Universalism and 2 thessalonians

[john14_20]

I have not read or even looked through this whole thread but I wonder if anyone has ever read Hans Balthasar's Dare We Hope: That All Men Might Be Saved. It is a wonderfully written defense of universalism. You can find a review of the book and basic assent to its claim by Catholic Richard Neuhaus on his website First Things.

I have read it. It is a wonderful little book. I have also read his "A short discourse on hell", also excellent.

I am a big fan of his.

 

[Multi-Elis]

This is what you base your doctrine on? This is at best flimsy ground for a doctrine.

Regarding the eternity of hell, if it is not eternal, and people there are there temporarily, how is the decision made to decide how long they will be there?

If no one is lost eternally, why did Jesus die? Did He die for the fun of it? Did God make a tragic mistake by allowing His only begotten Son to suffer such a death?

If hell is not forever, without believing in Jesus, how are the sins of those in hell to be forgiven? How can one be purified of sin without the blood of Jesus?

This sounds to me like eternal:

DaveS touched on some of these questions, but since they were also directed at me, I'll give my point of view:

As for basing my doctrine: I hold the gospels credible for the same reason I hold the NDE testamonies credible. I take both with a grain of salt. When a police man hears two witnesses who say exactly the same story in all its details, he can be sure they are lying. When he hears two witnesses tell the same story in essence but that differ in point of view, details, interpretation, etc, he can be pretty sure that there is truth in the story, even though the exact details might not be true. So when I have two witnesses who tell me the same stories in essence about Jesus (John vrs. Matt, Mark & Luke), I know this is either the greatest bluff ever written, or else there is truth in it.
When many witnesses either died or had serious out of body experiences, and come back to tell us stories that are in essence the same, but differ in detail and subjective interpretation, then either this is the greatest mechanism our brains posess to comfort us before death, or else there is truth in what they say, even if the details aren't perfectly correct.
What's more, I have two witnesses that tell me the same story in essence about Jesus, but differ in many of the details. Death Experiencers and the Gospels, these are my two witnesses besides my own experience.

Following this logic, I have the teachings of Jesus that refer to eternal hell, and the witness of death experiencers who refer to a hell that is only eternal for the demons. By my standard, there is just as much reason to believe both. With one difference: the fruit it bares in my life: I feel free to love people when I realize they are all pre-destained to go to heaven, or I should say, even the higher realms of heaven. When I think they are going to hell because they are bad, this makes me forget that they are ment to become children of God. So I'd rather hold the former belief, knowing I could be wrong, and seek to spread the good news so that people will be able to fullfill their destany. I could belive the latter, and frantically beg people to steer away from hell. But actually, even if Hell isn't eternal, there is still reason to beg people to steer away from it.

As for who makes the decision on when you get out of Hell, frankly, I can only give you theories I've heared. (Theories are just that--theories) When a person in hell finally repents or calls out to Jesus. A person can be assigned to someone else to learn by observation how to call out to Jesus. People praying for specific people in Hell. People praying for ghosts attached by addiction to this world.

As for Jesus' death and resurection, I too sometimes struggle to understand. For the moment, I feel that Jesus' death was proof of God's love (no greater love is there than he who would die for a friend.) Jesus came to show the way to love and to the father, for those who recognized that they are lacking in this area (I fall in this catagory--Jesus came to save the sick, not the healthy). Jesus showed that to love, one must sometimes die--only to rise again even more powerfull. He's been through it, so he's best able to leed us there. I'm sure that when we are dealing with sin, and repenting of it, knowing that Jesus died for us allows us to understand that God's love is not stopped because we sinned, he payed too high of a price to be stopped at this. This allows us to accept forgiveness for hurting God's creation (ourselves, others, etc) and to go back to Him. Then there is a whole section that might be correlated with myth: but a true myth: notice that some pagans have rituals of one person dying so that everybody can have a good crop. Some are even canables. Notice that the jews had to sacrifice innocent animals to God. After the sacrifice, they ate it. Jesus fullfills both. Fo me as a gentail, I watch as my savior died for the better of us all, and canabilistically eat his flesh in communion. Notice that a Jew who believes in Jesus, watches the passover lamb sacrificed, and then eats the sacrifiece in communion. This latter part is just ideas, I don't know if there is any rational explination to them, but it's hardwired in our system. At least, that is what I feel. I am sure there is much more to his death and resurection, but it's so much more complexe and amazing than just the sacrifice for sins part.

Lastly the verses you quoted to me about hell being eternal don't come from the one to whom I listen: Jesus. He did talk about eternal gnashing of teeth, etc, eternal fire, etc, but you see it is only because He alluded to it that I am not sure of very much. But all the others apostles, are not Jesus. And as you said, they didn't rise from the dead. I tell you again, it was very hard for me to accept universalism as discribed by the NDEs, because of Jesus' talking about an eternal ghena. But seeing how this detail is not what gets me to heaven, how believing in universalism has freed me to love all the sinners and not juge them, (there is no more them and us) seeing how it seems to me more in accord with God's hand not being too short to save, and in accord with His love, I realized I would just be a hypocrite to deny what I already accepted unconciously. It does make verbal theological evangelism difficult, (read more about it in the thread Evangelism--when you are a liberal christian) but doesn't stop me from evangelising with the hope to see people living out what God destined for them to live, and learning what God sent us here to learn.

 

[GreenPartyVoter]

Speaking of NDEs and experiences, I think I had a sleep paralysis dream rather than an NDE, unless my heart stopped while I was sleeping.. but that would have been unlikely for the healthy 21 year old I was at the time. All I know is that it felt very real and when I woke up I was very confused to be in a bed and not in the place of my dream. (But dreams are important too, or God would not have used them so much in the Bible.)

In my dream I was running through the field behind my folks' house. I felt, rather than saw two beings alongside me. (They were not visible to the naked eye, but I knew they were there.)

They told me (in my head, not with spoken voices) to, "Jump. JUMP!"

I told them I didn't understand what they meant. So as we were running along one got in front of me and pulled and the other got behind and pushed and I felt this horrible "ripping" sensation of my soul leaving my body that was felt like it was both only an instant and eternal. It didn't hurt exactly, but was very much like the old fingernails on a blackboard feeling.

And then it was over and I was in a place of complete blackness. My guides were gone, but I realized then that I was in what looked very much like a picture of a magenta-colored space nebula, minus all the stars. I was part of the nebula and it was part of me. And I was myself, but at the same time I could feel and hear many others there too. We were ONE but individuals at the same time. I could not tell where I ended and they began.

And it was blissfully content there. So much peace and happiness.

Now, I cannot tell anyone what this was. A visit to heaven? A dream about it? Maybe a waystation where you go while you wait for judgement? I don't know. I do know that I did not experience a judgement, but maybe I was not there long enough to do so.

Anyway, it certainly changed my idea of heaven being a middle eastern city with streets of gold and choirs of angels singing on every corner.

 

[Raphael777]

I often think the issue of universalism is built upon the false notion that an eternal hell contradicts one of God's most important attributes, His goodness (benevolence). Even so, Jesus, whose ministry emphasises the mercy and love of God, often speaks of Gehenna, of that 'fire that can never be put out' (Mark 9:43 cf. Mt 5:22, 29; 10:28; 13:42, 50 Mk 9:43-48 ...)

It seems, to me, that the existence of hell stems from God's appreciation of the freewill of His children. In order that we gain eternal life, we must freely accept God's love and mercy, we must freely choose to love Him. He cannot force us to love Him. He cannot force us to be with Him in heaven. He wishes no one to go to hell. Rather, a wilful turning away and an intrinsic rejection of God (and persistence in it to the end) is necessary. This wilful turning away from God has traditionally been understood as 'mortal sin'. It necessarily entails a preference to darkness (John 3:19). In this sense, we are partially our own judges (John 3:18); we determine our own eternal future through our acceptance or rejection of God. Hell is therefore a state of total self-exclusion from God - which is the primary torment of hell causing 'men [to] weep and gnash their teeth' (Matthew 22:13), since, to quote St. Thomas Aquinas, 'God alone satisfies'.

This eternal separation from God is the greatest torment the damned experience, because God, our Creator, is our source of happiness, of peace, of love, and without Him we are intrinsically dark and cold. The idea that God 'loves' to inflict punishment on those souls who have rejected Him is something I personally reject. The 'eternal fire' - so often used to describe hell in the Bible and by the early Chrurch Fathers, like Irenaeus - may symobolise the torment of self-exclusion from God, or may be understood literally, as a spirtual fire that consumes the soul in a way distinct from 'natural' ordinary fire, and which is a consequence to the nature of this sin of complete rejection.

Even so, God is fully aware that full communion with Him in heaven will make us truly happy, but this is not something He can force onto people, out of respect for our own dignity. This may mean people who willingly reject Him in a complete and absolute sense, out of hatred, suffer from their state of self-exclusion, but forcing them to accept Him would mean they do not 'love' him! We can only truly love, when we are free to do so - robots cannot love.

 

[DaveS]

Nothing there that I don't agree with except possibly the 'eternal' part. I think it is only eternal for those who choose it to be, who cannot accept God's love. I maintain that the next liffe is just that, we can still choose. If we choose to love God in the next life then it has an equally redemptive quality as it does in this life.

 

[Raphael777]

Nothing there that I don't agree with except possibly the 'eternal' part. I think it is only eternal for those who choose it to be, who cannot accept God's love. I maintain that the next liffe is just that, we can still choose. If we choose to love God in the next life then it has an equally redemptive quality as it does in this life.

To quote St. John Damascene, 'There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death'.

It is the character of this intrinsic rejection of God (traditionally understood as 'mortal sin' cf. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10) which makes hell eternal. Death marks the end of our opportunity to accept or reject God, since our soul at death remains in that state. The eternal nature of hell is made clear in various Biblical passages (cf. Mark 9:47–48; Revelation 14:11), as well as the writings of the Early Church Fathers, which if you would like i might quote.

 

[apenman]

To quote St. John Damascene, 'There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death'.

It is the character of this intrinsic rejection of God (traditionally understood as 'mortal sin' cf. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10) which makes hell eternal. Death marks the end of our opportunity to accept or reject God, since our soul at death remains in that state. The eternal nature of hell is made clear in various Biblical passages (cf. Mark 9:47–48; Revelation 14:11), as well as the writings of the Early Church Fathers, which if you would like i might quote.

The last to be thrown into the lake of fire is hell & death, so at that point hell itself comes to an end. The second death is complete destruction, which in itself is an eternal punishment.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

but forcing them to accept Him would mean they do not 'love' Him - to put it crudely, this would be a bit like rape! We can only truly love, when we are free to do so - robots cannot love.

Not only was this put crudely it was put incorrectly.
Rape is about power.
It has nothing to with love or sexual desire and it doesn't even belong in same sentence.

 

[mortsmune]

Simple! We understand "what it means" to believe.

It is a righteousness that is by faith "from first to last", and "all that matters is faith expressing itself through love". So, love is the proof of faith, and love is the fulfillment of the law, that being the law of Christ, which is "love one another". Anyone who fulfills that law, from first to last, has also proved that they believed, and that they knew his voice. No other proof is required.

I believe that love is the proof of faith. However, you said that salvation was not related to what they believed. Many scriptures tell us that faith is toward or in Jesus Christ and who He is and especially that He is savior and that He rose from the dead. For example:

Rom 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Love is not how one obtains salvation. It is the mark and result of salvation. You seem to be bypassing the entire issue of sin and forgiveness. Doing good acts, no matter how loving, cannot undue the guilt of sin.

Rom 3:24-25 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

What about the Cross? What about the great suffering of the Son of God? Do you believe it was for nought? That Jesus of Nazareth was some sort of cosmic Fool?

 

[apenman]

I believe that love is the proof of faith. However, you said that salvation was not related to what they believed. Many scriptures tell us that faith is toward or in Jesus Christ and who He is and especially that He is savior and that He rose from the dead. For example:

Rom 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Love is not how one obtains salvation. It is the mark and result of salvation. You seem to be bypassing the entire issue of sin and forgiveness. Doing good acts, no matter how loving, cannot undue the guilt of sin.

Rom 3:24-25 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

What about the Cross? What about the great suffering of the Son of God? Do you believe it was for nought? That Jesus of Nazareth was some sort of cosmic Fool?

Again, you do not seem to realize that the sacrifice of Christ is applicable to all people, and that all things are under Christ. The following is an examination of what occured when Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead.


1. Christ pays the price for all sin.

Understanding that the sacrifice of Christ is applicable to every person who has ever, or will ever live is "square one" in understanding scripture. If we fail to understand this point, then everything after that will just be a series of mistakes. Here is the proof-text:

1 John 2:2, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (NIV)

Now, let's ask the question, what is John stating here?? He says our sins, meaning Christians, and then goes on to say, not only ours but the whole world. If John was saying that the sacrifice of Christ was only paying the price for Christian sin, he would have stopped at the word our. Instead, he goes beyond the context of our, meaning Christian sin, and adds the context of all sin, being the whole world.



2. All things are place under Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:27, 'For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.' (NIV)

And:

Hebrews 2:8, 'and put everything under his feet." In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.' (NIV)

So, from the verses above we see that "everything" is under Christ, and that the only exception to this is God himself. This includes every single human being who has ever or will ever live.

note: Now, this is what most Christians miss, that Christ took charge of "the entire creation" from beginning to end. Christ's sacrifice is applicable to all people without exception, and this is what places "all things" under Christ, so he then becomes "Lord of all" and "judge of all" from beginning to end. So, many Christians see the whole world as going to hell, and it's only when a person believes that they come under Christ, but this is simply not accurate, the fact is all people are under Christ.



3. The priesthood and law change.

Hebrews 7:11-12, "If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come -- one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law." (NIV)

So, we clearly see by the proof-text provided above that there was "a change of the priesthood" and that there was also a change of the law. This change of the law is from the law of Moses, to the law of Christ. Here is the KJ:

Hebrews 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (KJV)

So, where in scripture where do we see this "new" law of Christ??

John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. (NIV)

So, here is the new command and it is recognized by Paul:

1 Corinthians 9:21 (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law) (NIV)

So, we are under Christ's law, and this is true for everyone because the sacrifice of Christ is applicable to everyone.

So, the priesthood of Aaron and the law of Moses were both replaced by the priesthood of Christ and the law of Christ.

Galatians 6:2, "Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ." (NIV)



4. In the end Christ judges EVERYONE under the law of Christ.

So, Christ pays the price for all sin, the priesthood and law are changed, and all things are placed under Christ, which includes every single human being. So, what's left??

The last piece to the puzzle is the judgment of Christ, under the law of Christ, which is the sheep and the goats. This is the exact judgment that James describes in the following verse:

James 2:12-13, "Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!" (NIV)

So, what is "the law that gives freedom"?? It cannot be the law of Moses which Paul calls the "law of sin and death", so it can only be the law of Christ, which is "love one another".

So, love is the fulfillment of the law, that being the law of Christ, and faith is expressed through love:

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. (NIV)

So, love and faith are connected, and love is what fulfills the law of Christ.

Romans 1:17, "For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." (NIV)

So, it is "a righteousness that is by faith from first to last", which means the standard of this faith can be applied to anyone, including those who lived before Christ. So, what is the connection between this faith and believing in Christ??

Well, the law of Christ is "love one another", faith is expressed through love, and love is the fulfillment of the law. This is a standard that can be applied to anyone from beginning to end, and it is the exact judgment we see in the sheep and the goats, which is the judgment of Christ.



So, what I have said above is why the following scripture is applicable to both Christians & non-Christians:


Romans 2:6-15, God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) (NIV)
And,

Romans 13:8-10, 8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 [font=Helv,Arial]Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. (NIV)[/font]

[font=Helv,Arial]So, the statement "he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law", is applicable to anyone, because the sacrifice of Christ is applicable to everyone.

[/font]

 

[mortsmune]

Again, you do not seem to realize that the sacrifice of Christ is applicable to all people, and that all things are under Christ. The following is an examination of what occured when Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead.

No I do realize this.

1. Christ pays the price for all sin.

Understanding that the sacrifice of Christ is applicable to every person who has ever, or will ever live is "square one" in understanding scripture. If we fail to understand this point, then everything after that will just be a series of mistakes. Here is the proof-text:

1 John 2:2, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (NIV)

Now, let's ask the question, what is John stating here?? He says our sins, meaning Christians, and then goes on to say, not only ours but the whole world. If John was saying that the sacrifice of Christ was only paying the price for Christian sin, he would have stopped at the word our. Instead, he goes beyond the context of our, meaning Christian sin, and adds the context of all sin, being the whole world.

However, you do not seem to realize that that sacrifice does not cover all without faith. Provision is not the same as application. The provision is universal. The application is not. "That WHOSEVER BELIEVES ON HIM should not perish but have everlasting life. There is a great contingency here. Jesus did die for everyone, but not everyone believes. You are ignoring what the Bible says about the necessity of faith.

2. All things are place under Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:27, 'For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.' (NIV)

And:

Hebrews 2:8, 'and put everything under his feet." In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.' (NIV)

So, from the verses above we see that "everything" is under Christ, and that the only exception to this is God himself. This includes every single human being who has ever or will ever live.

note: Now, this is what most Christians miss, that Christ took charge of "the entire creation" from beginning to end. Christ's sacrifice is applicable to all people without exception, and this is what places "all things" under Christ, so he then becomes "Lord of all" and "judge of all" from beginning to end. So, many Christians see the whole world as going to hell, and it's only when a person believes that they come under Christ, but this is simply not accurate, the fact is all people are under Christ.

Being under His feet does not mean that those things are saved or redeemed. Hell itself and Satan are under his feet, but there is no indication that they will be redeemed.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Forever and ever sees to settle that point.

Demons were "subject to" Jesus when he walked the earth. That does not mean they were saved or under the grace of God. To be under is talking about authority and rulership, not redemption and adoption as sons and daughters.

3. The priesthood and law change.

Hebrews 7:11-12, "If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come -- one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law." (NIV)

So, we clearly see by the proof-text provided above that there was "a change of the priesthood" and that there was also a change of the law. This change of the law is from the law of Moses, to the law of Christ. Here is the KJ:
Hebrews 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (KJV)

I have no disagreement with this.

So, where in scripture where do we see this "new" law of Christ??

John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. (NIV)

So, here is the new command and it is recognized by Paul:

1 Corinthians 9:21 (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law) (NIV)

So, we are under Christ's law, and this is true for everyone because the sacrifice of Christ is applicable to everyone.

No, this is not true. The sacrifice was potentially applicable to everyone. It is applied to those who believe.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

So, the priesthood of Aaron and the law of Moses were both replaced by the priesthood of Christ and the law of Christ.

This is true.

Galatians 6:2, "Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ." (NIV)

This is referring to believers carrying one another's burdens.

4. In the end Christ judges EVERYONE under the law of Christ.

So, Christ pays the price for all sin, the priesthood and law are changed, and all things are placed under Christ, which includes every single human being. So, what's left??

Two errors are present here. One is the confusing of the concept of authority and dominion (placed under) with redemption. The other is the assumption that because Christ died for all that all are saved. This is not what the Bible says. You cannot rightfully take some scriptures and leave out others. Again and again the Bible says that salvation comes by faith in Jesus.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The last piece to the puzzle is the judgment of Christ, under the law of Christ, which is the sheep and the goats. This is the exact judgment that James describes in the following verse:

James 2:12-13, "Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!" (NIV)

So, what is "the law that gives freedom"?? It cannot be the law of Moses which Paul calls the "law of sin and death", so it can only be the law of Christ, which is "love one another".

So, love is the fulfillment of the law, that being the law of Christ, and faith is expressed through love:

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. (NIV)

So, love and faith are connected, and love is what fulfills the law of Christ.

Again, you cannot use the sheep and goats parable while ignoring the many verses, and even the words of Jesus Himself, that state the necessity of faith.

Also, if you say that the Cross saves everyone, then why are the goats condemned? The goats are condemned; why were they not redeemded under the caption of "everyone"?

Romans 1:17, "For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." (NIV)

So, it is "a righteousness that is by faith from first to last", which means the standard of this faith can be applied to anyone, including those who lived before Christ. So, what is the connection between this faith and believing in Christ??

Well, the law of Christ is "love one another", faith is expressed through love, and love is the fulfillment of the law. This is a standard that can be applied to anyone from beginning to end, and it is the exact judgment we see in the sheep and the goats, which is the judgment of Christ.

Again, faith is in Jesus and His death and resurrection. This cannot be circumvented. Love is the fruit of that faith and the result of the Holy Spirit coming into a redeemed person. Faith is not equated as love. You are confusing the difference between the thing itself (faith, which simply means "believing" or "trusting") with the result or fruit of faith, which is love. Faith is expressed through love, but faith is not no love itself. Faith is believing. You cannot take words and assign whatever meaning you choose to them. Faith is BELIEVING and specifically, from the stanpoint of the biblical faith, it is believing in Jesus and His Cross and resurrection. The Bible is explicitly clear on this. The Bible is also explicitly clear that it is the believing that applies the redemption of the Cross to a person.

So, what I have said above is why the following scripture is applicable to both Christians & non-Christians:


Romans 2:6-15, God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) (NIV)
And,

Romans 13:8-10, 8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 [font=Helv,Arial]Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. (NIV)[/font]

[font=Helv,Arial]So, the statement "he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law", is applicable to anyone, because the sacrifice of Christ is applicable to everyone.

[/font]

You are correct that it applies to all. However, you are leaving out some important data. That is that the Bible says that man has utterly failed in that regard. We do not by nature love our fellow man. That is the problem. The Bible says "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Rom 3:23) and:
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The lostness of mankind is why Jesus had to die. Believing is how the redemption He provided is applied. Love is what flows from the faith and subsequent indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[apenman]

No I do realize this.


However, you do not seem to realize that that sacrifice does not cover all without faith. Provision is not the same as application. The provision is universal. The application is not. "That WHOSEVER BELIEVES ON HIM should not perish but have everlasting life. There is a great contingency here. Jesus did die for everyone, but not everyone believes. You are ignoring what the Bible says about the necessity of faith.

No, this is not true. The sacrifice was potentially applicable to everyone. It is applied to those who believe.

OK, let's go back to square one here:

1 John 2:2, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (NIV)

The sacrifice of Christ is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. If one does not understand this, then one does not understand the sacrifice of Christ. It is not "potentially applicable" to everyone, but only applied to those who believe, this is completely inaccurate.

When Christ died on the cross, and rose from the dead, he paid the price for all sin, without exception, and that sacrifice was applicable to all, right then and there, for all time. Now, this does not mean that all are saved, instead it means that all will answer to Christ. In fact, it is this sacrifice, and the fact that it is applicable to all, that makes him "Lord of all", and judge of all, and he is the only judge.

Now, all things are placed under him, which includes every single human being, from beginning to end, and Satan and all his followers, Christ in fact judges them all. The issue for all people then is, who has lived by faith, because it is a righteousness that is by faith "from first to last" which means the same standard will be applied to all people.

This is why we don't see any judgment in scripture in which people are judged by what they believed, because the same standard will be applied to all, and this includes those who lived before Christ. Furthermore, there are many who reject Christ only because he is misrepesented by religion, especially the Christian religion, and they too will be judged under the law of Christ the same as everyone, and if their faith fulfills that law then they are fine.

Faith is expressed as love, love is the fullfillment of the law, that being the law of Christ, and all are judged the same under that law becuase the sacrifice of Christ is applicable to all. If one does not understand this, then one cannot possibly understand salvation.

 

[Raphael777]

Not only was this put crudely it was put incorrectly.
Rape is about power.
It has nothing to with love or sexual desire and it doesn't even belong in same sentence.

You're right.

 

[Raphael777]

The last to be thrown into the lake of fire is hell & death, so at that point hell itself comes to an end. The second death is complete destruction, which in itself is an eternal punishment.

'Then Death and Hades (the netherworld) were thrown into the pool of fire. This pool of fire is the second death' (Revelation 20:14). The Biblical concept of 'spiritual death' is not an annihilation, but an eternal separation from God (cf. Genesis 3; Ephesians 2:1). This 'pool [or lake] of fire' cannot possibly be viewed as 'complete destruction' in view of verse 11, which asserts, 'There [in the pool of fire and sulfur] they will be tormented day and night forever and ever'. The heresy of annihilation does appear to directly conflict with passages of Scripture that explicity speak of the eternal nature of hell (Isaiah 66:24; Matthew 25:41; 1 Thes. 1:9).

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

v8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Context here is to the Church. The phrase them that know not God refers to those who do not cherish God. To cherish something implies prior knowledge, experience and relationship. This is not a verse describing the unchurched, but the Church - which is backed up by the context of this passge, particulrarly...

v10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe

v11 that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling

and, of course the fact that this is a letter to Chruches in Thessalonia!!!

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

I said it b4 and i'll say it again and again and again:

What is more contagious: your holiness, or "their" sin?
What is more contagious: your holiness, or "their" sin?
What is more contagious: your holiness, or "their" sin?
What is more contagious: your holiness, or "their" sin?
What is more contagious: your holiness, or "their" sin?
What is more contagious: your holiness, or "their" sin?
What is more contagious: your holiness, or "their" sin?
What is more contagious: your holiness, or "their" sin?
What is more contagious: your holiness, or "their" sin?
What is more contagious: your holiness, or "their" sin?
What is more contagious: your holiness, or "their" sin?
What is more contagious: your holiness, or "their" sin?
What is more contagious: your holiness, or "their" sin?

 

[apenman]

'Then Death and Hades (the netherworld) were thrown into the pool of fire. This pool of fire is the second death' (Revelation 20:14). The Biblical concept of 'spiritual death' is not an annihilation, but an eternal separation from God (cf. Genesis 3; Ephesians 2:1). This 'pool [or lake] of fire' cannot possibly be viewed as 'complete destruction' in view of verse 11, which asserts, 'There [in the pool of fire and sulfur] they will be tormented day and night forever and ever'. The heresy of annihilation does appear to directly conflict with passages of Scripture that explicity speak of the eternal nature of hell (Isaiah 66:24; Matthew 25:41; 1 Thes. 1:9).

Actually, scripture makes it quite clear that God alone is immortal, and there is no evidence, at all, that any of the people going into the lake of fire were able to eat from the tree of life, and therefore live forever. So, it is far more likely that they are simply destroyed, and that in itself is an eternal punishment. No, there is no heresy here.

Also, which verse 11 are you refering to above??

 

[Raphael777]

v8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Context here is to the Church. The phrase them that know not God refers to those who do not cherish God. To cherish something implies prior knowledge, experience and relationship. This is not a verse describing the unchurched, but the Church - which is backed up by the context of this passge, particulrarly...

v10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe

v11 that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling

and, of course the fact that this is a letter to Chruches in Thessalonia!!!

The passage indeed addresses those who culpably 'refuse to accept the gospel of our Lord Jesus' (1 Thess. 1:8 JB), which implies that they possess knowledge of the gospel and have yet rejected it in an intrinsic way. This does not necessary mean they have been 'churched'; rather, it incoperates anyone who has received the fullness of the revelation of God and have rejected it - or refuse to enter or remain within the Church, despite knowing it was founded as necessary for salvation by God through Jesus.

I believe that those who, through no fault of their own, have no knowledge of Christ's Gospel and His Church, but seek God with a sincere heart and follow His will as best as they understand it according to their consciences (cf. Romans 2:14-15), possess a desire for Baptism and can therefore be saved.

 

[ahab]

What is more contagious: your holiness, or "their" sin?

I would say sin seduces and is more contageous. i would say we are made holy through Christ Jesus, He is our holiness.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

How does this affect how you relate to non-Christians?