Universalism: pros and cons

Floatingaxe · Jan 22, 2008

chaela said:
"God fearin'" is slang for "Christian".

We don't need any slang for "Christian". However, the deeper meaning of the term is important to this debate.

Our God is to be feared.

Rajni · Jan 22, 2008

From Post #282

This just goes against good theology. If a slave is free, you going to tell him he is free isn't going to change the way he behaves.

How do you figure that?

And if the spirit has already indwelled all, there's no need for you to tell them anything about being free and how they should be living.

Why do you suppose the spirit already indwells everyone?

You're speaking as though you going to tell them that they are free is what will cause them to start living as though they are free.

"How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" (Rom 10:15b)

Men are set free by the hearing of God's Word, not by hearing that they are no longer slaves with no other options.

Here I think is getting into semantics. The slave metaphor is used quite a bit in Scripture.

So what is making them free, your words or the Word of God?

Some do the planting, some do the watering, and God is the one who makes things grow. (1 Corinthians 3:7)

Tavita · Jan 22, 2008

Zaac said:
We got another thread going on the sinners prayer. A prayer ain't saved nobody. And if they are already saved, what are they saying a prayer for?

That's debatable. Prayer is 'part' of the process. Even if you say a big fat 'Yes!' to God, it's still prayer. Now, if someone's giving an emotional appeal and people come out the front or wherever in response to emotionalism, then I think that's false conversion. But there are others who will respond to an alter call wherein it's real, and they are converted by faith when they say the sinner's prayer. It's not the prayer that saves them, it's God giving that person His saving faith, and it's the response of the heart to the unction of the Holy Spirit. As I said in my previous post, all men have had the penalty of sin paid for them by Jesus sacrifice. He took the wrath of God for all mankind. But it still needs to be appropriated by the faith God gives by the individual themselves.

But they are all already saved so why are they coming to Christ?

Legally they have had their sins paid for and they have been redeemed, but they still need to appropriate it.

All are going to be saved. So you're saying that all will eventually go through the process of coming to faith in Jesus Christ...even the ones who have committed the unforgiveable sin?

Do you know of anyone who has committed the unforgiveable sin? That topic is highly debated by most scholars and theologians. I won't comment on it here, cuz I don't really know what it means. And yeah, I really don't know everything, for sure. And yes, I believe all will come through the process of coming to faith in Christ, if not in this lifetime, then in the ages to come.

You want them to know Jesus now. How do you know that He wants to know them now and not later? Now I ask this because you're making it sound like its because its what you want and not what God wants.

I don't. That's why I wait for the Holy Spirit to make the opportunities for sharing the gospel with individuals. If someone is standing against it now, how do you know they won't receive Him on their death beds? We don't have a clue. All we need to do is carry out the great commission whether we see fruit or not. What's it got to do with my will? I can't make anyone a believer or not. That's ridiculous. If it's in my heart that I want them to know Jesus.... who gives me the heart for that? Satan?

And if it still has to be appropriated in their lives, then it stands to reason that it is never appropriated in some lives

Yes, in this lifetime, true, most won't.

Crazy Liz · Jan 22, 2008

Zaac said:
This just goes against good theology.If a slave is free, you going to tell him he is free isn't going to change the way he behaves.

You think knowing about the Emancipation Proclamation made no difference to the freed slaves?

Tkjjc · Jan 22, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
We don't need any slang for "Christian". However, the deeper meaning of the term is important to this debate.

Our God is to be feared.

We don't need any slang for "Christian".

We don't? Aren't you a bible thumping, pew pounding, heaven bound, born again, Jesus freak like the rest of us? Slang is fun. Try it, you might loosen up a bit. But then again, maybe not.

Floatingaxe · Jan 22, 2008

Tkjjc said:
We don't? Aren't you a bible thumping, pew pounding, heaven bound, born again, Jesus freak like the rest of us? Slang is fun. Try it, you might loosen up a bit. But then again, maybe not.

My point was not made clear enough. God-fearing is what Satan is also. So, using that term means nothing. Just plain "Christian" is the appropriate label that we bear, that has been used for 2000 years.

I don't get my jollies being irreverent.

Tkjjc · Jan 22, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
My point was not made clear enough. God-fearing is what Satan is also. So, using that term means nothing. Just plain "Christian" is the appropriate label that we bear, that has been used for 2000 years.

I don't get my jollies being irreverent.

ROFL..

So God fearing is what Satan is, is why you stated that? You know the Anti-Christ will claim to be a Christian right? You know MANY will come to Jesus claiming to be Christians, but Christ will say "depart from me". I was trying to get you to loosen up a bit, but I guess I failed.

Floatingaxe · Jan 23, 2008

Tkjjc said:
I am not too sure. It say in Revelations that there will be a 1000 years of peace and then Satan is let loose for a season. I am not too sure that there eventually won't be a permanent purge of ALL evil, including those who still at that point turn away from Father. I would think that would be a conditional immortality of some sorts. He does have the power to destroy the soul, as the word says. But, for those right now in this earth realm, it says that we are clay and He, the Father, is the Potter. This means He hardens who He wishes and calls who He wishes. For that to be the end of it all for those people to whom wasn't called, it would seem almost sadistic in some way to punish those people for eternity when He was the reason they were hardened. You know what I mean? Like the Israelites being hardened, so the Gentiles can come to Christ.

God is the Potter to those of Him who are the clay. Those who are not His own are not clay in His hands at all. The problem with Universalism is that they read in all Scriptural passages that speak of God's relationship with us ithat they pertain to all mankind. They usually don't. They pertain usually to His own, His Church, the redeemed, blood-bought children in Jesus Christ.

Crazy Liz · Jan 23, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
God is the Potter to those of Him who are the clay. Those who are not His own are not clay in His hands at all. The problem with Universalism is that they read in all Scriptural passages that speak of God's relationship with us ithat they pertain to all mankind. They usually don't. They pertain usually to His own, His Church, the redeemed, blood-bought children in Jesus Christ.

I'm having trouble understanding all your posts that seem to say God doesn't love sinners.

Is that what you really mean, or am I misunderstanding?

Zecryphon · Jan 23, 2008

Tkjjc said:
We don't? Aren't you a bible thumping, pew pounding, heaven bound, born again, Jesus freak like the rest of us? Slang is fun. Try it, you might loosen up a bit. But then again, maybe not.

I can't speak for Axe, but I'm a Lutheran. As such, I am not allowed to either thump the Bible or pound the pew. I just sit there, quietly and remind myself that I am both saint and sinner and that salvation is God's work and I do nothing to merit it or attain it.

Woops, that smiley is too emotion filled.

That's more like it.

Zecryphon · Jan 23, 2008

Tkjjc said:
ROFL..

So God fearing is what Satan is, is why you stated that? You know the Anti-Christ will claim to be a Christian right? You know MANY will come to Jesus claiming to be Christians, but Christ will say "depart from me". I was trying to get you to loosen up a bit, but I guess I failed.

I thought the Anti-Christ would claim to be Christ Himself, not Christian.

Tkjjc · Jan 23, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
God is the Potter to those of Him who are the clay. Those who are not His own are not clay in His hands at all. The problem with Universalism is that they read in all Scriptural passages that speak of God's relationship with us ithat they pertain to all mankind. They usually don't. They pertain usually to His own, His Church, the redeemed, blood-bought children in Jesus Christ.

Now let me follow this rational. ALL of humankind are God's clay. And God calls those to whom He wishes, or do you not believe this?
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD .' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
So, how does one come to Jesus, unless Father has drawn those to whom He chose to Him? It says they will be ALL TAUGHT OF GOD. How? When? It says ALL, Floatingaxe. Not some, or a few, or a select, but ALL.

I really don't fit into any label or camp so to speak. I believe that ALL will have a opportunity, to serve God in this life or the next stage. Does this make me a Universalist? But then I don't rule out punishment either for the wicked and unrighteous people either. So let us look at this.

I accept the Word says, that a form of punishment will take place and people will be held accountable for what they have said and done.
So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
How does one give a accounting to God?

Jesus says:
"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."
"{It is} not what enters into the mouth {that} defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man."

This would tell me that everyone who has ever lived, will give an account unto God how they lived their life, and the things they said.

But what then of the "unrighteous"? We know the "righteous" are called by faith to Father, but to those to whom AGAIN were not called unto faith? Will God still be faithful to them, in the end? Or will they burn forever in a place called in English, hell? When you stop to think about the faithfulness of God, does this sound like a "just" God to you? But Paul does say:
"What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God,
will it? May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man a liar, as it is written, "THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED."But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?
If you read the rest of Romans 3, it will explain this more in detail.

But is this to say those who have been called for His purpose, and have heeded His calling, are more justified, in God's eyes? Yes! Because we have heeded the calling which was GIVEN to us, and have reconciled ourselves with the Holy and Just God, through His Son Jesus Christ, by becoming that which He has called us, we have been given the greatest of Gifts. We stand along side Jesus at the consummation of the ages, when ALL will give an accounting and be judged by the Living God, to ALL of His creation.
The sheep and the goats. The sheep Jesus says will be given the rewards, of following Him and His Father on earth. What is the rewards? Well, for starters, they can enter into the GATES of the City of God. There will be no other way to enter them, except through Jesus Christ. But there WILL BE those on the outside of these Gates. It says so here:
In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;

BUT:
and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

So does this mean there is still sinning after everything is done? Because this verse here tells me there is, but NOT INSIDE the Gates, for no sinner can enter inside, nor come into God's presence. Or these verses:

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

So here we have a theological problem. One one hand, we have this lake which burns throughout eternity, but on the other we have a Glorious City of God, with sinners outside the gates? We have nations bringing honor and glory into it. So where is the lake? Is it right outside the walls? How does one live in these times? Do the ones inside the Gates, eat of the Tree of Life, and live forever, and those outside the gates, live like they do now, with normal life spans, even though DEATH IS DESTROYED?

I may be a man in search of these and other Truths about God, and for me the best place to find them is in His Word, but if the Word is confusing, we must rely on God Himself to Teach us. This is what the Holy Spirit is for, to guide us in Truth. Does this mean you get hit ALL at once with Truth, or must you sincerely seek Him out, and let Truth GUIDE you? For me, I let Him guide. Let it take me where He wants. I trust Him.

And ye shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make you free. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all Truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, shall he speak: and He will shew you things to come. - Jesus

Do I not then take God at His Word, and Trust it? Or do I take man at his, even though ALL men are liars?

Rather, let God be found true, though every man a liar

I will give Him Glory, Praise, and His rightful Lordship over MY life. It is His to do with as He chooses, and guide me where He wishes. For those who do not hear, and see? That is between them and God, just as it is between me and God. Just as it is between YOU and God. For those to sit and cast judgment, which isn't theirs to cast, that also is between them and God. For in the manner in which they judge, they WILL BE JUDGED.

"DO NOT judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by YOUR standard of measure, it will be measured to YOU.

For me, if the "lake of fire" is a Truth, and that part was not misrepresented, then I want no part of it. I am not going to tell someone they will burn for eternity, and then be judged according to that standard. I shall pass on it. I leave that to God to decide. I follow Christ. And that verse above sounded like a commandment to me. "DO NOT JUDGE" is good enough. So I take leave of that part, and let God make those decisions.

But what of this FIRE? Well, pertaining to what I described above, about what and how one judges another, and what Jesus said concerning the tongue, is there anything else that might give us a clue in His word?

So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and it boasts of great things. See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire!

And the tongue is a fire, the WORLD of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of life, and is set on fire by hell.-James

"That which proceeds out of the man, THAT is what defiles the man."-Jesus

"And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' - Jesus

Seems to me that actions, are indeed not speaking LOUDER than WORDS.

My little children, let us NOT LOVE IN WORD, neither IN TONGUE; but in deed and in Truth.

WHY NOT?

The answer was already given above.

Rather, let God be FOUND true, though every man a liar

Rajni · Jan 23, 2008

People want to have their cake and eat it too when it comes to believing that salvation is not their doing but damnation somehow is.

If one believes in eternal punishment, coupled with the belief that those who end up eternally punished are responsible for that occurring, then one cannot avoid the logical conclusion of that reasoning, which is that they believe it's to their own credit that they themselves are going to heaven.

Now, if that is the case -- that one believes that those in hell are there because they deserved it, then they, logically, believe that they themselves deserve their own salvation. This is called "Salvation By Works".

This is also called "Unscriptural".

One might protest and say no, they really do believe that salvation is through Christ alone and not through good works. Great! Then one must then come to the realization that those who wind up in hell also do so through no personal effort of their own. Since one believes that it is God that chooses one's heavenly destination, one must therefore conclude that He also chooses others' hellish destination. If one acknowledges this, then welcome to Calvinism! To escape from the Calvinism camp, simply believe in the ultimate redemption of all. After all, God has no favorites, so if He will save a single person, He will save all people.

__________________________________________________

"For as in Adam all die,

so in Christ all will be made alive."

~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~

Zecryphon · Jan 23, 2008

chaela said:
People want to have their cake and eat it too when it comes to believing that salvation is not their doing but damnation somehow is.

If one believes in eternal punishment, coupled with the belief that those who end up eternally punished are responsible for that occurring, then one cannot avoid the logical conclusion of that reasoning, which is that they believe it's to their own credit that they themselves are going to heaven.

Now, if that is the case -- that one believes that those in hell are there because they deserved it, then they, logically, believe that they themselves deserve their own salvation. This is called "Salvation By Works".

This is also called "Unscriptural".

One might protest and say no, they really do believe that salvation is through Christ alone and not through good works. Great! Then one must then come to the realization that those who wind up in hell also do so through no personal effort of their own. Since one believes that it is God that chooses one's heavenly destination, one must therefore conclude that He also chooses others' hellish destination. If one acknowledges this, then welcome to Calvinism! To escape from the Calvinism camp, simply believe in the ultimate redemption of all. After all, God has no favorites, so if He will save a single person, He will save all people.

__________________________________________________

"For as in Adam all die,

so in Christ all will be made alive."

~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 ~

Luther handled that topic beautifully in The Bondage of the Will. You should read it sometime.

Floatingaxe · Jan 23, 2008

Crazy Liz said:
I'm having trouble understanding all your posts that seem to say God doesn't love sinners.

Is that what you really mean, or am I misunderstanding?

NO! That is not what I mean. God loves sinners. After all isn't that what I was before I met the Saviour?

God doesn't KNOW (intimate knowledge of) sinners. He only KNOWS (intimate knowledge of) His own family.

You must differentiate the scripture that points to God's relationship with His own people apart from those who are outside. Otherwise we are getting into universalist thought, which is anti-Gospel.

Crazy Liz · Jan 23, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
NO! That is not what I mean. God loves sinners. After all isn't that what I was before I met the Saviour?

God doesn't KNOW (intimate knowledge of) sinners. He only KNOWS (intimate knowledge of) His own family.

You must differentiate the scripture that points to God's relationship with His own people apart from those who are outside. Otherwise we are getting into universalist thought, which is anti-Gospel.

I'm still confused.

Are you now saying God isn't omniscient?

Floatingaxe · Jan 23, 2008

Crazy Liz said:
I'm still confused.

Are you now saying God isn't omniscient?

Why in the world would I be saying that? Do you read it? Are you baiting?

The word KNOW that He uses in this subject matter is always the same word that we see used in Genesis, where Adam KNEW his wife, Eve. Sexual intecourse. Sexual knowledge of a person. That is how God KNOWS us, His own, the Bride of Christ. Get it?

Crazy Liz · Jan 23, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
God is the Potter to those of Him who are the clay. Those who are not His own are not clay in His hands at all. The problem with Universalism is that they read in all Scriptural passages that speak of God's relationship with us ithat they pertain to all mankind. They usually don't. They pertain usually to His own, His Church, the redeemed, blood-bought children in Jesus Christ.

OK, let's get back to this.

The potter-clay analogy is about what God is able to do. God is in control & can decide what to do with the clay. Right?

It appears twice in the Bible, IIRC - in Jeremiah 18 and in Romans 9. In Jeremiah, it's talking about a something going wrong while a potter shapes a pot, and the potter being able to ball up the clay and start over again, making something different out of it. In Romans, it's talking about the potter being able to make from the same clay vessels for honor and vessels for dishonor.

It's the Romans passage I've heard used to argue one position or another about the potter choosing who goes to heaven & who goes to hell, and the clay having nothing to say about it. You're just whatever the potter decides to make you.

These are the arguments I'm familiar with, but you seem to be taking it a different direction, and I wish you would explain what you're trying to say in more detail because I've asked you several questions about this post & obviously I've done nothing but misunderstand.

[bible]romans 9:20-24[/bible]

Does vessels of wrath refer to those who are God's own, whom God knows intimately? God's own, God's Church, the redeemed, blood-bought children in Jesus Christ?

Why did you say the potter/clay analogy only applied to this group?

Floatingaxe · Jan 23, 2008

Crazy Liz said:
OK, let's get back to this.

The potter-clay analogy is about what God is able to do. God is in control & can decide what to do with the clay. Right?

It appears twice in the Bible, IIRC - in Jeremiah 18 and in Romans 9. In Jeremiah, it's talking about a something going wrong while a potter shapes a pot, and the potter being able to ball up the clay and start over again, making something different out of it. In Romans, it's talking about the potter being able to make from the same clay vessels for honor and vessels for dishonor.

It's the Romans passage I've heard used to argue one position or another about the potter choosing who goes to heaven & who goes to hell, and the clay having nothing to say about it. You're just whatever the potter decides to make you.

These are the arguments I'm familiar with, but you seem to be taking it a different direction, and I wish you would explain what you're trying to say in more detail because I've asked you several questions about this post & obviously I've done nothing but misunderstand.

[bible]romans 9:20-24[/bible]

Does vessels of wrath refer to those who are God's own, whom God knows intimately? God's own, God's Church, the redeemed, blood-bought children in Jesus Christ?

Why did you say the potter/clay analogy only applied to this group?

Read this Paraphrase--it's about only those He calls His--the saved (Jews and Gentiles alike):

Romans 9:2-24
Who in the world do you think you are to second-guess God? Do you for one moment suppose any of us knows enough to call God into question? Clay doesn't talk back to the fingers that mold it, saying, "Why did you shape me like this?" Isn't it obvious that a potter has a perfect right to shape one lump of clay into a vase for holding flowers and another into a pot for cooking beans? If God needs one style of pottery especially designed to show his angry displeasure and another style carefully crafted to show his glorious goodness, isn't that all right? Either or both happens to Jews, but it also happens to the other people.

Crazy Liz · Jan 23, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
Read this Paraphrase--it's about only those He calls His--the saved (Jews and Gentiles alike):

Romans 9:2-24
Who in the world do you think you are to second-guess God? Do you for one moment suppose any of us knows enough to call God into question? Clay doesn't talk back to the fingers that mold it, saying, "Why did you shape me like this?" Isn't it obvious that a potter has a perfect right to shape one lump of clay into a vase for holding flowers and another into a pot for cooking beans? If God needs one style of pottery especially designed to show his angry displeasure and another style carefully crafted to show his glorious goodness, isn't that all right? Either or both happens to Jews, but it also happens to the other people.

Whose paraphrase is that? It's sure different from the traditional interpretation.

I think "vessels of dishonor" probably means something more like a chamber pot than a pot for cooking beans - at least that's the way I've heard it interpreted before.

Would you like to study this passage?

Interesting, though, if God doesn't make "vessels of wrath" destined for eternal torment in hell, then I wonder what relevance your interpretation has, either for or against Ultimate Reconciliation. Is that something worth looking into?

Universalism: pros and cons

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