Universalism and 2 thessalonians

[mortsmune]

All Christians pick and choose. It is a question of the degree to which they do this. Some churches hold to Levitical law down the line, others serve pork and lobster at their Sunday School picnics.

Most of them don't reject the Cross and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[DaveS]

It's not dramatic. It's succinct. Christians who believe Christ is the only way to heaven see two choices: confess His name and go to Heaven, or not. (regardless of the quality of life one has led.)

May I also point out the trinity concept. If you go to heaven through Christ then you must be able to go to heaven through God and the Holy Spirit. To suggest that believing in God wont actually do anything for you is a bit weird..

I am saying that you can come to grips with sin and guilt and experience the grace of God through other religions. In no way does that spit upon Christianity.

Admittedly, it is easier to get to heaven through Christ however as Christ created a new law however.

"For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

That is not a good example. It is open to interpretation as that could be referring to God or Jesus.

If you are going to give credence to Bible at all as having authority, then interpret it honestly and take things in context. Otherwise, just make up whatever beliefs you want and believe them simply because that is what you want to believe and forget about the Bible altogether. Don't pick your belief and then try to justify it by taking scriptures out of context and misinterpreting them.

Look above...

Of course it is dramatic. Quality of life lived is the problem with all humanity. None is righteous, no, not one. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Matthew 25:34-40....

 

[GreenPartyVoter]

Most of them don't reject the Cross and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I don't reject them. I am open to them being literally true or a parable. Either way I get the message. God loves me enough to Die for me or let His Son die for me.

That is one of the things that draws me to Christianity, along with Jesus being an example of the best of humanity. I like that it focuses on the love of God to the extent that it does.

But since I was not raised in other faiths I cannot say that other people aren't taught baout the love of God there or not. Just as anyone can pick up a textbook on Christianity and say this faith is comprised of these items, and still get it "wrong" because they don't allow for all the variations in the vision, so can I get it wrong about other faiths just by glancing at a textbook. I haven't lived it so I don't know how other faiths treat the idea of God's love.

I do, however, believe in God's love and ability to transmit that love anywhere and anytime. Even through other faiths.

 

[DaveS]

Most of them don't reject the Cross and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

And neither does any of us if you are suggesting what I think you are suggesting.
Let me interpret;
'You are going to hell, I am saved, I have the power to judge because I'm a proper Christian while you are not.'

 

[GreenPartyVoter]

Upon what authority do you state that the hell of the Bible is not literally what is says? By what authority do you know that Christ is not the only way to salvation?

I know your answer to your case that Christ is the only way is that your authority is the Bible. However, I believe in free will even unto the writers, organizers, and interpreters of the Bible. That means that just as people can see what they want in the Bible now, so could the writers and interpreters inject their thoughts and feelings into the Scripture originally.

Otherwise, why have people write it down if He was just dictating it and using them as puppets to do the writing? He could have just handed the entire book down on some mountaintop somewhere.

 

[mortsmune]

As you can see, love is fulfilement of the law, the law is witness of belief. Therefore, if you love, you believe whether you know it or not.

I would not deny the scriptures say that. I would also not say that people who do not know about Jesus may not be saved. However, many people purposely want to not believe in Jesus and still think that they can find God and salvation. To consciously reject Jesus is a whole other thing.

Without an absolute standard to define it, who is to say what love is. The Bible reveals to us God's opinion of what love is. If you reject that, then anyone could say that anything is love or good or right or wrong. There are many who believe that there is no absolute right and wrong. Without an objective, absolute standard, that would be the only logical conclusion.

When all is said and done, it is a historical fact that Jesus of Nazareth died and rose from the dead. That carries a great deal of authority to my thinking.

Now onto the baptism bit which is, of course, symbolic.

You say "of course" as if this should be self-evident fact. It is part of the faith in Christ and obedience to Him.

Ahh.. now we've got to the bit where it is suggested that someobe is not a proper Christian.. who are we to judge?

My point was that if someone is going to deny the most basic beliefs of Christianity, i.e., the Cross and resurrection of Jesus, and the salvation through His name, what is Christian about that person's belief? Why even claim the name? It defies logic.

Everyone is potentially saved. Why would Christ go around going.. right I'll pick you... and you.. Besides, Christianity started when Christ died and rose again, free will dictates and Christianity dictates that anyone can become Christian, therefore, everyone had to be saved.

Yes, anyone can become a Christian, and everyone is potentially saved. Between potentiality and actuality, there is great big IF. Potential does not mean factual. Potential is only a possibility.

 

[DaveS]

I would not deny the scriptures say that. I would also not say that people who do not know about Jesus may not be saved. However, many people purposely want to not believe in Jesus and still think that they can find God and salvation. To consciously reject Jesus is a whole other thing.

BUT they believe in God. That is another of the pathways available in the trinity. To love one is to love all after all as Jesus said himself, 'if you love me you love my father'. It would thus follow that if you love God you love Jesus.
With regards to rejection, it depends on circumstances I suppose. I would say that rejection of Jesus is different to rejection of God however as rejection of God is quite often born from want of power etc. while rejection of Jesus maybe that you simply grew up in a different area. Say a Muslim area. You can't really be punished for being a sheep can you?

Without an absolute standard to define it, who is to say what love is. The Bible reveals to us God's opinion of what love is.

Thaat is described quite well in matthew 25:34-40. You would agree that what you do for God would be out of love?

When all is said and done, it is a historical fact that Jesus of Nazareth died and rose from the dead. That carries a great deal of authority to my thinking.

And also to mine.. ultimately, does it matter what we think?

My point was that if someone is going to deny the most basic beliefs of Christianity, i.e., the Cross and resurrection of Jesus, and the salvation through His name, what is Christian about that person's belief? Why even claim the name? It defies logic.

Well clearly that is not Christian but I so no one who is making that claim.

Yes, anyone can become a Christian, and everyone is potentially saved. Between potentiality and actuality, there is great big IF. Potential does not mean factual. Potential is only a possibility.

Which is the bit that no one is sure of.

 

[DaveS]

hmm just found an interesting verse:

'For to this end we toil and struggle, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe.'
- I Timothy 4:10 (NRSV)

What could this mean? BTW It is a stand alone verse as in, context doesn't change anything.

 

[Multi-Elis]

A while back I saw something interesting:

To change the message to attract more people is a gross error. Jesus never tailored His teaching to make it more acceptable.

This was said in reference to hell. But I don't think that references to hell made Jesus' teaching less acceptable. Rather this (written iat little later):

Love entails self-sacrifice, giving while expecting nothing in return. It is always willing to forgive and never reacting from self-centered concerns, never being angry over any personal hurt. It means absolute selfless giving.

That was what was difficult to accept. That is what makes the gate and the path narrow. That is the cup Jesus talked about, that we will all probably have to drink in order to get to the higher relms of heaven, in order to shine God's bright pure light. What makes it easier to drink, is that Jesus has already done the worst of it, and has the power to help us.

Good things cannot undo or outweigh our breaking of God's commandments. One white lie will destroy any hope of "being good enough" to go to heaven.

It is not intolerant to tell others they will go to hell if they don't believe if that is the truth. If it is the truth, then telling people that is compassionate; not telling them is evil.

The problem is that we are on different wave-lengths. In my oppinion, believing in God for fear of Hell is bad religion. So is trying to work your way with goodness. But we aren't trying to be good in order to atone for a bad. We are hoping to be changed into truely loving people. This is our destiny, this is our future that God has called us to, this is the reason we were born.

Upon what authority do you state that the hell of the Bible is not literally what is says? By what authority do you know that Christ is not the only way to salvation? He rose from the dead. Did you?

I already gave the authority on which I state that the hell of the Bible is not literally what is says -- People who rose from the dead agree with "gnashing of teeth" "torment" describtions of Hell, but not the eternal part. I don't know if you read my quote near the beginning of the thread, but I was quoting one of the many people who rose from the dead.

I think it is time for another quote from him:

Why would you recommend that someone get to know Christ?
​

For many years, I had no clue who this man Jesus Christ was. Oh, I was raised up to be a Christian alright ... but I never really understood who Christ really was until after my experience. I found too many in Christianity come off as haughty and oppressive ... and because of this ... I wanted to distance myself as far away from the faith as I could! But in the process, I also distanced my self from Jesus, The teacher of Love and that was unfortunate! It was not Jesus' fault that so many who 'said' they subscribed to the Lord of Love's ways ... came off acting like they had a board up their backside! Perhaps if I had had better examples of Christ-Love as a child, I would have understood the Lord when I was first taught to believe in him, but that was not in the cards for me.

So now, I never EVER judge anyone if they are unsure about what they feel when it comes to God, Christ or the Bible. I have found ... you cannot rely on humankind or a single book to reveal God to you ... you have to seek these things out with all your whole heart and let the Holy Spirit be your guide. In time because of suffering ... I wanted to see the truth ... and the Holy Spirit showed me: Christ is the light of God that we each hold within us and will awaken to when we choose to embody a Loving lifestyle. The more we do such a thing (and put faith based Love into practice) ... the better our lives will become and the more we reveal this inner Light to ourselves and others.

and a little later:

I am talking about a person who in their heart has a sense of urgency to want to Love on and Joyously Serve others, and not just the ones who look or behave attractively ... but all people. A person filled with the Christ Light will always see that every Soul on this planet is a precious child of our Creator and will always do hers or his best to Love on them with all their might! YOU WILL ALWAYS HEAR ME SAY THIS OVER AND OVER ... LOVE IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO! I cannot say it enough, because this is the path to understanding God and Christ in Heaven. The more you use it and put it into practice ... the more you will evoke the Spirit of the living God in you and see this for yourself

 

[mortsmune]

I already gave the authority on which I state that the hell of the Bible is not literally what is says -- People who rose from the dead agree with "gnashing of teeth" "torment" describtions of Hell, but not the eternal part. I don't know if you read my quote near the beginning of the thread, but I was quoting one of the many people who rose from the dead.

I think it is time for another quote from him:

This is what you base your doctrine on? This is at best flimsy ground for a doctrine.

Regarding the eternity of hell, if it is not eternal, and people there are there temporarily, how is the decision made to decide how long they will be there?

If no one is lost eternally, why did Jesus die? Did He die for the fun of it? Did God make a tragic mistake by allowing His only begotten Son to suffer such a death?

If hell is not forever, without believing in Jesus, how are the sins of those in hell to be forgiven? How can one be purified of sin without the blood of Jesus?

This sounds to me like eternal:

Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Let me also say that I am not a "hell-fire" preacher, and I do not believe a person should come to Christ because of fear of hell, but this is basically what the issue of universalism comes down to and that is what this thread is about. To reinterpret the Bible concerning this matter just because it is unpallatable to us is foolishness. Forever is a very, very long time. To easily dismiss what is so clearly demonstrated in the Bible is foolishness. These stakes are very high.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[mortsmune]

That was what was difficult to accept. That is what makes the gate and the path narrow. That is the cup Jesus talked about, that we will all probably have to drink in order to get to the higher relms of heaven, in order to shine God's bright pure light. What makes it easier to drink, is that Jesus has already done the worst of it, and has the power to help us.

This is very true.

 

[apenman]

The sheep and goats is not the only passage in the Bible on salvation. The ones I quoted before indicate believing in Jesus as the prerequisite for salvation. Take the sheep and goats story in context with the rest of scriptures. Otherwise, only those who visit prisoners, feed the hungry and clothe the naked will be saved. That would exclude most people. The Bible clearly indicates that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Even Jesus Himself said that we must believe on him. He said: "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

If you are going to give credence to Bible at all as having authority, then interpret it honestly and take things in context. Otherwise, just make up whatever beliefs you want and believe them simply because that is what you want to believe and forget about the Bible altogether. Don't pick your belief and then try to justify it by taking scriptures out of context and misinterpreting them.

The sheep and the goats is the judgment of Christ, it is final judgment, and by this we know how Christ is going to judge the world. Under this judgment, "he who loves his fellow man has fulfilled the law", and "love is the fulfillment of the law". It quite simply is the judgment of Christ under the law of Christ. If we understand this we also can clearly understand how nothing has been taken out of context.

Furthermore, as I have said in other threads in this forum, there is no description of judgment in all of scripture in which people are judged according to what they believed, instead they are judged according to what they did.

 

[mortsmune]

Furthermore, as I have said in other threads in this forum, there is no description of judgment in all of scripture in which people are judged according to what they believed, instead they are judged according to what they did.

If this is the case, then what do you do with all the verses throughout the NT telling us that we are saved by faith and grace? Do those mean nothing? Why do you specifically need a "description of judgment" that says we are saved by what we believe when other verses are so clear about it? This is what I mean by context. What do you do with verses like this?

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[john14_20]

However, it's not only Christians who know love. My fiance is an atheist, and he has more love for mankind than I have seen most Christians have. He is one of the most compassionate individuals I have ever met. And it's not just talk. He lives it. When asked his life goals, he always simply says, "To make a positive difference in people's lives." And he lives it, every day. That, my friends, is love.

And what would St. John say about your fiance?

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God, and knows God.

1Jo 4:16 We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.

It would appear that your fiance is born of God, knows God, is in God, and God is in him - even if he does not know it!

 

[apenman]

If this is the case, then what do you do with all the verses throughout the NT telling us that we are saved by faith and grace? Do those mean nothing? Why do you specifically need a "description of judgment" that says we are saved by what we believe when other verses are so clear about it? This is what I mean by context. What do you do with verses like this?

Simple! We understand "what it means" to believe.

It is a righteousness that is by faith "from first to last", and "all that matters is faith expressing itself through love". So, love is the proof of faith, and love is the fulfillment of the law, that being the law of Christ, which is "love one another". Anyone who fulfills that law, from first to last, has also proved that they believed, and that they knew his voice. No other proof is required.

 

[DaveS]

That was what was difficult to accept. That is what makes the gate and the path narrow. That is the cup Jesus talked about, that we will all probably have to drink in order to get to the higher relms of heaven, in order to shine God's bright pure light. What makes it easier to drink, is that Jesus has already done the worst of it, and has the power to help us.

I think you have come across the symbolism behind communion. Jesus was basically saying, take a leaf out of my book - love others.

The problem is that we are on different wave-lengths. In my oppinion, believing in God for fear of Hell is bad religion. So is trying to work your way with goodness. But we aren't trying to be good in order to atone for a bad. We are hoping to be changed into truely loving people. This is our destiny, this is our future that God has called us to, this is the reason we were born.

Yes, that is what I was trying to say, being loving will lead to truly good deeds, God will be the one to know what is a good or bad deed.

I already gave the authority on which I state that the hell of the Bible is not literally what is says -- People who rose from the dead agree with "gnashing of teeth" "torment" describtions of Hell, but not the eternal part. I don't know if you read my quote near the beginning of the thread, but I was quoting one of the many people who rose from the dead.

I think Hell could be eternal, ultimately it is how bad someone has been. If they have done minor bad then they will call out to Christ and be saved earlier, if worse, they will be saved later as ultimately it is the person who decides not God. You could describe hell as being 'redemptive' then. However, some, like Satan, will never 'come out' so to speak because their pride etc. forbids them to. Also, I think that the judgement day is the mercy of God for those in Hell. NDE's have all described that they follow either path out of choice.

This is what you base your doctrine on? This is at best flimsy ground for a doctrine.

How is an NDE 'flimsy' ground?? It-is-a-personal-experience-of-life-after-death!

Regarding the eternity of hell, if it is not eternal, and people there are there temporarily, how is the decision made to decide how long they will be there?

Note above.

I will noww post this first part as I don't want to have to write it all again!

 

[DaveS]

If no one is lost eternally, why did Jesus die? Did He die for the fun of it? Did God make a tragic mistake by allowing His only begotten Son to suffer such a death?

If hell is not forever, without believing in Jesus, how are the sins of those in hell to be forgiven? How can one be purified of sin without the blood of Jesus?

People were lost eternally, that was the whole point of Jesus dying.. IMO.

Because they need to know love, they will cry out for God and Jesus will come.

 

[DaveS]

Sorry about triple post but I think these should be bumped..

John 13:34
Matthew 25:34-40
Deuteronomy 6:4-9
Mark 28:31
Matthew 5:44
Romans 12:17-21

'For to this end we toil and struggle, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe.'
- I Timothy 4:10 (NRSV)

 

[Mailman Dan]

I think Hell could be eternal, ultimately it is how bad someone has been. If they have done minor bad then they will call out to Christ and be saved earlier, if worse, they will be saved later as ultimately it is the person who decides not God. You could describe hell as being 'redemptive' then.

Where do you come up with this stuff? Is it your personal opinion on what you think is going to happen, or is there scripture to support this?

Its scripture that states no one is good enough on their own, and all depend on a payment for sin. I really suggest taking that 1 minute good person test...
www.needgod.com


Dan~~~>only depends on Christ for payment of sin

 

[stumpjumper]

I have not read or even looked through this whole thread but I wonder if anyone has ever read Hans Balthasar's Dare We Hope: That All Men Might Be Saved. It is a wonderfully written defense of universalism. You can find a review of the book and basic assent to its claim by Catholic Richard Neuhaus on his website First Things.