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And that is the extent that this argument can prove of anything no matter how right I am. Biblical inerrancy is a pretty common Christian belief though, so it's an appropriate argument for the section.Personally, I've not taken the Bible as a written entity that requires God to have dropped each and every word into the heads of the writers. I know there's a lot of Christians who hold to such a doctrine, but I don't think we have to see the WHOLE Bible as having been purely dictated, maybe not even most of it. So, my view about God's doesn't require either Inerrancy or a philosopher's semantic quibbling over 'omni-attributes.'
I posted a logical argument about God's omniscience and the infallibility of the Bible because that is the purpose of this sub-forum. I don't care who agrees with the argument. That has no bearing on whether it is logically sound or not.I take you by your word when you say you found your argument elsewhere on the Internet and that is not your argument, but rather someone else's--someone whom you cannot remember their name.
The argument does, however, bear a striking resemblance to the arguments used by Vexen Crabtree, whether they be his own original, or whether he borrows from others. It is a common sort of argument framed by other humanists, atheists, and satanists. It is an argument that seeks to disprove God's omniscience and infallibility of God's word in the Bible.
Are these your personal beliefs? Or are you simply a student of logic who enjoys debating this topic?
Was it an accident that you choose to use this particular argument, bearing such striking similarities to the satanist teachings, which argue against both God's omniscience and the infallibility of God's word in the Bible?
Exactly what do you seek?
Your inability to follow my argument makes your implied insult nothing short of ironic.In fact to make a monumental statement in your limited existence, that "God doesn't know if He knows everything" is leaning towards stupidity.
I don't need to know something that God doesn't know if I can show there is something that is unknowable.Let me illustrate: in order to make this statement, again, you would have to know all that God knows + 1 thing that He does not know. Then you could say, "God doesn't know if He knows everything". And, then you can say that because you know that He doesn't know ......
God can't know if there is something that He is unaware of. Therefore, God cannot be omniscient, and no one can.
Whatever the ways there are for God to experience the existence He is in, such as sight, sound, touch, and whatever other metaphysical ways can be imagined, there can always be other ways that He is unaware of that would detect things that He is unaware of and He would be unaware of all of it.
And that is the extent that this argument can prove of anything no matter how right I am. Biblical inerrancy is a pretty common Christian belief though, so it's an appropriate argument for the section.
If my argument is right, then the thing He doesn't know is whether He knows everything. If He doesn't know everything, then He can't say with certainty that He knows everything without being dishonest. So since it is impossible to know if you know everything, no matter how many things in existence you do know about, then yes, I do know that God doesn't know everything.
I don't know if God knows about every single person, place, or thing in existence. I do know that He can't be sure that He knows about every single person, place, or thing in existence.
Premise 2 isn't mine, you're creating a straw man. My argument comes from the very definitions of the words "know" and "aware". It has nothing to do with whether something is human or not. You're stating that God can know about things He does not know about, and that is illogical.Your primary error comes in premise 2. God is infinitely different from humans.
I said "whatever other metaphysical ways can be imagined" right in the section you quoted, yet you somehow overlooked it and made a point about us being physical beings.Sight, touch, and sound are perceptions of material beings. God is not human. God is transcendent spirit.
Ahh, the "God is defined as..." argument. You can't define God with a quality that is logically impossible. That's the point of the argument. You can't define God as being a round square either.Why does God know that there is nothing he is unaware of? Because he is the unique source of all existence. He created absolutely everything that exists, and nothing comes to exist without Him. This is basic theism.
But if He doesn't know if there is an existence outside of His existence, then He isn't omniscient by the definition of the word.If you are saying there is an existence outside of our existence with God and His existence, that doesn't mean God isn't omniscient as far as we are concerned.
I proved that God doesn't know if He knows everything. I don't need to prove that there is some object or person He is unaware of just that there could be. Everyone gets tripped up by this. If something is logically unknowable, then even God can't know it.There's also no way to prove God doesn't know something, because anything you can know God already knows.
I have shown that it is logically possible to know that you know everything. It doesn't matter how much smarter than me God is, it is impossible to know everything. Knowing that there is nothing that you are unaware of is logically impossible.You can't know that because you are dealing with a much different state of affairs than God is. God is eternal. There was never a time which He didn't exist. He wasn't created and has no beginning or end. God didn't wake up one day and suddenly become God; He has always been God and always will be God. You are in no actual position to say what He knows or how He knows it. You are actually in a state of being entirely dependent on God to know anything meaningful about reality. You wouldn't know there was a God unless He revealed it to you. You wouldn't know where you came from or where you are going without that revelation. If He chose not to reveal that to you, it would be impossible for you to ever know any of it. That is our reality as human beings and you are trying to superimpose that on God. The only thing you can know is that you are the one in that position, but you can't know that God is in that position.
Premise 2 isn't mine, you're creating a straw man.
My argument comes from the very definitions of the words "know" and "aware". It has nothing to do with whether something is human or not.
You're stating that God can know about things He does not know about, and that is illogical.
I said "whatever other metaphysical ways can be imagined" right in the section you quoted, yet you somehow overlooked it and made a point about us being physical beings.
Ahh, the "God is defined as..." argument. You can't define God with a quality that is logically impossible. That's the point of the argument. You can't define God as being a round square either.
I have shown that it is logically possible to know that you know everything. It doesn't matter how much smarter than me God is, it is impossible to know everything. Knowing that there is nothing that you are unaware of is logically impossible.
You didn't prove anything, only that you don't know everything. God doesn't live inside your logical little box.But if He doesn't know if there is an existence outside of His existence, then He isn't omniscient by the definition of the word.
I proved that God doesn't know if He knows everything. I don't need to prove that there is some object or person He is unaware of just that there could be. Everyone gets tripped up by this. If something is logically unknowable, then even God can't know it.
Do you believe God can defy logic? Can He make a round circle? If not, then please explain how my logic is not valid.You didn't prove anything, only that you don't know everything. God doesn't live inside your logical little box.
Your logic is wrong. Circles are round...
The crux of your retort seems to rest on this, so let's tackle this before covering a hundred points at once.Knowledge and awareness are both necessarily defined (somewhat) anthropomorphically, and therefore it would seem that your "argument" is based in anthropomorphism.
Then I guess I'll pose the same question to you (phrased correctly this time): can God make a round square?God's logic doesn't comport to the language of logic that man created for man's use.
If I add you to my ignore list does that mean you no longer exist? To me you would become one of those known unknowns. Starting to like the sound of that.Then I guess I'll pose the same question to you (phrased correctly this time): can God make a round square?
If so, then we can throw out Apologetics because it seeks to prove God's existence using logic, but God's ability to do this would make logic obsolete and worthless.
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