Universal Salvation - Did you know that this is at the core of the Gospel?

Hewillcome2040 · Dec 29, 2017

jerry kelso said:
hewillcome2040,

1. These are just your opinions and conjectures and not Bible context.
You are just bringing up objections to cast doubt of the truth of this passage to make it appear like your doctrine has validity when it doesn't.

That is unfair, corrected and incorrect exegesis no matter how much you thinks it makes sense.

2. The flame of the tongue shows there is torment in hell for the soul though the physical body is in the grave and dead as a doorknob. Jerry kelso

When you take it literally then you remind me of someone that would take this literally:

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Did you actually think Jesus was talking to literal snakes? Or rather do you think He was talking figuratively? (Parabolically).

You see Jesus is the one that gave the parabe of Lazarus and the rich man. But you think it is not a parable. Look here:

Mat_13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

So when Jesus spoke to the multitudes, he spoke in parables. So was the account of the rich man and lazarus spoken to the multitude - YES. How do we know. Because He spoke a parable earlier to the same group in Luke 16:1 with the The Parable of the Dishonest Manager. So that proves this was the multitude that He was speaking to.

mkgal1 · Dec 29, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Look instead to Scripture and true teaching in the BIBLE.

Instead? What makes you think I've not gotten this from Scripture and true teaching in the Bible? Because you interpret differently?

From Ancient Faith Ministries:

In practice, most people are atheists, although many of them theoretically still believe. Indifference and the spirit of this world prevail everywhere.

What is the reason for this state?

The reason is the cooling of love. Love for God no more burns in human hearts, and in consequence, love between us is dead, too.

What is the cause of this waning of men’s love for God? The answer, certainly, is sin. Sin is the dark cloud which does not permit God’s light to reach our eyes.

But sin always did exist. So how did we arrive at the point of not simply ignoring God, but of actually hating Him? Man’s attitude toward God today is not really ignorance, or really indifference. If you examine men carefully you will notice that their ignorance or indifference is tainted by a deep hate. But nobody hates anything that does not exist.

I have the suspicion that men today believe in God more than at any other time in human history. Men know the gospel, the teaching of the Church, and God’s creation better than at any other time. They have a profound consciousness of His existence. Their atheism is not a real disbelief. It is rather an aversion toward somebody we know very well but whom we hate with all our heart, exactly as the demons do.

We hate God, that is why we ignore Him, overlooking Him as if we did not see Him, and pretending to be atheists. In reality we consider Him our enemy par excellence. Our negation is our vengeance, our atheism is our revenge.

But why do men hate God? They hate Him not only because their deeds are dark while God is light, but also because they consider Him as a menace, as an imminent and eternal danger, as an adversary in court, as an opponent at law, as a public prosecutor and an eternal persecutor. To them, God is no more the almighty physician who came to save them from illness and death, but rather a cruel judge and a vengeful inquisitor.

You see, the devil managed to make men believe that God does not really love us, that He really only loves Himself, and that He accepts us only if we behave as He wants us to behave; that He hates us if we do not behave as He ordered us to behave, and is offended by our insubordination to such a degree that we must pay for it by eternal tortures, created by Him for that purpose.

Who can love a torturer? Even those who try hard to save themselves from the wrath of God cannot really love Him. They love only themselves, trying to escape God’s vengeance and to achieve eternal bliss by managing to please this fearsome and extremely dangerous Creator.

Do you perceive the devil’s slander of our all loving, all kind, and absolutely good God? That is why in Greek the devil was given the name DIABOLOS, “the slanderer”.

From John Shore:

The theory of Eternal Torment posits that upon death Christians go to heaven, while all non-Christians to hell.

Annihilationism teaches that upon dying some Christians go to heaven, while everyone else is annihilated into nothingness.

Universalism teaches that after death literally everyone is eventually reconciled, redeemed, and ushered into heaven.

At different times in history each of these theories of hell has enjoyed prominence over the other two.

Today, of course, the theory of Eternal Damnation reigns supreme.

Isn’t it interesting that the theory of Eternal Damnation is the only theory among the three which lends itself to making money? Why? Because it’s the only one that engenders profound fear of the afterlife. If you want people to pay money to support your institution, you can’t beat making foundational to that institution the belief that not supporting it condemns one to eternal torture.

To quote … well, me (from this post): Show me a Christian terrified of hell, and I’ll show you a Christian ready to pay good money for the assurance that he or she isn’t going there.

Read more at Proof that believing in hell is not Scriptural

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 29, 2017

mkgal1 said:
Instead? What makes you think I've not gotten this from Scripture and true teaching in the Bible? Because you interpret differently?

The errors in your posts have been pointed out frequently, or at least observed frequently and pointed out sometimes.
It has nothing to do with your or mine interpretation,
but a lot to do with the other sources you use to try to defend the false things you've been taught.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 29, 2017

Hewillcome2040 said:
ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

without repentance now on earth before they die, they cannot escape the damnation of hell.

So, 1 true post. GOOD , GOOD and VERY GOOD NOW. KEEP GOING !

gordonhooker · Dec 29, 2017

TerryWoodenpic said:
I suggest I might be wasting my time. if you do not believe that Study, science and reason, support, not hinder, Faith.
For instance do you believe in a young earth? or disbelieve evolution? because of uncritical belief in the bible. If that is so, we have more than Universal Salvation separating us from reality.

There are a lot of people on this form that do believe those things it is scary really. What is even scarier is some of them may be licensed to operate heavy machinery.

mkgal1 · Dec 29, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
That's a new-agey reinterpretation of holiness.

It may be in line with new-age....but it's not a "new" belief.

In Greek, the term is apocatastasis:

Apocatastasis or apokatastasis (from Greek: ἀποκατάστασις; literally, "restoration" or "return") is the teaching that everyone will, in the end, be saved. It looks toward the ultimate reconciliation of good and evil; all creatures endowed with reason, angels and humans, will eventually come to a harmony in God's kingdom. It is based on, among other things, St. Peter's speech in Acts 3.21 ("Christ Jesus who must remain in heaven until the time of the final restoration of all things χρόνων ἀποκαταστάσεως πάντων") and St. Paul's letter to Timothy in which he says that it is God's will that all men should be saved (1 Timothy 2.4).

For Origen, this explicitly included the devil. In effect, apocatastasis denies the final reality of hell, and interprets all Biblical references to the "fires of hell" not as an eternal punishment, but a tool of divine teaching and correction, akin to purgatory. The implication is that hell exists to separate good from evil in the soul.

Among Catholics in the twentieth-century, this doctrine was reinvigorated especially by Hans Urs von Balthasar, who, in his book Dare We Hope 'That All Men Be Saved? (1988), expressed a qualified version of apocatastasis in which we may "hope" that all will be saved. Keeping in mind the conciliar condemnation of Origen, Orthodox theologians who tend towards universalism (the belief that all will be saved) usually argue that all may be saved.

mkgal1 · Dec 29, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
The errors in your posts have been pointed out frequently, or at least observed frequently and pointed out sometimes.
It has nothing to do with your or mine interpretation,
but a lot to do with the other sources you use to try to defend the false things you've been taught.

This is merely opinion.

mkgal1 · Dec 29, 2017

Besides learning about the different theories of the "why" of His incarnation.......one would also benefit to do a bit of study of the Church history (mainly the first and great schism between the Eastern Orthodox church and the Roman Catholic church around 1054).

mkgal1 · Dec 29, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
That's a new-agey reinterpretation of holiness.

If you disagree that "holiness" means "wholeness".....then what is YOUR interpretation of "holiness"?

Ray Stedman said:
If you want to get at the meaning of this word you must go back to its original root. This word is derived from the same root from which a very attractive English word comes. This is the word wholeness. So that holiness means "wholeness," being complete. And if you read wholeness in place of holiness everywhere you find it in the Bible you will be much closer to what the writers of that book meant. We all know what wholeness is: It is to have together all the parts which were intended to be there, and to have them functioning as they were intended to function.

That is what God is talking about. He says to this people, "you shall be whole, because I am whole." God is complete; he is perfect. There is no blemish in God; he lives in harmony with himself. He is a beautiful person. He is absolutely what a person ought to be. He is filled with joy and love and peace. He lives in wholeness. And he looks at us in our brokenness and says to us, "You, too, shall be whole."~The Way to Wholeness | Leviticus 20:26 | RayStedman.org

FireDragon76 · Dec 29, 2017

The Lutheran confessions seem to have a thing to say on the notion of apocatastasis, specifically the Augsburg Confession itself, and also the 1530 Confutation with the Romanists:

Article XVII
so they teach that at the Consummation of the World Christ will appear for judgment, and 2] will raise up all the dead; He will give to the godly and elect eternal life and everlasting joys, 3] but ungodly men and the devils He will condemn to be tormented without end.

4] They condemn the Anabaptists, who think that there will be an end to the punishments of condemned men and devils.

5] They condemn also others who are now spreading certain Jewish opinions, that before the resurrection of the dead the godly shall take possession of the kingdom of the world, the ungodly being everywhere suppressed.

To Article XVII.
The confession of the seventeenth article is received, since from the Apostles' Creed and the Holy Scripture the entire Catholic Church knows that Christ will come at the last day to judge the quick and the dead. Therefore they justly condemn here the Anabaptists, who think there will be an end of punishments to condemned men and devils, and imagine certain Jewish kingdoms of the godly, before the resurrection of the dead, in this present world, the wicked being everywhere suppressed.

These documents have for us generally been understood to have the status of ecumenical councils, as true expositions of our faith. Of course they are not necessarily the final word on all things about God, but we cannot simply agree that apocatasis is true just because some ancient authority said so.

Hewillcome2040 · Dec 29, 2017

mkgal1 said:
It may be in line with new-age....but it's not a "new" belief.

In Greek, the term is apocatastasis:

Apocatastasis or apokatastasis (from Greek: ἀποκατάστασις; literally, "restoration" or "return") is the teaching that everyone will, in the end, be saved. It looks toward the ultimate reconciliation of good and evil; all creatures endowed with reason, angels and humans, will eventually come to a harmony in God's kingdom. It is based on, among other things, St. Peter's speech in Acts 3.21 ("Christ Jesus who must remain in heaven until the time of the final restoration of all things χρόνων ἀποκαταστάσεως πάντων") and St. Paul's letter to Timothy in which he says that it is God's will that all men should be saved (1 Timothy 2.4).

For Origen, this explicitly included the devil. In effect, apocatastasis denies the final reality of hell, and interprets all Biblical references to the "fires of hell" not as an eternal punishment, but a tool of divine teaching and correction, akin to purgatory. The implication is that hell exists to separate good from evil in the soul.

Among Catholics in the twentieth-century, this doctrine was reinvigorated especially by Hans Urs von Balthasar, who, in his book Dare We Hope 'That All Men Be Saved? (1988), expressed a qualified version of apocatastasis in which we may "hope" that all will be saved. Keeping in mind the conciliar condemnation of Origen, Orthodox theologians who tend towards universalism (the belief that all will be saved) usually argue that all may be saved.

There is no saving of the devil. I think people don't understand the devil because they don't understand what a spirit it.

FireDragon76 · Dec 29, 2017

mkgal1 said:
If you disagree that "holiness" means "wholeness".....then what is YOUR interpretation of "holiness"?

Sanctification by God for his purposes. Lutherans do not understand it necessarily as a process of spiritual growth, moral progress, or self-insight, as you seem to imply. Sanctification involves our cooperation with God to serve in our vocations.

TheBibleIsTruth · Dec 29, 2017

How can LIE directly from the devil be "core of the Gospel". The Bible very clearly says that those who have the mark of the beast will not be in heaven. Are you saying that this is wrong?

Hewillcome2040 · Dec 29, 2017

TheBibleIsTruth said:
How can LIE directly from the devil be "core of the Gospel". The Bible very clearly says that those who have the mark of the beast will not be in heaven. Are you saying that this is wrong?

For how long does it say they wont be in Heaven?

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 29, 2017

mkgal1 said:
This is merely opinion.

Not according to YHWH, His Word, and His Spirit.
Whenever anyone will sit still long enough, and answer the probing questions , this is easily proven.

Whenever anyone volunteers sources without even asking for them,
sources that are opposed all the time to God's Word,

it is a slam dunk. (already done).

TheBibleIsTruth · Dec 29, 2017

Hewillcome2040 said:
For how long does it say they wont be in Heaven?

show me where it says that any of the wicked shall be in heaven? The Bible clearly says: "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” - Revelation 21:8. No one has any right or justification to assume anything more than what the Bible very clearly teaches on this. God is Holy and NO one who is unholy (wicked) can ever dwell in the Lord's presence!

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 29, 2017

mkgal1 said:
It may be in line with new-age....but it's not a "new" belief.

Heresy is not "new". It has been around since the first century.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 29, 2017

mkgal1 said:
Besides learning about the different theories of the "why" of His incarnation.......one would also benefit to do a bit of study of the Church history (mainly the first and great schism between the Eastern Orthodox church and the Roman Catholic church around 1054).

Like I posted a few minutes ago: "slam dunk".......

Hewillcome2040 · Dec 29, 2017

TheBibleIsTruth said:
show me where it says that any of the wicked shall be in heaven? The Bible clearly says: "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” - Revelation 21:8. No one any any right or justification to assume anything more than what the Bible very clearly teaches on this. God is Holy and NO one who is unholy (wicked) can ever dwell in the Lord's presence!

There is nobody that is wicked that goes to heaven. So again show me where it says how long those wicked wont be in Heaven.

Kenny'sID · Dec 29, 2017

TerryWoodenpic said:
For that to be so, we would need to believe that there actually was a physical hell, and a physical heaven for that matter.
I believe in neither.
I do not even hope to retain my identity when I die.
I am sure that the return of my soul to God is the most I can expect to happen.

The bible writers invented all sorts of things about both heaven and hell, partly to give hope, and partly to control people... much like the stick and carrot.

When it comes down to it, no one has the least idea what comes next. or if we will even be aware of it.

Duly noted and added to the the post to which you replied.

Thanks for reminding me of that take on things.

Universal Salvation - Did you know that this is at the core of the Gospel?

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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