Universal Uncertainty Principle

[Moral Orel]

Personally, I've not taken the Bible as a written entity that requires God to have dropped each and every word into the heads of the writers. I know there's a lot of Christians who hold to such a doctrine, but I don't think we have to see the WHOLE Bible as having been purely dictated, maybe not even most of it. So, my view about God's doesn't require either Inerrancy or a philosopher's semantic quibbling over 'omni-attributes.'

And that is the extent that this argument can prove of anything no matter how right I am. Biblical inerrancy is a pretty common Christian belief though, so it's an appropriate argument for the section.

 

[Moral Orel]

I take you by your word when you say you found your argument elsewhere on the Internet and that is not your argument, but rather someone else's--someone whom you cannot remember their name.

The argument does, however, bear a striking resemblance to the arguments used by Vexen Crabtree, whether they be his own original, or whether he borrows from others. It is a common sort of argument framed by other humanists, atheists, and satanists. It is an argument that seeks to disprove God's omniscience and infallibility of God's word in the Bible.

Are these your personal beliefs? Or are you simply a student of logic who enjoys debating this topic?

Was it an accident that you choose to use this particular argument, bearing such striking similarities to the satanist teachings, which argue against both God's omniscience and the infallibility of God's word in the Bible?

Exactly what do you seek?

I posted a logical argument about God's omniscience and the infallibility of the Bible because that is the purpose of this sub-forum. I don't care who agrees with the argument. That has no bearing on whether it is logically sound or not.

Not that my beliefs are relevant in any way to whether this argument is true or not, but I'll state:
I am not a member of the Church of Satan because I don't care about atheism as much as they do.
I do not believe any being is capable of knowing absolutely everything.
I do not believe the Bible is inerrant.

Feel free to show me how my logic is not valid in the argument I've presented though. If it is valid, then my beliefs are correct.

 

[Moral Orel]

In fact to make a monumental statement in your limited existence, that "God doesn't know if He knows everything" is leaning towards stupidity.

Your inability to follow my argument makes your implied insult nothing short of ironic.

Let me illustrate: in order to make this statement, again, you would have to know all that God knows + 1 thing that He does not know. Then you could say, "God doesn't know if He knows everything". And, then you can say that because you know that He doesn't know ......

I don't need to know something that God doesn't know if I can show there is something that is unknowable.

 

[david.d]

If God created everything that we can experience in our existence, then in that existence He is omniscient. It's like if I built a computer circuit by circuit, then wrote the software on that computer, I would know everything about that computer. Every circuit, every line of code, everything. That is how God is within our existence. If you are saying there is an existence outside of our existence with God and His existence, that doesn't mean God isn't omniscient as far as we are concerned. There's also no way to prove God doesn't know something, because anything you can know God already knows. Your argument is null and void of an answer.

 

[zippy2006]

God can't know if there is something that He is unaware of. Therefore, God cannot be omniscient, and no one can.

1. Humans can't know if there is something they are unaware of.
2. God is like humans.
3. Therefore God can't know if there is something he is unaware of.

Your primary error comes in premise 2. God is infinitely different from humans.

Whatever the ways there are for God to experience the existence He is in, such as sight, sound, touch, and whatever other metaphysical ways can be imagined, there can always be other ways that He is unaware of that would detect things that He is unaware of and He would be unaware of all of it.

Sight, touch, and sound are perceptions of material beings. God is not human. God is transcendent spirit.

Why does God know that there is nothing he is unaware of? Because he is the unique source of all existence. He created absolutely everything that exists, and nothing comes to exist without Him. This is basic theism.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

And that is the extent that this argument can prove of anything no matter how right I am. Biblical inerrancy is a pretty common Christian belief though, so it's an appropriate argument for the section.

That's fine; but since the Bible itself doesn't really articulate the notion of innerrancy--or at least it doesn't in the way that typical Christians articulate it and defend it today--then I feel I'm alleviated of the burden of having to 'fess up' for something I think is superfluous. Just sayin.'

So, I'll just bow out of the discussion, then, if the target of analysis doesn't include me, Nick.

 

[cloudyday2]

There is the question: "do I know everything?". If nobody can answer that question, then maybe the answer does not exist and therefore doesn't qualify as knowledge?

There is another question instead: "do you know something that I don't know?". When God asks that question to any of His creations, the answer will be "no".
Probably God can also claim to know everything that can be known within the universe He created.

Just some random thoughts.

 

[thesunisout]

If my argument is right, then the thing He doesn't know is whether He knows everything. If He doesn't know everything, then He can't say with certainty that He knows everything without being dishonest. So since it is impossible to know if you know everything, no matter how many things in existence you do know about, then yes, I do know that God doesn't know everything.

I don't know if God knows about every single person, place, or thing in existence. I do know that He can't be sure that He knows about every single person, place, or thing in existence.

You can't know that because you are dealing with a much different state of affairs than God is. God is eternal. There was never a time which He didn't exist. He wasn't created and has no beginning or end. God didn't wake up one day and suddenly become God; He has always been God and always will be God. You are in no actual position to say what He knows or how He knows it. You are actually in a state of being entirely dependent on God to know anything meaningful about reality. You wouldn't know there was a God unless He revealed it to you. You wouldn't know where you came from or where you are going without that revelation. If He chose not to reveal that to you, it would be impossible for you to ever know any of it. That is our reality as human beings and you are trying to superimpose that on God. The only thing you can know is that you are the one in that position, but you can't know that God is in that position.

 

[Moral Orel]

Your primary error comes in premise 2. God is infinitely different from humans.

Premise 2 isn't mine, you're creating a straw man. My argument comes from the very definitions of the words "know" and "aware". It has nothing to do with whether something is human or not. You're stating that God can know about things He does not know about, and that is illogical.

Sight, touch, and sound are perceptions of material beings. God is not human. God is transcendent spirit.

I said "whatever other metaphysical ways can be imagined" right in the section you quoted, yet you somehow overlooked it and made a point about us being physical beings.

Why does God know that there is nothing he is unaware of? Because he is the unique source of all existence. He created absolutely everything that exists, and nothing comes to exist without Him. This is basic theism.

Ahh, the "God is defined as..." argument. You can't define God with a quality that is logically impossible. That's the point of the argument. You can't define God as being a round square either.

 

[Moral Orel]

If you are saying there is an existence outside of our existence with God and His existence, that doesn't mean God isn't omniscient as far as we are concerned.

But if He doesn't know if there is an existence outside of His existence, then He isn't omniscient by the definition of the word.

There's also no way to prove God doesn't know something, because anything you can know God already knows.

I proved that God doesn't know if He knows everything. I don't need to prove that there is some object or person He is unaware of just that there could be. Everyone gets tripped up by this. If something is logically unknowable, then even God can't know it.

 

[Moral Orel]

You can't know that because you are dealing with a much different state of affairs than God is. God is eternal. There was never a time which He didn't exist. He wasn't created and has no beginning or end. God didn't wake up one day and suddenly become God; He has always been God and always will be God. You are in no actual position to say what He knows or how He knows it. You are actually in a state of being entirely dependent on God to know anything meaningful about reality. You wouldn't know there was a God unless He revealed it to you. You wouldn't know where you came from or where you are going without that revelation. If He chose not to reveal that to you, it would be impossible for you to ever know any of it. That is our reality as human beings and you are trying to superimpose that on God. The only thing you can know is that you are the one in that position, but you can't know that God is in that position.

I have shown that it is logically possible to know that you know everything. It doesn't matter how much smarter than me God is, it is impossible to know everything. Knowing that there is nothing that you are unaware of is logically impossible.

 

[zippy2006]

Premise 2 isn't mine, you're creating a straw man.

Then state your argument. If I have misrepresented you--which I do not believe I have--then it is likely due to lack of any clear argumentation in the OP.

You said, "God can't know if there is something that He is unaware of." Yet if God knows that he is existence itself by which all other things come to be, he also knows that nothing exists except Himself and what he has created. Therefore he knows that he is aware of everything which exists, and he knows that there is nothing he is not aware of (for the only things he is "not aware of" are things that necessarily do not exist). There is nothing which exists that God is not aware of; God is aware of all things.

My argument comes from the very definitions of the words "know" and "aware". It has nothing to do with whether something is human or not.

Knowledge and awareness are both necessarily defined (somewhat) anthropomorphically, and therefore it would seem that your "argument" is based in anthropomorphism. God's awareness and knowledge are not at all like our own. When we attribute knowledge to God we do so by analogy, and the knowledge we attribute is assumed to be infinitely greater than human knowledge. Your attribution assumes that it is equivalent to human knowledge insofar as it is thought to succumb to the same weaknesses of human knowledge. But it is not equivalent, nor can it be thought to succumb to the same weaknesses (both a priori and according to the creation arguments I've put forward).

You're stating that God can know about things He does not know about, and that is illogical.

I'm stating that there is nothing God doesn't know because he is the creator of everything that exists. God knows that he knows all things, and that there is nothing which he doesn't know about.

I said "whatever other metaphysical ways can be imagined" right in the section you quoted, yet you somehow overlooked it and made a point about us being physical beings.

Nevertheless, you're still relying on anthropomorphism. Your basis is "metaphysical" ways of discovering knowledge about the world. God does not discover knowledge or come to knowledge at all. For the creator creation is known a priori.

Ahh, the "God is defined as..." argument. You can't define God with a quality that is logically impossible. That's the point of the argument. You can't define God as being a round square either.

What logical impossibility have I supposed? Define it.

I have shown that it is logically possible to know that you know everything. It doesn't matter how much smarter than me God is, it is impossible to know everything. Knowing that there is nothing that you are unaware of is logically impossible.

You've stated that; you've asserted that. But you've by no means demonstrated it. An argument would be in order.

By all means I grant that it is impossible for a human to know that they know everything, or even to know everything. But you want to make the jump to God, and there is no rational inference that allows that jump.

 

[david.d]

But if He doesn't know if there is an existence outside of His existence, then He isn't omniscient by the definition of the word.

I proved that God doesn't know if He knows everything. I don't need to prove that there is some object or person He is unaware of just that there could be. Everyone gets tripped up by this. If something is logically unknowable, then even God can't know it.

You didn't prove anything, only that you don't know everything. God doesn't live inside your logical little box.

 

[Moral Orel]

You didn't prove anything, only that you don't know everything. God doesn't live inside your logical little box.

Do you believe God can defy logic? Can He make a round circle? If not, then please explain how my logic is not valid.

edit: Can He make a round square?

 

[Pilgrim]

Do you believe God can defy logic? Can He make a round circle? If not, then please explain how my logic is not valid.

Your logic is wrong. Circles are round...

 

[Moral Orel]

Your logic is wrong. Circles are round...

My mistake!

 

[Pilgrim]

God can do whatever God wants to do. He's been doing it for eternity. God reveals to man that which He wants us to know and gives us the capacity for discovery--therefore man invents language, mathematics (another language), logic, music, art, etc. God's logic doesn't comport to the language of logic that man created for man's use. God calls on us to submit to Him and have faith. For nonbelievers faith in God is only found by drawing near to God to allow the Holy Spirit to convict. God's door is always open.

 

[Moral Orel]

Knowledge and awareness are both necessarily defined (somewhat) anthropomorphically, and therefore it would seem that your "argument" is based in anthropomorphism.

The crux of your retort seems to rest on this, so let's tackle this before covering a hundred points at once.

Knowledge and awareness are not defined anthropomorphically. How we attain knowledge and awareness, yes. But that is very different than knowledge and awareness in and of themselves. My best guess is that you are conflating those two things, but I can't be sure.

Like my example of sight and sound. These are senses we have so we can relate to them. God, if He exists, certainly has other "senses" (if you would even call them that). So by imagining that we can't hear, have never heard, and have never had hearing explained to us, we can imagine that there are ways to become aware of things that we have no knowledge of and that we can't even conceptualize. We can imagine those things exist without being able to actually conceptualize them in any relatable way.

 

[Moral Orel]

God's logic doesn't comport to the language of logic that man created for man's use.

Then I guess I'll pose the same question to you (phrased correctly this time): can God make a round square?

If so, then we can throw out Apologetics because it seeks to prove God's existence using logic, but God's ability to do this would make logic obsolete and worthless.

 

[david.d]

Then I guess I'll pose the same question to you (phrased correctly this time): can God make a round square?

If so, then we can throw out Apologetics because it seeks to prove God's existence using logic, but God's ability to do this would make logic obsolete and worthless.

If I add you to my ignore list does that mean you no longer exist? To me you would become one of those known unknowns. Starting to like the sound of that.