an age and then you get out?

You're guessing at stuff and misleading folks based upon something God's Word does not say.

 

[Crazy Liz]

They must, because whenever they sold an indulgence or prescribed a work to be done as penitence, they knew how many years off of Purgatory that indulgence or penitence was good for. How could they know that unless they knew what each sin was worth in Purgatorial years?

I went and asked, and apparently what you posted is a common misconception.

http://christianforums.com/t6771518...-details-about-purgatory-and-indulgences.html

 

[Zaac]

Okay, so, after death, what color are the hats people will be wearing? Will they be wearing hats? How many blondes will be present? Brunettes? Red-heads? How many males versus females? When you say "the judgment", how will that procedure look? Which individual gets judged first? How will that person react? Will it be breezy? Will God shine with a yellowish glow or a bluish one? Will people be standing? If so, will their knees be locked or slightly bent? What will be running through your mind when this day comes? What other friends and family of yours will be standing right next to you at that moment (be specific and certain about this, now -- no room for ambiguity here).

Again, this is shameless behavior with no regard for what Scripture says. God's Word says that judgment will take place and what will happen after this judgment. The procedural minutia is inconsequential.

What it does not say is that folks will be judged and then down the line given a reprieve. Every time God's Word speaks of judgment, He tells you what's going to happen. But because it fits the mold of universal redemption, yall gonna put forth this false doctrine that somewhere down the road after final judgment, God is gonna let folks out of the lake of fire.

Is He gonna let death and satan and the false prophet out also? After all, everyone is going to be reconciled to Him even after being thrown into the lake of fire.

You see, Hebrews 9:27 is very vague when one realizes how much more clarification could have been provided. [/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]
Nowhere in the verse does "the judgment" mean "endless torment". "The judgment" could just as easily be seen as God judging who has yet to be saved and making arrangements for that to occur.

Hebrews is only unclarified if you're looking for a meaning that ain't there. The judgment, consistent with the FULL COUNSEL of His Word, exactly what Revelation shows it to be.

Does one need to know how long an age is before it can be called an age?

Means nothing. You're still guessing. God hasn't said anything about there being a reprieve from the lake of fire. Yet yall are telling folks to go to hell and the lake of fire and you might get out somewhere down the road even though God's Word says nothing about this.

God is not a God of confusion. He hasn't left these things up in the air. Yall are throwing them up in the air and the confusion IS NOT of God.

It still takes faith to believe the Scriptures enough to go by them.

But you aren't going by them. You're guessing at something Scripture does not say.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Again, this is shameless behavior with no regard for what Scripture says. God's Word says that judgment will take place and what will happen after this judgment. The procedural minutia is inconsequential.

What it does not say is that folks will be judged and then down the line given a reprieve. Every time God's Word speaks of judgment, He tells you what's going to happen. But because it fits the mold of universal redemption, yall gonna put forth this false doctrine that somewhere down the road after final judgment, God is gonna let folks out of the lake of fire.

Is He gonna let death and satan and the false prophet out also? After all, everyone is going to be reconciled to Him even after being thrown into the lake of fire.




Hebrews is only unclarified if you're looking for a meaning that ain't there. The judgment, consistent with the FULL COUNSEL of His Word, exactly what Revelation shows it to be.



Means nothing. You're still guessing. God hasn't said anything about there being a reprieve from the lake of fire. Yet yall are telling folks to go to hell and the lake of fire and you might get out somewhere down the road even though God's Word says nothing about this.

God is not a God of confusion. He hasn't left these things up in the air. Yall are throwing them up in the air and the confusion IS NOT of God.




But you aren't going by them. You're guessing at something Scripture does not say.

Then why didn't God destroy Nineveh in 40 days?

I'm not a universalist, BTW, because like you, I can't find anything in scripture saying for sure that no one will be kept suffering under torment forever. However, I have studied the Bible enough to be pretty confident Jonah was right that it was in God's character not to destroy Nineveh, even after sending a prophet to announce it.

That is the kind of God I trust.

 

[Zaac]

Then why didn't God destroy Nineveh in 40 days?

I'm not a universalist, BTW, because like you, I can't find anything in scripture saying for sure that no one will be kept suffering under torment forever. However, I have studied the Bible enough to be pretty confident Jonah was right that it was in God's character not to destroy Nineveh, even after sending a prophet to announce it.

That is the kind of God I trust.

Because they confessed their sin and repented. That is the exact same thing that He is asking of men now. Repent and believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and like the Ninevites, you won't be taken to death and destruction.

That's the mercy that Chaela spoke of.

Man today has been extended that same mercy. But once death comes, that is it because judgment is upon you. That's why men have to choose to repent and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior while they are living.


Once you're dead and judgment has come, it's too late.

 

[Zecryphon]

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42921866&postcount=329
Okay, so, after death, what color are the hats people will be wearing? Will they be wearing hats? How many blondes will be present? Brunettes? Red-heads? How many males versus females? When you say "the judgment", how will that procedure look? Which individual gets judged first? How will that person react? Will it be breezy? Will God shine with a yellowish glow or a bluish one? Will people be standing? If so, will their knees be locked or slightly bent? What will be running through your mind when this day comes? What other friends and family of yours will be standing right next to you at that moment (be specific and certain about this, now -- no room for ambiguity here).
You see, Hebrews 9:27 is very vague when one realizes how much more clarification could have been provided.
Nowhere in the verse does "the judgment" mean "endless torment". "The judgment" could just as easily be seen as God judging who has yet to be saved and making arrangements for that to occur.
http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42921866&postcount=329
Does one need to know how long an age is before it can be called an age?
http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42921866&postcount=329

It still takes faith to believe the Scriptures enough to go by them.

______________________________​

"For as in Adam all die, ​

so in Christ all will be made alive." ​

~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~​

"Okay, so, after death, what color are the hats people will be wearing?"

No, hat's. Golden halos.

"Will they be wearing hats? How many blondes will be present? Brunettes? Red-heads? How many males versus females? When you say "the judgment", how will that procedure look?"

You said it was not possible to know what happened after death. I told you it was. You die and then you are judged. Why do you need to know about hats and hair color? Are those going to change your eternal destination?

"Which individual gets judged first? How will that person react? Will it be breezy? Will God shine with a yellowish glow or a bluish one? Will people be standing? If so, will their knees be locked or slightly bent? What will be running through your mind when this day comes?"

Christians are not present at the Great White Throne judgment so what's running through my mind at that judgment on that day is irrelevant.

"What other friends and family of yours will be standing right next to you at that moment (be specific and certain about this, now -- no room for ambiguity here)."

If there were scriptural support for any of this nonsense I would give it to you. You lack scriptural support for your assertion that we can't know what will happen beyond the headstone and therefore have to rely on faith. That claim of yours is refuted by Hebrews 9:27.

"You see, Hebrews 9:27 is very vague when one realizes how much more clarification could have been provided."

None of the stuff you have asked about is relevant to eternal salvation or judgment.

"Nowhere in the verse does "the judgment" mean "endless torment"."

That verse was not provided as evidence for endless torment. It was provided to refute your claim that all we have to rely upon is our faith when it comes to what happens after we die. That's not true. We know from this verse in Hebrews that we die and then we are judged.

""The judgment" could just as easily be seen as God judging who has yet to be saved and making arrangements for that to occur."

Yeah, if you wanna go beyond the text and read things into scripture that are not there, sure.

Quote:
You claim that it is only for an age people will suffer in the Lake of Fire. Where is your scriptural support for how long an age is and when people will get out of the Lake of Fire?

"Does one need to know how long an age is before it can be called an age?"

One should know if they're going to claim that a certain word definitely means age and not eternal. If I said my arm was a cubit long and not a foot. You would naturally want to know how long a cubit was and how I knew that, so I could make that claim.

Quote:
No, we can go by scriptures too.

"It still takes faith to believe the Scriptures enough to go by them."

No, you could do investigation into some of the claims of scripture to see if any of it is true.