Universal salvation

[cloudyday2]

I don't think the data exists to answer the first question. I'm guessing quite low since its a position more likely to be held by people with significant theological education than the average pew-sitter.

Its a significant stream of thought in some denominations but I don't know of any denominations that rule out people believing that some will not be saved.

IMO multiculturalism makes the doctrine of hell seem absurd to many people. It is one of the big issues that causes Christians to lose their faith. I think Christian apologists should inform people about the arguments for universal salvation even if they might personally disagree with those arguments.

Here are some quotes from a wikipedia article I found this morning:

The Universalist Church of America, originally called the Universalist General Convention, emerged in the late 18th century from a mixture of Anabaptists, Moravians, liberal Quakers, and people influenced by Pietist movements such as Methodism.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Universalism#cite_note-9 Americans from these religious backgrounds gradually created a new denominational tradition of Christian Universalism during the 19th century. The Universalist Church of America grew to be the sixth largest denomination in the United States at its peak.
...
The Universalist Church of America gradually declined in the early to mid 20th century and merged with the American Unitarian Association in 1961, creating the modern-day Unitarian Universalist Association, which does not officially subscribe to exclusively Christian theology. Christian Universalism largely passed into obscurity for the next few decades with the end of the Universalist Church as a separate denomination. However, the Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship remains as an organization for Christians from the Unitarian Universalist tradition and liberal Christians interested in Unitarianism and Universalismhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Universalism#cite_note-Vincent06-5

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Universalism

 

[hedrick]

Just curious what you guys think of the idea of a universal hope of salvation through Jesus irrespective of religious beliefs, lifestyle, character, etc. Maybe there is something worth saving in everybody and the person making that judgment (Jesus) loves us more than anybody else? Would that belief be compatible with Christianity as you understand it?

There are two views to consider. Universalism says that everyone will be saved. Inclusivism says that non-Christians may be saved. Inclusivism is common. It seems to be the position of the most recent Popes, and is held by the most liberal Protestants (my estimate is at least half).

I think the biggest problem with universalism is that Jesus, Paul and the Revelation all speak of a final judgement, and refer to eternal death and destruction. They don't say how many will be lost, but I think there's an implication that some will be. There are ways to understand Scripture as consistent with universalism. That position has existed since the early church. But most think it's an unreasonable interpretation.

For specifics on universalism, post a question in unorthodox theology. Advocating it is not permitted here.

As to churches, most mainline churches have universalists, though it's not their official view. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainline_Protestant. It's more common in the liberal churches such as Universalists and Quakers

 

[cloudyday2]

There are two views to consider. Universalism says that everyone will be saved. Inclusivism says that non-Christians may be saved. Inclusivism is common. It seems to be the position of the most recent Popes, and is held by the most liberal Protestants (my estimate is at least half).

I think the biggest problem with universalism is that Jesus, Paul and the Revelation all speak of a final judgement, and refer to eternal death and destruction. They don't say how many will be lost, but I think there's an implication that some will be. There are ways to understand Scripture as consistent with universalism. That position has existed since the early church. But most think it's an unreasonable interpretation.

For specifics on universalism, post a question in unorthodox theology. Advocating it is not permitted here.

As to churches, most mainline churches have universalists, though it's not their official view. Mainline Protestant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. It's more common in the liberal churches such as Universalists and Quakers

o.k., I didn't realize universal salvation was a prohibited topic. I don't understand why the idea seems to be such a taboo among most Christians.

Accepting and loving God and Jesus is a natural consequence of knowing[/i[ God and Jesus. It is not supposed to be a transaction to escape eternal torment. So believing in universal salvation doesn't remove the motivation to be a Christian.

When I imagine going to heaven sometimes I cringe at the thought of being cozy with people that I don't like or hate or don't forgive. I imagine sitting outside in the darkness for a while listening to everyone else inside with Jesus celebrating. Hopefully I would eventually soften my heart enough to enter.

I am frustrated when I read so many posts from people who are questioning or rejecting Christianity due to the hell doctrine when there are alternative doctrines. Sometimes I believe in God and it makes me angry to see narrow-minded Christians making it hard for others to believe.

 

[graceandpeace]

There are two views to consider. Universalism says that everyone will be saved. Inclusivism says that non-Christians may be saved. Inclusivism is common. It seems to be the position of the most recent Popes, and is held by the most liberal Protestants (my estimate is at least half).

I think the biggest problem with universalism is that Jesus, Paul and the Revelation all speak of a final judgement, and refer to eternal death and destruction. They don't say how many will be lost, but I think there's an implication that some will be. There are ways to understand Scripture as consistent with universalism. That position has existed since the early church. But most think it's an unreasonable interpretation.

For specifics on universalism, post a question in unorthodox theology. Advocating it is not permitted here.

As to churches, most mainline churches have universalists, though it's not their official view. Mainline Protestant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. It's more common in the liberal churches such as Universalists and Quakers

^thank you, I wish I had thought to mention some of this.

 

[Lukaris]

Consider the Beatitudes in Matthew 5: 1-12, all except the final are virtues that the Lord shows us can be found in Christians & non Christians. While the Lord knows who He will call "blessed" we do not; I know I could never measure up to these. I am thankful to have a savior who has forgiven our sins by His cross, to confess my sins to ( 1st Timothy 2:5), & the hope of salvation to commit to (see Hebrews 10: 19-31).

Yes, there are people who may not know the Lord but honor Him by virtue & doing what is right (see Psalm 15). I would also suggest reading Ezekiel 33: 1-20 with a major focus on vs. 12-20 to know the peril we all share.

If we try to stick to the golden rule (Matthew 7: 1-12) & the 2 great commands (Matthew 22: 36-40) we can increase our hope for many in the fear of the Lord.

 

[Flyboy1818]

Hmmm....ask yourself this, why would Jesus command to go and make disciples of all the nations, why not a select few or the surronding nations in the middle east? I'm asking you this because it is basically saying go forth and preach the Gospel of Jesus, to bring sinners into repentence through the Gospel. Now a universal slavation view is that all will be saved.....if all will be saved why do all the nations need to hear this wonder full Gospel? Why do all the nations have observe all things that Jesus commanded?

But my friend don't worry about that....the Kingdom is still open to those who are still in darkness. We should be faithful servants zealous to do the Father's will, that is to believe in His Son and to go to the ends of the earth preaching the Hope in Jesus Christ. Be thankful those who are lost are still given time to seek the Lord Jesus. Only Jesus can save and we as believers should be praying faithfully to our Father for the lost whom we personally are reaching out too.

We should be praying according to the Word. If someone you know has not placed their faith and trust in Jesus Christ, pray with faith and believe that our Father is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentence (II Peter 3:9). Trust in His promises. We have confidence God hears us if we ask anything in His will. (1 John 5:14). But we are to ask God in faith without doubting (James 1:6)

Faith is what pleases God. Obedience flows from our faith. When I started believing in Jesus, I was still sturggling to come to terms with how my life did not resemble what is written in the bible. It is plain and simple, a Christian is someone who lives by faith and not by sight.

I learned not too long ago that my job was just to believe and obey. If the bible says lay hands on the sick so they will be healed, I believe and obey. If it says by His wounds I am healed, I believe the Promise and decleration by the Word of God. If it says sin has no dominion over me nor am I a slave to sin/strongholds, I believe and trust that Jesus has set me free.

Faith is powerful and faith is what pleases God. Why else would the writer of Hebrews go to great lengths to emphasise this point?

To end, we should be preaching about the goodness of God's love. Read Acts...displays nothing but the Power of God through the Holy Spirit, moving among the Jews and spreading out to the Gentiles. See how we've lost the something here?
When did the church stop preaching about what Jesus has done and start preaching about what death will do if you don't do as Jesus said? Or worse yet, teaching about things of no substance. The power is in the Gospel of Christ and it is up to the believers to trust the Promises of God.

We shouldn't be condemning people to anything....because that hinders the work of the Holy Spirit, trying to reach out to them. What I'm trying to say is, it should be believers goals to get as many people through those gates as possible.

You know why we get side tracked with new doctrines?? Because the church isn't exercising the True Gospel (well most of the church). This is why Paul was speaking out about people and other gospels. Paul preached nothing but the cross. He preached the love of God. The Love of God out weighs the punishment for sins.

Like you said too much "hell doctrine i.e. punishment doctrine" not enough Jesus doctrine and the power of God when reaching out to the lost.

PS One sows another reaps. we're not meant to lead every non-believer we meet into repentance. Sometimes we have to be the ones to plant the seed. That's why ecouragement and preaching of the love of God and Gospel of Jesus Christ is powerful because the Holy Spirit starts to work on that person, and once that seed is planted properly, God will bring the increase.

 

[bling]

Name an example of somebody that would be more comfortable in hell and explain what you think hell is like. What about atheists, Buddhists, etc? Are you claiming that they would be more comfortable in hell or are you claiming that they will go to heaven?

You did not read what I said: “They will not be happy in heaven” is not saying they prefer hell over heaven or would be happier in hell.

Scripture supports the idea of different degrees of punishment/discipline for different types of transgressions. Nonbelievers do not have eternal existence, since Believers are given eternal life. The “flames” of hell are eternal (meaning they cannot be put out by any means) but the things thrown into the flames will be annihilated, but some might linger for a while.

The reason man spends time on earth is to provide the opportunity for all mature adults of their own free will to accept God’s help (mercy/grace/charity/Love/forgiveness). Some mature adults (mostly out of pride) will not humble themselves enough to accept pure charity.

As far as spending time in hell to learn to “Love” God, what kind of “love” would those people have for God? True Godly type Love has to be the result of some free will choice made with likely alternatives (spending more time in hell would not be a likely alternative).

 

[ezeric]

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 11:32

When JESUS (YESHUA) came, HE came and showed the world how IMPOSSIBLE it was
to believe or trust GOD.
Many couldn't handle what HE said.
HE offended many.

Even the disciples asked "who can be saved then?"

HE showed the Law of LOVE over riding their Mosaic Laws, but also showed that
it was impossible to LOVE like that.

'If your enemy strikes you...turn the other.'
'If someone makes you walk a mile....walk two.'
You said 'don't commit adultery but I tell you that if you even look lustfully'...
etc... (their are tons of verses).

So, all people would be trapped in sin and unbelief.
For all have sinned.

Why?

So, that HE (GOD) could have Mercy on them all.

Once you understand, and I mean REALLY experience GRACE (un-conditional love of GOD), then the scriptures will come alive... and you will see that JESUS is LORD of all & every knee will bow.

You will see that in Adam we all die but in CHRIST we shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:22

You never had a say in being born (natural birth) did you?
JESUS said it was the will of man or your Father that you were born.
Well you will find out that its the same Spiritually! You never had a say in the matter.It was the will of your FATHER.

I know this is hard teaching, because we have years/decades of traditional thinking.
I was there in Christian High School and Bible School too.

GODS LOVE does NOT fail.
And you can rest in it!


-eric

 

[aiki]

I am frustrated when I read so many posts from people who are questioning or rejecting Christianity due to the hell doctrine when there are alternative doctrines. Sometimes I believe in God and it makes me angry to see narrow-minded Christians making it hard for others to believe.

People have always taken offense at the idea that they are sinners and that their sin is one day going to be judged and punished by a holy God. But this is the first truth of the Gospel. It makes sense of the atoning work of Christ on the cross of Calvary for our sin.

Declaring the truth of human sinfulness and the judgment of God upon it is not narrow-minded but biblical:

Joh 3:18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:36 He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

1Co 6:9 Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becomes saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this you know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things comes the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Mat 18:8 Wherefore if your hand or your foot offends you, cut them off, and cast them from you: it is better for you to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye offend you, pluck it out, and cast it from you: it is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luk 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom you shall fear: Fear him, who after he has killed has power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

If you have a problem with the doctrine of hell, you have a problem, not with narrow-minded Christians, but with the Bible, the Word of God.

Selah.

 

[cloudyday2]

Thanks, everybody, for those replies. Apparently it is against this subforum's rules to promote universal salvation. Even though the moderators seem very tolerant of mistakes, I don't want to press my luck.

 

[hedrick]

Hmmm....ask yourself this, why would Jesus command to go and make disciples of all the nations, why not a select few or the surronding nations in the middle east? I'm asking you this because it is basically saying go forth and preach the Gospel of Jesus, to bring sinners into repentence through the Gospel. Now a universal slavation view is that all will be saved.....if all will be saved why do all the nations need to hear this wonder full Gospel? Why do all the nations have observe all things that Jesus commanded?

Let's suppose universalism is true. (As noted above, I doubt it, but for purposes of your question, let's suppose it.) Then the most explicit description of judgement is probably 1 Cor 3:12.

That says there are at least 2 advantages to knowing the Gospel:

* Being part of God's Kingdom, knowing him, and living under his teaching, is a better way to live. I truly believe that. And it means more to me that the threat of hell. That may sound odd, but hell is a lot less real to people these days than it was a century or more ago. But Jesus taught that the Kingdom is present now, even though it's in an incomplete form until the End. I think the Kingdom of God is the pearl of great price, which is worth something even without the threat of hell.

* If Paul's model of judgement is right, the person who hasn't followed Jesus may not quite end up in hell, but they still may lose most of their life. Suppose we truly lose what isn't built on Christ. We run the risk of losing everything we did and were, being reset perhaps to when we were an adorable 2 year old.

 

[lesliedellow]

o.k., I didn't realize universal salvation was a prohibited topic. I don't understand why the idea seems to be such a taboo among most Christians.

Pretty well anything goes in forums non believers have access to, but in sections labeled "Orthodox Christians only" - well only orthodox Christianity is allowable in them.

 

[hedrick]

The posted rules say that a non-Christian may ask any question. Responses are by Christians, and must adhere to the CF statement of faith.

 

[cloudyday2]

The posted rules say that a non-Christian may ask any question. Responses are by Christians, and must adhere to the CF statement of faith.

O.k. so here's another question for anybody:

What about the idea that a person dies, goes through a process to fully appreciate their sins, then goes before Jesus where he/she can ask for mercy and may or may not go to heaven? In other words, the things that people hope will save them (such as being born again, being filled with the Holy Spirit, being baptized, loving others, ...) don't affect the outcome, and similarly the things that people assume will seal their doom don't affect the outcome either.

Technically it's not universal salvation, but it is universal dependence on the mercy of Jesus and universal unworthiness of that mercy.

The role of the Christian religion becomes spreading the good news that Jesus earned the right to judge us and forgive our sins (if he wants), and helping people live more righteously.

 

[aiki]

O.k. so here's another question for anybody:

What about the idea that a person dies, goes through a process to fully appreciate their sins, then goes before Jesus where he/she can ask for mercy and may or may not go to heaven? In other words, the things that people hope will save them (such as being born again, being filled with the Holy Spirit, being baptized, loving others, ...) don't affect the outcome, and similarly the things that people assume will seal their doom don't affect the outcome either.

Technically it's not universal salvation, but it is universal dependence on the mercy of Jesus and universal unworthiness of that mercy.

The role of the Christian religion becomes spreading the good news that Jesus earned the right to judge us and forgive our sins (if he wants), and helping people live more righteously.

I don't understand why you want to make up your own ideas about how we come into harmony with God. If the truth about our salvation is what the Bible says it is, making up your own doctrines about salvation serves no useful purpose. THe doctrines of the Bible are not up for grabs; the truths of God's Word are immutable. The Gospel has been what it is for a very long time and it will continue to be the only way humans can be reconciled to God even if kooky, new alternative "gospels" arise. Paul the apostle wrote,

Gal 1:6 I marvel that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be accursed.

So, there were some even at the beginning of Christendom who were proposing changes to the Gospel. Apparently, not everyone liked its message back then, either. But Paul speaks very strongly in the passage above concerning those who would pervert the true Gospel and urge others toward that perversion. Such people are to be held accursed. I would urge you, therefore, to cease trying to do so. The Gospel was not made to coddle and calm wicked sinners but to bring them to repentance and a saving faith in Christ. It was given as a gift to humanity because no human could ever be worthy of God's heaven or ever fully atone for their sin on their own.

Selah.

 

[Rajni]

Just curious what you guys think of the idea of a universal hope of salvation through Jesus irrespective of religious beliefs, lifestyle, character, etc. Maybe there is something worth saving in everybody and the person making that judgment (Jesus) loves us more than anybody else? Would that belief be compatible with Christianity as you understand it?

Yes, I have found it quite compatible.

In fact, it was the bible that set me down the path to researching universal
salvation further and concluding that it was, at the very least, just as
reasonable a soteriological position as any of the others out there.

Pile onto that a Pope—now declared a saint to boot—who also spoke
extensively along similar lines ... it just tickles me pink!



-

 

[cloudyday2]

I don't understand why you want to make up your own ideas about how we come into harmony with God. If the truth about our salvation is what the Bible says it is, making up your own doctrines about salvation serves no useful purpose..
...

I had a dream several years ago that seemed to suggest these things. I can dismiss my dream along with other possible spiritual experiences, but then I would have no evidence for God and I would be an atheist.

 

[cloudyday2]

Yes, I have found it quite compatible.

In fact, it was the bible that set me down the path to researching universal
salvation further and concluding that it was, at the very least, just as
reasonable a soteriological position as any of the others out there.

Pile onto that a Pope—now declared a saint to boot—who also spoke
extensively along similar lines ... it just tickles me pink!



-

That's encouraging. I saw Pope Francis is being criticized by some for promoting universalism. I haven't read the NT in a while, but I don't remember anything that couldn't be reconciled with universalism.

I looked up the Jewish view on hell. It seems very close to my own idea. I think everybody will need to fully appreciate their sins and unworthiness before they can understand the love of Jesus. That matches very closely with gehenna.

Judaism does not have a specific doctrine about the afterlife, but it does have a mystical/Orthodox tradition of describing Gehenna. Gehenna is not Hell, but originally a grave and in later times a sort of Purgatory where one is judged based on one's life's deeds, or rather, where one becomes fully aware of one's own shortcomings and negative actions during one's life.

Hell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[aiki]

I had a dream several years ago that seemed to suggest these things. I can dismiss my dream along with other possible spiritual experiences, but then I would have no evidence for God and I would be an atheist.

Why would your dream be more authoritative than the Bible, which has been THE defining source of Christian belief and practice almost from the beginning of Christianity? Why would you place the content of your dream above the established truth of God's Word? If your dream can trump the Bible, why can't anyone else's dream do the same?

Universalism is not taught in Scripture. This is the simple fact of the matter. If you want to adopt a belief contrary to the teaching of the Bible in this matter that is entirely up to you. Just understand that you do not hold a truly Christian belief in doing so. God's truth is not yours to make.

Selah.

 

[Flyboy1818]

Let's suppose universalism is true. (As noted above, I doubt it, but for purposes of your question, let's suppose it.) Then the most explicit description of judgement is probably 1 Cor 3:12.

But how does that tie into the context of the next few verses particularly (1 Cor. 3:16,17). Should we ignore the part where it says our body is the temple of God and God will destory those who defile the temple? This passage from the verse you stated to 17 is talking about the believer which I am sure it is because Paul is addressing the carnal Christian....one who still holds on to things of this world, especially the wisdom of men. If this is so, if God can destory a believer for defiling the temple of God....how much worse is it for someone who rejects the Gospel of Christ, the reconciliation to our Creator.

Yes we as believers are held at higher standards because we do something that non-believers don't. We carry the authority and name of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are bondservants, serving in our Master's name whom all authority has been given in heaven and on earth.

But I don't want to dwell the consequences of not believing. Like I stated, condemning non-believers creates hearts of stone and hinders the work of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus didn't come to condemn people...He came to save people. It's simple and that's the Gospel, the Good News, which is the Love of God. We pray faithful for those whom we see and plant the seed or water it, knowing that God will be faithful and bring the increase.

One plants, another waters and God brings the increase.