Universal salvation

[cloudyday2]

Just curious what you guys think of the idea of a universal hope of salvation through Jesus irrespective of religious beliefs, lifestyle, character, etc. Maybe there is something worth saving in everybody and the person making that judgment (Jesus) loves us more than anybody else? Would that belief be compatible with Christianity as you understand it?

 

[lesliedellow]

Just curious what you guys think of the idea of a universal hope of salvation through Jesus irrespective of religious beliefs, lifestyle, character, etc. Maybe there is something worth saving in everybody and the person making that judgment (Jesus) loves us more than anybody else? Would that belief be compatible with Christianity as you understand it?

Jesus said, more than once, that salvation is not universal. So either I have to question his authority as God Incarnate, in which case I could hardly call myself a Christian, or I must accept what he said.

 

[bling]

Those that go to hell do not want Godly type Love (unselfish Love) nor do they even like others to Love them unconditionally (they like to be loved for who they are).

Since heaven is like one huge Love Feast of only Godly type Love those that go to hell would not be happy there, so should God force them to go to heaven?

 

[cloudyday2]

Jesus said, more than once, that salvation is not universal. So either I have to question his authority as God Incarnate, in which case I could hardly call myself a Christian, or I must accept what he said.

o.k. fair enough. Just curious how much diversity of opinion there is on this. I watched "Heaven is for Real" recently and universal salvation seemed to be implied in some scenes. St. Gregory of Nyssa (brother of St. Basil the Great) seemed to believe in universal salvation.

IMO Christianity makes more sense with universal salvation. I see many atheists and Christians are troubled by doctrine of hell. Maybe hell will have no residents after Jesus forgives everybody?

 

[Lukaris]

Daniel 12:1-4

King James Version (KJV)

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.


John 5:22-29

King James Version (KJV)

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



The standard of salvation for Christians:

Ephesians 2:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




For non Christians:


Romans 2:11-16

King James Version (KJV)

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.




There is no universal salvation but the judgement of God is fair.

 

[cloudyday2]

Those that go to hell do not want Godly type Love (unselfish Love) nor do they even like others to Love them unconditionally (they like to be loved for who they are).

Since heaven is like one huge Love Feast of only Godly type Love those that go to hell would not be happy there, so should God force them to go to heaven?

Name an example of somebody that would be more comfortable in hell and explain what you think hell is like. What about atheists, Buddhists, etc? Are you claiming that they would be more comfortable in hell or are you claiming that they will go to heaven?

 

[cloudyday2]

... (bible quotes) ...
There is no universal salvation but the judgement of God is fair.

Thanks. The bible quotes seem a little ambiguous to me, but I suppose most of the bible seems ambiguous to me.

I'm a little disappointed that everybody is so confident that universal salvation is wrong. It makes Christianity seem very ridiculous to me. (Of course I don't mean to insult you personally for holding this view.) I didn't realize universal salvation is such a fringe idea.

 

[ebia]

Just curious what you guys think of the idea of a universal hope of salvation through Jesus irrespective of religious beliefs, lifestyle, character, etc. Maybe there is something worth saving in everybody and the person making that judgment (Jesus) loves us more than anybody else? Would that belief be compatible with Christianity as you understand it?

Historical orthodoxy has deemed it unorthodox to be certain that all will be saved, but that it is an acceptable (if minority opinion) to hope that all may be saved.

Universalism generally refers to the former.

 

[Mediaeval]

Some Christians have affirmed universalism or at least that universal salvation is possible: Universalist or universalist-friendly works in the public domain : ChristianUniversalism

The Bible does say after all that "the living God...is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" (1 Timothy 4:10)

 

[aiki]

Just curious what you guys think of the idea of a universal hope of salvation through Jesus irrespective of religious beliefs, lifestyle, character, etc. Maybe there is something worth saving in everybody and the person making that judgment (Jesus) loves us more than anybody else? Would that belief be compatible with Christianity as you understand it?

If one accepts the teaching of the Bible, God's Word, one must accept the fact that salvation is not universal. What people feel or want to believe may diverge from the declaration of Scripture, but in doing so they cease to hold to a biblical and Christian belief. The Bible is very clear that

Mat 7:14 ...strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it.

Most people seem to think that hell and God's love are incompatible, even contradictory. But hell is complementary rather than contradictory to God's love. How so?

Well, what is hell fundamentally? Is it merely God being nasty and cruel? No, not at all. It is the judgment of a holy, righteous, just God upon the wicked rebellion of sinful creatures. The heart of this judgment is full, complete separation of unrepentant sinners from their holy Creator. THere may well be flames, smoke, darkness, and pain in hell but these, I think, are secondary to the real torment of hell which is the utter and eternal isolation of the sinner from God. Is this separation unfair or unloving? No, in fact, it is God giving the sinner exactly what they want. What defiant sinner would crave the eternal presence of the holy God they despise? What sinner would want to spend eternity worshipping the God against whom they rebelled all their time on earth? Heaven would be the last place the unrepentant sinner would want to be! What a strange and ultimately cruel thing it would be for God to force a person who hates Him to worship Him for all eternity. Heaven is for those who love God!

God's judgment of the wicked means that He allows no one to "get away with it." It would be an evil thing for God to do otherwise. To let the rapist, or serial killer, or genocidal dictator, or murderer who is never caught and/or brought to justice to escape facing punishment for their wicked deeds would not show love to the victims of these evil people, but a cruel carelessness. It is, then, an act of love as well as justice when God judges the wicked.

Is hell a matter of God overdoing it? Again, no. We are quick to justify ourselves, to make our sin small, to avoid the guilt and condemnation of our evil conduct. We are easy with sin. Too easy. We have made friends of it and call it good. When God punishes our cherished sin as He does we think, then, He is unjust and over-reacting, but this is a testament, not to God's excess, but to our familiarity with, and love of, sin. The terrible judgment of hell that God renders upon our sin reveals the awfulness of our sin. Our sin is so vile, so bad, that hell is the only appropriate response of God to it. Oh, but this is hard to acknowledge! Sin can't really be that bad. But hell speaks loudly of what God thinks of our sin, of how truly horrendous it is. And if it is so truly awful, would God be a good God and let it all slide? Would God be holy and just if He turned a blind eye to what is so deeply evil? Could we be confident in God's love if He were willing to let such terrible darkness pass unjudged? I think not.

Hell, then, is not contradictory to God's love. Hell is the necessary and appropriate response of a loving, holy, just God to the wickedness of unrepentant sinners.

Selah.

 

[graceandpeace]

Historical orthodoxy has deemed it unorthodox to be certain that all will be saved, but that it is an acceptable (if minority opinion) to hope that all may be saved.

Universalism generally refers to the former.

^This.

We may hope for all to receive salvation; however, while there are some Christians who go further in believing in universalism, it is not considered an orthodox position to hold.

That said, "heaven & hell" seem to be greatly misunderstood subjects in American Christian thought (& thus in secular thought) & is just often misrepresented. Of course, not all of the answers are crystal clear in Scripture either.

I would say the Christian hope is for resurrection & the setting right of all things. That we can begin participating in the "kingdom of heaven/God" now by following Christ, imitating His love & ministry. "Hell" is to be excluded from that setting right, that kingdom, whatever exactly that will mean.

 

[lesliedellow]

I see many atheists and Christians are troubled by doctrine of hell.

Whether or not you like something has no bearing upon whether or not it is true.

 

[cloudyday2]

Historical orthodoxy has deemed it unorthodox to be certain that all will be saved, but that it is an acceptable (if minority opinion) to hope that all may be saved.

Universalism generally refers to the former.

Thanks, what estimated percentage of Christians have hope that all will be saved? Also are there particular denominations that believe this?

 

[cloudyday2]

^This.

We may hope for all to receive salvation; however, while there are some Christians who go further in believing in universalism, it is not considered an orthodox position to hold.

That said, "heaven & hell" seem to be greatly misunderstood subjects in American Christian thought (& thus in secular thought) & is just often misrepresented. Of course, not all of the answers are crystal clear in Scripture either.

I would say the Christian hope is for resurrection & the setting right of all things. That we can begin participating in the "kingdom of heaven/God" now by following Christ, imitating His love & ministry. "Hell" is to be excluded from that setting right, that kingdom, whatever exactly that will mean.

When I believe in Christianity it is universal salvation in the following way:
(1) Being Christian doesn't mean "being saved"; it only means knowing enough about Jesus to follow his teachings more and to hope in him
(2) The more a Christian knows Jesus the more he/she trusts and hopes in Jesus and the less that person fears death - not because that person is confidence in "being saved" but because that person is confident that Jesus loves them in spite of sinfulness.
(3) As a person has confidence that Jesus loves him/her for no apparent reason, then that person will have confidence that Jesus loves everybody for no apparent reason.

So universal salvation seems to be a natural thing for Christians to believe. The salvation is universal not because it is more fair that way but because Jesus love is universal and it's Jesus love that saves as opposed to anything people can do such as rituals, beliefs, prayers, good behavior.

Are there Christians that agree with that?

 

[cloudyday2]

If one accepts the teaching of the Bible, God's Word, one must accept the fact that salvation is not universal. What people feel or want to believe may diverge from the declaration of Scripture, but in doing so they cease to hold to a biblical and Christian belief. The Bible is very clear that

Mat 7:14 ...strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it.

Most people seem to think that hell and God's love are incompatible, even contradictory. But hell is complementary rather than contradictory to God's love. How so?

Well, what is hell fundamentally? Is it merely God being nasty and cruel? No, not at all. It is the judgment of a holy, righteous, just God upon the wicked rebellion of sinful creatures. The heart of this judgment is full, complete separation of unrepentant sinners from their holy Creator. THere may well be flames, smoke, darkness, and pain in hell but these, I think, are secondary to the real torment of hell which is the utter and eternal isolation of the sinner from God. Is this separation unfair or unloving? No, in fact, it is God giving the sinner exactly what they want. What defiant sinner would crave the eternal presence of the holy God they despise? What sinner would want to spend eternity worshipping the God against whom they rebelled all their time on earth? Heaven would be the last place the unrepentant sinner would want to be! What a strange and ultimately cruel thing it would be for God to force a person who hates Him to worship Him for all eternity. Heaven is for those who love God!

God's judgment of the wicked means that He allows no one to "get away with it." It would be an evil thing for God to do otherwise. To let the rapist, or serial killer, or genocidal dictator, or murderer who is never caught and/or brought to justice to escape facing punishment for their wicked deeds would not show love to the victims of these evil people, but a cruel carelessness. It is, then, an act of love as well as justice when God judges the wicked.

Is hell a matter of God overdoing it? Again, no. We are quick to justify ourselves, to make our sin small, to avoid the guilt and condemnation of our evil conduct. We are easy with sin. Too easy. We have made friends of it and call it good. When God punishes our cherished sin as He does we think, then, He is unjust and over-reacting, but this is a testament, not to God's excess, but to our familiarity with, and love of, sin. The terrible judgment of hell that God renders upon our sin reveals the awfulness of our sin. Our sin is so vile, so bad, that hell is the only appropriate response of God to it. Oh, but this is hard to acknowledge! Sin can't really be that bad. But hell speaks loudly of what God thinks of our sin, of how truly horrendous it is. And if it is so truly awful, would God be a good God and let it all slide? Would God be holy and just if He turned a blind eye to what is so deeply evil? Could we be confident in God's love if He were willing to let such terrible darkness pass unjudged? I think not.

Hell, then, is not contradictory to God's love. Hell is the necessary and appropriate response of a loving, holy, just God to the wickedness of unrepentant sinners.

Selah.

I'm sure what you're saying is theologically sound, but it seems wrong to me. If hell is a punishment and punishment is not contradictory to love, then why should some people escape punishment simply because they are Christians/baptized/saved/slightly less sinful?

It seems like universal salvation is more consistent with Christian ideas IMO.

 

[cloudyday2]

Some Christians have affirmed universalism or at least that universal salvation is possible: Universalist or universalist-friendly works in the public domain : ChristianUniversalism

The Bible does say after all that "the living God...is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" (1 Timothy 4:10)

Thanks, I'll take a look at that link.

 

[cloudyday2]

Whether or not you like something has no bearing upon whether or not it is true.

I agree with that.

 

[aiki]

I'm sure what you're saying is theologically sound, but it seems wrong to me. If hell is a punishment and punishment is not contradictory to love, then why should some people escape punishment simply because they are Christians/baptized/saved/slightly less sinful?

Such people may escape punishment but only because someone else bore their punishment for them. God's judgment is meted out upon all sin; no sin escapes His justice. But God has worked to meet the demands of His own holy justice because we could not. He has fully atoned for our sin through the sacrifice of His own sinless Son - an atonement we could never make by ourselves. One who is saved, then, is not saved because they were better or more deserving than those who are not saved. THe only difference between the saved and the lost is the decision by those who are saved to believe that Jesus did indeed redeem them from the eternal damnation their sin incurs, that He is their Saviour and Lord. And the benefit of the choice to believe in Christ is available to everyone. All that anyone must do to obtain it is to likewise believe. Herein is the love, and grace, and mercy of God revealed.

It seems like universal salvation is more consistent with Christian ideas IMO.

The Bible is the sole source of Christian belief - or it should be. And it is perfectly clear that universalism is a lie. If universalism is true, Jesus did not have to die. Thus, the false doctrine of universalism makes Christ's sacrifice unnecessary, even foolish. What a terrible thought.

Selah.

 

[ebia]

Thanks, what estimated percentage of Christians have hope that all will be saved? Also are there particular denominations that believe this?

I don't think the data exists to answer the first question. I'm guessing quite low since its a position more likely to be held by people with significant theological education than the average pew-sitter.

Its a significant stream of thought in some denominations but I don't know of any denominations that rule out people believing that some will not be saved.

 

[graceandpeace]

So universal salvation seems to be a natural thing for Christians to believe. The salvation is universal not because it is more fair that way but because Jesus love is universal and it's Jesus love that saves as opposed to anything people can do such as rituals, beliefs, prayers, good behavior.

Are there Christians that agree with that?

As already stated, there are some who believe in universal salvation, but it is not the traditional, orthodox position to hold.

Now sure, many would agree that it is by Jesus' love (or more precisely you will hear, by God's gift of grace) rather than specific beliefs, deeds, etc that results in the salvation of a person; further, many would agree that salvation is universally available. However, it is a gift & gifts can be rejected.

If someone does not want to participate in the kingdom of God, it is generally accepted that God will honor that choice.