Universalism and 2 thessalonians

[Mailman Dan]

So, Dan - we have an excellent view of Paul's vison of salvation - but what did Jesus teach?

Jesus used the law...repeatedly...

In Mark 10, he used it to show a man money was his god after taking him through 5 other commandments.

In John 4, He used it with the woman at the well to bring out her sin of adultry, before sayng He was the Savior.


The other means by which Paul persuaded sinners concerning Jesus was "out of the law of Moses." The Bible tells us that the Law of Moses is good if it is used lawfully (1 Timothy 1:8). It was given by God as a "schoolmaster" to bring us to Christ (Galatians 3:24). Paul wrote that he "had not known sin, but by the law" (Romans 7:7). The Law of God (the Ten commandments) is evidently the "key of knowledge" Jesus spoke of in Luke 11:52. He was speaking to "lawyers"—those who should have been teaching God’s Law so that sinners would receive the "knowledge of sin," and thus recognize their need of the Savior.


I'm not sure why so many people remove and disguard so much of scripture..



Dan~~~>would like to point out that is all in the NT

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

I'm not sure why so many people remove and disguard so much of scripture..
Dan~~~>would like to point out that is all in the NT

Edit Just caught your last line which rendered my post obsolete.

 

[apenman]

I'm not sure why so many people remove and disguard so much of scripture..

And why some seem to disregard the law of Christ.

 

[ahab]

Hi apenman,

I know what OT scripture is and how and where Jesus and the NT writers refer to it. What I dont know is what you mean by the law of Christ. Do you agree with what I wrote about what I think the law of Christ is? If all you think it is is to love ones neighbour then thats just the second greatest commandment of OT scripture and I dont think anyone is suggesting we disregard it. Nor is that what Paul writes exactly when he says the law of Christ.

peace

 

[apenman]

Hi apenman,

I know what OT scripture is and how and where Jesus and the NT writers refer to it. What I dont know is what you mean by the law of Christ. Do you agree with what I wrote about what I think the law of Christ is? If all you think it is is to love ones neighbour then thats just the second greatest commandment of OT scripture and I dont think anyone is suggesting we disregard it. Nor is that what Paul writes exactly when he says the law of Christ.

peace

The law of Christ is "love one another", and I don't believe you understand the law of Christ to any real extent.

 

[ahab]

Hi apenman,

The law of Christ is "love one another", and I don't believe you understand the law of Christ to any real extent

How can I not understand it if I said that to love one another is part of the law of Christ. Anyone can love one another, apenman, one doesn’t need Jesus to do that, but one does need Christ Jesus to love one another as He loved us which was His command.
We know what love is, that Jesus died for us as an atonement for our sins and to give us life eternal and in all its fulness. He is the truth the life and the way and we follow Him in doing what He taught and did. Thats a bit more towards the full extent of the law of Christ and its sacrifical but amazing
Peace

 

[apenman]

How can I not understand it if I said that to love one another is part of the law of Christ.

To "love one another" is not part of the law of Christ, it is the law of Christ, there is no "part".

 

[Raphael777]

No, we disagree because what you are saying is not correct, or at least there is no real basis for this in scripture. In a similar example, it is believed by many Christians that angels do not have souls or freewill, yet the evidence in scripture is entirely the opposite, so people believing a certain thing means little to me.

Similarly, I would assert that you are wrong... since the basis for your argument seems to stem primarily from the notion of the 'second death' recorded in Revelation, which does not explicitly indicate an annihilation of the soul. As i have stated previously, the term 'spiritual death' as used in the Bible does not inidcate an annihilation but an eternal distance from God.

The lake of fire, which is second death, occurs after final judgment, the lazarus story is pre final judgment. All the dead who will be condemned, the goats, are kept until final judgment, they have a right to be judged. Then, after that judgment comes the lake of fire.

The real problem I have with this intrepretation is that the author of the Book of Revelation, a few verses before, clearly states that the torture of those in 'the lake of fire... will not come to an end, day or night, for ever and ever' (Revelation 20:10).

Moreover, if we assume your interpretation of events, why is there no mention of an end to the nature of hell, an end of annihilation, in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, or in any of Jesus' teaching concerning hell?

Also, I think our difference in the understanding of 'immotality' does make a difference, since you understand it to be a state which has no beginning - to have always existed, whereas I don't believe this is the meaning of immotality - it means the soul cannot die, which doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't have a beginning.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

I find that Christianity so often places the greater emphasis on ... judgment and dogma concerning the hereafter... to the expense of relationship with humanity such as that taught by Jesus' example and the early communal atmosphere of the ecclesia.

source: http://faithcommons.org/churchwithoutwalls

 

[Raphael777]

Does that mean we ought to tolerate false notions of the 'hereafter'? Surely our state after death, rather than deflecting our attention from, or comprimising our understanding of, the intimate relationship between Jesus and His disciples, should instead draw focus towards it, as well as emphasising and impacting it? Every 'dogma', every teaching, sheds light upon the incarnate God - 'the way the truth and the life' - and His relationship with us. Since He is truth itself, we ought always to seek truth in its fullness in every respect...

 

[apocatastasis]

Hi Craig.

My take on this passage in 2 thessalonians is that the old man (carnal nature, false self, etc) will be forever destroyed by the presence of God, the consuming fire.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

[pong]Welcome to CF apocatistasis![/pong]

 

[apocatastasis]

Thank you, Kat!

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Thank you, Kat!

Will you explain your username for me? It's interesting and I'm too lazy to go do a search on it.

 

[apocatastasis]

Acts 3:21

whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

apokatastasis:



1) restoration

a) of a true theocracy b) of the perfect state before the fall

A name given in the history of theology to the doctrine which teaches that a time will come when all free creatures will share in the grace of salvation...

From the Catholic Encyclopedia

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Oh I like that. Now that is and I learned something new too!

 

[DaveS]

Cool.. I'll remember that word in future when wanting to quickly end a debate with a fundie about universalism.. due to both sides in a debate not wanting to show weakness they should simply stop posting.

 

[apocatastasis]

Hi Dave

Cool.. I'll remember that word in future when wanting to quickly end a debate with a fundie about universalism.. due to both sides in a debate not wanting to show weakness they should simply stop posting.

I don't understand what you are meaning to say, exactly. Could you clarify for me? Thanks

 

[DaveS]

Well, it can be used in context with universalism, however, it is less widely known and terefore can have the affect of 'silencing' an opponent as they don't want to admit that they don't know what it means.

 

[Mailman Dan]

And why some seem to disregard the law of Christ.

If you disreguard one, you might as well the other.

If in fact we did love others as ourselves, we would not break the OT law that Jesus also taught.

If you love someone as yourself, you won't lie to them, steal from them, commit adultry on/with them, ect... If you put God first in your life, you wouldn't do those things anyway.

It's the LAW that teaches us why Christ died for our sins. Paul said he didn't know what sin was, unitl the law had told him.

Since the old rev brought up the sheep and the goats, I have a question to toss out.

How many false converts (the goats among the sheep, the weeds among the wheat) have been created by using a false gospel?

How many times have people become christians without even knowing what sin is? (Jesus said unless you repent, you will perish)

How many times have various religions taught that prayers to idols, or confession to men (rather than God) can forgive sin? Scripture says it Christ alone that takes away sin.

Homany religions are blinded to the fact that the law teachs us what sin is, and must be taught before someone can repent and find grace through faith in Christ?

The OT law was used by Jesus, as well as all the NT writters. I'm not sure why so many would want to ignore that. Who would want to toss out what the scripture says is a "key?"



Dan~~~>can understand why Satan would want it away from public view