Universal Uncertainty Principle

[Moral Orel]

If there is something you are unaware of, you can't know that you are unaware of it. For example, before discovering the Americas, people didn't know that it existed, but furthermore, they didn't know that they didn't know that it existed. The bolded portion is the important part, and that's where things get tricky. You can never know if there is something that you don't know because of this, no matter what, and no matter who you are.

God can't know if there is something that He is unaware of. Therefore, God cannot be omniscient, and no one can.

An illustration to try to make it more clear:

Imagine only having one sense, the sense of sight. You can't hear sounds, and there's no one to explain what "hearing" even is. Therefore you are unaware of sounds that exist, and you are unaware that you are unaware that sounds exist.

Whatever the ways there are for God to experience the existence He is in, such as sight, sound, touch, and whatever other metaphysical ways can be imagined, there can always be other ways that He is unaware of that would detect things that He is unaware of and He would be unaware of all of it.

This is not a refutation of God's existence, it is only a refutation of His omniscience. It is to show that omniscience is logically impossible. But to take it a step further, it is a falsity for the Bible to claim God is the only god because even God can't know that nor is there any way to calculate any probability that He is the only God that is, ever was, or ever will be.


*Disclaimer: I am not the author of this principle. I read it years ago on the internet and have no idea who did originate it. Searching for it again only shows scientific applications about particles and such. If anyone knows who wrote it, or finds who wrote it, I'll replace this disclaimer with the credit due.

 

[Pilgrim]

Do yo believe this unknown source?

What does God's word, the Bible have to say?

• Psalms 147:4-5 tells us, “He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.”
• God revealed His plan to Old Testament prophets, such as Isaiah, who spoke God’s word to the people: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel” (Isaiah 7:14).
• Joseph understood the omniscience of God; that the events in Joseph’s life had worked together for his family’s own good. “And now, do not be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you (Genesis 45:5).”
• God knew before He created the world He would send His Son Jesus Christ to save us from our sins: “He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake” (1 Peter 1:20).
• Proverbs 15:3 tells us: “The eyes of the LORD are everywhere, keeping watch on the wicked and the good.”
• Matthew 10:30 tells us that even the hairs on our head are numbered. No matter how carefully we keep secrets from others, we have no secrets from God.
• In Psalms 139:1-4 David wrote, “You have searched me, LORD, and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you, LORD, know it completely.”
• It is comforting to know God who knows every star by name knows each of us personally and loves us no matter what. “For the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought” (1 Chronicles 28:9).
• The birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus were not by happenstance. They were the result of a divine plan God set in place an eternity ago to provide us a way to have a personal relationship with Him. We can enter into that relationship by praying to God, confessing our sins and asking Him to come into our lives. 1 John 1:9 says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”

The omniscience of God is the principle that God is all-knowing; that He encompasses all knowledge of the universe past, present, and future. In the beginning, God created the world and everything in it, including knowledge.

Source: Omniscience of God (allaboutgod.com)

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If there is something you are unaware of, you can't know that you are unaware of it. For example, before discovering the Americas, people didn't know that it existed, but furthermore, they didn't know that they didn't know that it existed. The bolded portion is the important part, and that's where things get tricky. You can never know if there is something that you don't know because of this, no matter what, and no matter who you are.

God can't know if there is something that He is unaware of. Therefore, God cannot be omniscient, and no one can.

An illustration to try to make it more clear:

Imagine only having one sense, the sense of sight. You can't hear sounds, and there's no one to explain what "hearing" even is. Therefore you are unaware of sounds that exist, and you are unaware that you are unaware that sounds exist.

Whatever the ways there are for God to experience the existence He is in, such as sight, sound, touch, and whatever other metaphysical ways can be imagined, there can always be other ways that He is unaware of that would detect things that He is unaware of and He would be unaware of all of it.

This is not a refutation of God's existence, it is only a refutation of His omniscience. It is to show that omniscience is logically impossible. But to take it a step further, it is a falsity for the Bible to claim God is the only god because even God can't know that nor is there any way to calculate any probability that He is the only God that is, ever was, or ever will be.


*Disclaimer: I am not the author of this principle. I read it years ago on the internet and have no idea who did originate it. Searching for it again only shows scientific applications about particles and such. If anyone knows who wrote it, or finds who wrote it, I'll replace this disclaimer with the credit due.

I guess a being's ability to be aware of all spaces and to exist at all times isn't enough to know all that needs to be known, then? Oh deary me!

Somehow, I'm under the impression that the biblical notion of God's nature is such that if there is something God doesn't know, it is because He has chosen to forgo knowing it for His own purposes and goals. But, who knows if I'm right or not. Do you?

 

[thesunisout]

If there is something you are unaware of, you can't know that you are unaware of it. For example, before discovering the Americas, people didn't know that it existed, but furthermore, they didn't know that they didn't know that it existed. The bolded portion is the important part, and that's where things get tricky. You can never know if there is something that you don't know because of this, no matter what, and no matter who you are.

God can't know if there is something that He is unaware of. Therefore, God cannot be omniscient, and no one can.

An illustration to try to make it more clear:

Imagine only having one sense, the sense of sight. You can't hear sounds, and there's no one to explain what "hearing" even is. Therefore you are unaware of sounds that exist, and you are unaware that you are unaware that sounds exist.

Whatever the ways there are for God to experience the existence He is in, such as sight, sound, touch, and whatever other metaphysical ways can be imagined, there can always be other ways that He is unaware of that would detect things that He is unaware of and He would be unaware of all of it.

This is not a refutation of God's existence, it is only a refutation of His omniscience. It is to show that omniscience is logically impossible. But to take it a step further, it is a falsity for the Bible to claim God is the only god because even God can't know that nor is there any way to calculate any probability that He is the only God that is, ever was, or ever will be.


*Disclaimer: I am not the author of this principle. I read it years ago on the internet and have no idea who did originate it. Searching for it again only shows scientific applications about particles and such. If anyone knows who wrote it, or finds who wrote it, I'll replace this disclaimer with the credit due.

You don't know that God doesn't know everything, and even if what you said was true, He could still know everything there is to know. Whether He could know what He doesn't know or not, He could still know everything there is to know.

You have to consider that God is eternal and isn't bound by time or space. The bible says that as the Heavens are higher than the Earth, so are His ways above our ways and His thoughts about our thoughts. Our limited minds cannot dream up a box big enough to contain God. Not only that, but don't you think that if we've thought of something, then God already is well aware of it? Do you think God doesn't understand this concept when He says that He knows everything? Who do you think it is more likely to be in error, you or God?

 

[Peter1000]

If there is something you are unaware of, you can't know that you are unaware of it. For example, before discovering the Americas, people didn't know that it existed, but furthermore, they didn't know that they didn't know that it existed. The bolded portion is the important part, and that's where things get tricky. You can never know if there is something that you don't know because of this, no matter what, and no matter who you are.

God can't know if there is something that He is unaware of. Therefore, God cannot be omniscient, and no one can.

An illustration to try to make it more clear:

Imagine only having one sense, the sense of sight. You can't hear sounds, and there's no one to explain what "hearing" even is. Therefore you are unaware of sounds that exist, and you are unaware that you are unaware that sounds exist.

Whatever the ways there are for God to experience the existence He is in, such as sight, sound, touch, and whatever other metaphysical ways can be imagined, there can always be other ways that He is unaware of that would detect things that He is unaware of and He would be unaware of all of it.

This is not a refutation of God's existence, it is only a refutation of His omniscience. It is to show that omniscience is logically impossible. But to take it a step further, it is a falsity for the Bible to claim God is the only god because even God can't know that nor is there any way to calculate any probability that He is the only God that is, ever was, or ever will be.


*Disclaimer: I am not the author of this principle. I read it years ago on the internet and have no idea who did originate it. Searching for it again only shows scientific applications about particles and such. If anyone knows who wrote it, or finds who wrote it, I'll replace this disclaimer with the credit due.

You are making an assumption that cannot be answered using logic.

In order to say that "God can't know....", you must have first hand knowledge of what God knows, and again, you cannot know that answer using logic.

You are willing to compare God to a person that only has the sense of sight?
In order for you to say, "there can always be other ways that He is unaware of that would detect things that He is unaware of and He would be unaware of all of it", means you know both what God knows and what he doesn't know. Again your statement cannot be answered using logic.

To refute that God is not omniscience, is actually to refute that God exists.

Do you think that in 100 billion years, that a person could come to know all that there is to know scientifically? Think of where science has taken us in just the last 5 thousand years. In about 60 years we went from learning how to fly a bi-plane 852', to landing a rocket on the moon, and in the next 50 years we have machines that can fly out of our solar system and communicate with us on earth.

I think God is omniscience because I believe He has existed for a time that could not possibly be calculated using numbers or logic. Plenty of time to learn all the secrets of the universe, then use those secrets to create the universe.

Interestingly enough, I believe if you overcome this world and you are given the opportunity to sit with Him in his throne (see Revelations 3:21), He will pass those same secrets on to you, and you will have the opportunity to be omniscience and create too. That is one reason I behave my self and do what He tells me to do. It is a great motivator for me, and I look forward to that day when I can create.

So seek the words of the bible and believe it when it says that God knows all.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

The premise is "there is something God does not know."

How would we find this out?

Allow me a similar question. "IF God cannot see the difference in colors, God is color blind."

No one would dispute the rational basis for this. Color blindness is a failure to distinguish colors.

Now, if one could only provide some reason to doubt God cannot distinguish colors.

I fear the same problem applies to the initial argument. "If God doesn't know something..." But as Mr. O said, our source for all knowledge Godly insists He does know all. Omniscience (of God) is a basic tenet of Theology. Then there's the problem of how would we know? If one of us found something that God didn't know about, just our recognizing it would 'spill the beans' would it not?

The argument is self-defeating.

 

[Moral Orel]

@Mr. O @2PhiloVoid @thesunisout @Peter1000 @Archie the Preacher
I'll try to get some more specific responses out to each of your replies, but it seems like you're all missing my actual claim. I'm not claiming that there is something out there that God doesn't know about. I'm claiming God can't know if there is or not. Omniscience is logically impossible. Here is the claim in it's simplest form: God doesn't know if He knows everything.

This doesn't refute God's existence, as some have said. It only refutes how we conceive of God and what the Bible may claim about God.

 

[Moral Orel]

Do yo believe this unknown source?

I believe the logic of this argument is sound.

What does God's word, the Bible have to say?

• Psalms 147:4-5 tells us, “He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.”
• God revealed His plan to Old Testament prophets, such as Isaiah, who spoke God’s word to the people: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel” (Isaiah 7:14).
• Joseph understood the omniscience of God; that the events in Joseph’s life had worked together for his family’s own good. “And now, do not be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you (Genesis 45:5).”
• God knew before He created the world He would send His Son Jesus Christ to save us from our sins: “He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake” (1 Peter 1:20).
• Proverbs 15:3 tells us: “The eyes of the LORD are everywhere, keeping watch on the wicked and the good.”
• Matthew 10:30 tells us that even the hairs on our head are numbered. No matter how carefully we keep secrets from others, we have no secrets from God.
• In Psalms 139:1-4 David wrote, “You have searched me, LORD, and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you, LORD, know it completely.”
• It is comforting to know God who knows every star by name knows each of us personally and loves us no matter what. “For the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought” (1 Chronicles 28:9).
• The birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus were not by happenstance. They were the result of a divine plan God set in place an eternity ago to provide us a way to have a personal relationship with Him. We can enter into that relationship by praying to God, confessing our sins and asking Him to come into our lives. 1 John 1:9 says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”

The omniscience of God is the principle that God is all-knowing; that He encompasses all knowledge of the universe past, present, and future. In the beginning, God created the world and everything in it, including knowledge.

Okay, so the Bible says God knows everything. If my argument is correct, that God cannot know everything, even if the only thing He doesn't know is whether He knows everything or not, then the Bible is wrong.

 

[Moral Orel]

I guess a being's ability to be aware of all spaces and exist at all times isn't enough to know all that needs to be known, then. Oh deary me!

Let's think about spaces then, just to narrow an example down to make it simpler for our understanding. We have three dimensions of space. God knows about everything up/down, left/right, forward/backward. If there's a fourth dimension of space that God is simply unaware of (I'm not saying there is) God wouldn't know that He doesn't know.

 

[Moral Orel]

You don't know that God doesn't know everything, and even if what you said was true, He could still know everything there is to know. Whether He could know what He doesn't know or not, He could still know everything there is to know.

If my argument is right, then the thing He doesn't know is whether He knows everything. If He doesn't know everything, then He can't say with certainty that He knows everything without being dishonest. So since it is impossible to know if you know everything, no matter how many things in existence you do know about, then yes, I do know that God doesn't know everything.

I don't know if God knows about every single person, place, or thing in existence. I do know that He can't be sure that He knows about every single person, place, or thing in existence.

 

[Moral Orel]

You are making an assumption that cannot be answered using logic.

I am making no assumptions. I don't assume there is some person or object out there that God is unaware of. I'm merely stating it is always possible for something to exist that no one is aware of.

You are willing to compare God to a person that only has the sense of sight?

I have to break things down to keep them simple enough for us simple humans to wrap our heads around. We have five senses, God might have many, many more. But we don't have any comprehension of what they might be, so we can't talk about it. In the same way that I might talk about two dimensional space to explain concepts about four dimensional space.

To refute that God is not omniscience, is actually to refute that God exists.

No it doesn't. If the universe was created by some powerful being who also planted life inside it, we would still call that being a god even if there were many other universes created by many other powerful beings. I'm not saying any of that is true. Just that if it were true, and that we downgraded the concept of God from omnipotent and omniscient to really powerful and really knowledgeable, that concept would still be far enough above us to refer to it as a god.

At best my argument shows discrepancies in the Bible. It has nothing to do with God's existence.

 

[Moral Orel]

The premise is "there is something God does not know."

True, but notice the detail that the only thing I am claiming God doesn't know is whether He knows everything or not. I'm not claiming there is something He doesn't know about

How would we find this out?

Allow me a similar question. "IF God cannot see the difference in colors, God is color blind."

No one would dispute the rational basis for this. Color blindness is a failure to distinguish colors.

Now, if one could only provide some reason to doubt God cannot distinguish colors.

If you were color blind, and no one ever told you there was anything other than shades of grey, and you had no way to conceptualize other colors, would you be correct to say, "color does not exist"? Of course not. Simply because you are unaware of something doesn't mean you are unaware of the possibility of something and to deny even the possibility of something that you couldn't possibly be aware of is dishonest.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

@Mr. O @2PhiloVoid @thesunisout @Peter1000 @Archie the Preacher
I'll try to get some more specific responses out to each of your replies, but it seems like you're all missing my actual claim. I'm not claiming that there is something out there that God doesn't know about. I'm claiming God can't know if there is or not. Omniscience is logically impossible. Here is the claim in it's simplest form: God doesn't know if He knows everything.

This doesn't refute God's existence, as some have said. It only refutes how we conceive of God and what the Bible may claim about God.

And what I'm saying is that your statement is merely semantic play: We don't know what God knows, or can know, or how He knows, so we'd do ourselves favors by not creating 'omni' terms and applying it to a Being we can't really measure.

It's we who can't know ... maybe God has 'omni' traits in the way that we've attempted to be ingenious and come up with terminology that we think befits God. But, the trick is, we as limited human beings can never know if our terms do fit, or if they don't.

That's what I'm implying.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Let's think about spaces then, just to narrow an example down to make it simpler for our understanding. We have three dimensions of space. God knows about everything up/down, left/right, forward/backward. If there's a fourth dimension of space that God is simply unaware of (I'm not saying there is) God wouldn't know that He doesn't know.

Well then...see my previous post.

 

[Moral Orel]

And what I'm saying is that your statement is merely semantic play: We don't know what God knows, or can know, or how He knows, so we'd do ourselves favors by not creating 'omni' terms and applying it to a Being we can't really measure.

It's we who can't know ... maybe God has 'omni' traits in the way that we've attempted to be ingenious and come up with terminology that we think befits God. But, the trick is, we as limited human beings can never know if our terms do fit, or if they don't.

That's what I'm implying.

I can't say for sure what God knows, obviously, but I think I can show logically that there is always something He can't know. If God is anything less than omniscient, does that not pose a pretty serious problem for the belief that the Bible is the inspired Word of God to the extent that God told people exactly what to write?

 

[Pilgrim]

*Disclaimer: I am not the author of this principle. I read it years ago on the internet and have no idea who did originate it. Searching for it again only shows scientific applications about particles and such. If anyone knows who wrote it, or finds who wrote it, I'll replace this disclaimer with the credit due.

Source: "Is Omniscience Possible? Does God Know Everything?" by Vexen Crabtree (2002)

Your argument is taken directly from the writings and personal testimony of Vexen Crabtree who is Satanist and member of the church of Satan.

Was it by accident or is it your intent to use Satanist teachings to argue against God's omniscience and infallibility of the God's word in the Bible?

 

[Moral Orel]

Source: "Is Omniscience Possible? Does God Know Everything?" by Vexen Crabtree (2002)

Your argument is taken directly from the writings and personal testimony of Vexen Crabtree who is Satanist and member of the church of Satan.

Was it by accident or is it your intent to use Satanist teachings to argue against God's omniscience and infallibility of the God's word in the Bible?

Just because he has arguments against God's omniscience doesn't mean this argument is his. There are lots of arguments against the idea of omniscience. I don't see it on the list of his arguments. So, no, it doesn't come directly from this site.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I can't say for sure what God knows, obviously, but I think I can show logically that there is always something He can't know. If God is anything less than omniscient, does that not pose a pretty serious problem for the belief that the Bible is the inspired Word of God to the extent that God told people exactly what to write?

Personally, I don't take the Bible as a written entity requiring God to have dropped each and every word into the heads of the writers. I know there's a lot of Christians who hold to such a doctrine, but I don't think we have to see the WHOLE Bible as having been purely dictated, maybe not even most of it. So, my view about God's Word requires neither Inerrancy or a philosopher's semantic quibbling over 'omni-attributes.'

If we want to get literal, we could apply what I call the Sodom and Gomorrah Principle, as can be drawn out by the various epistemological nuances embedded in the literary structure of Genesis 18 (i.e. what do we make of the text if we take the chapter as a literary whole, but also focus on verse 21 as it exists in connection with the surrounding context(s)).

The question then is: with hermeneutical considerations in mind, should I take verse 21 as literal, or as a figure of speech, as it pertains to God's knowledge?

 

[Pilgrim]

*Disclaimer: I am not the author of this principle. I read it years ago on the internet and have no idea who did originate it. Searching for it again only shows scientific applications about particles and such. If anyone knows who wrote it, or finds who wrote it, I'll replace this disclaimer with the credit due.

Source: "Is Omniscience Possible? Does God Know Everything?" by Vexen Crabtree (2002)

Your argument is taken directly from the writings and personal testimony of Vexen Crabtree who is Satanist and member of the church of Satan.

Was it by accident or is it your intent to use Satanist teachings to argue against God's omniscience and infallibility of the God's word in the Bible?

Just because he has arguments against God's omniscience doesn't mean this argument is his. There are lots of arguments against the idea of omniscience. I don't see it on the list of his arguments. So, no, it doesn't come directly from this site.

I take you by your word when you say you found your argument elsewhere on the Internet and that is not your argument, but rather someone else's--someone whom you cannot remember their name.

The argument does, however, bear a striking resemblance to the arguments used by Vexen Crabtree, whether they be his own original, or whether he borrows from others. It is a common sort of argument framed by other humanists, atheists, and satanists. It is an argument that seeks to disprove God's omniscience and infallibility of God's word in the Bible.

Are these your personal beliefs? Or are you simply a student of logic who enjoys debating this topic?

Was it an accident that you choose to use this particular argument, bearing such striking similarities to the satanist teachings, which argue against both God's omniscience and the infallibility of God's word in the Bible?

Exactly what do you seek?

 

[Peter1000]

@Mr. O @2PhiloVoid @thesunisout @Peter1000 @Archie the Preacher
I'll try to get some more specific responses out to each of your replies, but it seems like you're all missing my actual claim. I'm not claiming that there is something out there that God doesn't know about. I'm claiming God can't know if there is or not. Omniscience is logically impossible. Here is the claim in it's simplest form: God doesn't know if He knows everything.

This doesn't refute God's existence, as some have said. It only refutes how we conceive of God and what the Bible may claim about God.

Omniscience is logically impossible, to you. You live in a glass darkly. You are a finite being. With all humility, you know just about nothing. So for you or me or any other mortal to say, "omniscience is logically impossible" it is not logical in itself, because of our limited knowledge. And especially our limited knowledge of God and what He knows.

In fact to make a monumental statement in your limited existence, that "God doesn't know if He knows everything" is leaning towards stupidity.

Let me illustrate: in order to make this statement, again, you would have to know all that God knows + 1 thing that He does not know. Then you could say, "God doesn't know if He knows everything". And, then you can say that because you know that He doesn't know ......

As I have said, you cannot use logic to come up with the right answer for your question. The only intellectual tool you have to work with is 'faith'.