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Universal Salvation - Did you know that this is at the core of the Gospel?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Hewillcome2040, Dec 25, 2017.

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  1. Hewillcome2040

    Hewillcome2040 Member

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    I already showed it was a parable and based on my description you have not provided any contrary evidence.
     
  2. Hewillcome2040

    Hewillcome2040 Member

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    Greek Scholars all day different meaning including Lennep who says the meaning as I promote the word. So don't give me scholars. I don't rely on other these "men" to dictate how I should understand Christ. I seen how the word is used in the Bible and I KNOW the meaning.
     
  3. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The bit about condemning the doctrine of the Anabaptists, that there will be an end to the punishment of those men and devils who are condemned when Christ returns. That sounds vaguely like a condemnation of apokatastasis. And it goes on to say that Christ himself will "condemn ungodly men and the devils" to punishment "without end".
     
  4. TheBibleIsTruth

    TheBibleIsTruth Well-Known Member

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    all the best!
     
  5. TheBibleIsTruth

    TheBibleIsTruth Well-Known Member

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    "Apocatastasis", is a heresy that is from the pit of hell! and an affront to the God of the Holy Bible, and His Infallible Word!
     
  6. Hewillcome2040

    Hewillcome2040 Member

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    Thank you. Meet you some day on the other side of the 2nd Coming along with everyone else. ;-)
     
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  7. TheBibleIsTruth

    TheBibleIsTruth Well-Known Member

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    "For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions" (2 Timothy 4:3)

    Hope you are not one of them!
     
  8. Hewillcome2040

    Hewillcome2040 Member

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    Go look at the unforgiving servant parable. You'll see he is only punished TILL the debt is paid.
     
  9. Hewillcome2040

    Hewillcome2040 Member

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    You'll know if you don't see me in 2040 when I come to reign with Christ.
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." (EO scholar David Bentley Hart) Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart



    Lusts (or desires) would include the hateful, murderous kind, those attributed to the devil by the same Greek word here:

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    Groups such as the KKK, for example, attract such people with a lust for hate.

    "Historically the KKK used terrorism, both physical assault and murder, against groups or individuals whom they opposed."

    The lusts, desires and works of the flesh include wrath, hatred, idolatry:

    Gal.5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
    19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like...

    Jer. 7:30 "For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in My sight," declares the LORD, "they have set their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. 31"They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire,which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.

    The lust of the flesh also includes those who delight in the thought they are special, better than others, or that others will roast in hell. They can't bear the thought that people like Hitler or tax collectors would ever be saved. In that regard, the Pharisees & their followers in Jesus' time come to mind. For various reasons the endless punishment fantasy appeals to a certain type of people and their hateful lusts.

    Both sadistic & masochistic types would be attracted to the ECT teaching, including abusers, those who have been abused & feel they deserve it, etc.

    2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    Such as the fable or myth of endless torments of the Dark & Middle ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of "heretics", etc.

    In contrast to the fables & myths of endless torments, Paul says again to Timothy:

    1Tim.4:9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    1Tim.2 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  11. Hewillcome2040

    Hewillcome2040 Member

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    You do realize that all undeserved persecutions only reward me when He comes, don't you?
     
  12. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    hewillcome2040,

    1. You are not being truthful about the truth but f the word.

    2. Your description is not accurate because you are taking a scripture that appears all inclusive and is by itself without a context.
    If you don't understand this then you mostly believe in more allegorical interpretation which leads mostly to making anything say what you want it to say.

    3. Matthew 13:2; Jesus spoke many things unto them in parables.
    Matthew 13:2-8 is the parable of the sower.
    Verse 10, the disciples ask Jesus, why speakers thou unto them in parables?
    Verse 11, Jesus answers back; because it is given unto you (the disciples) to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given.
    Verses 12:15 Jesus tells why about giving the mysteries to the disciples and not the people.
    Then he goes back to finish the parables of the sowers.
    The reso of the chapter is about the KoH parables.

    4. The true story of Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable and is not said to be.
    Also, Jesus never used real names which Lazarus is a real name who lived on earth and was a beggar and died and went to Abraham's bosom and the rich man really lived and died and went to hell.
    Abraham was real too and that was his real name.
    So this was no parable. The KoH was like was not in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
    Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount to the people and they were not parables.
    Jesus didn't always speak to them in parables and the KoH was like was not in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
    Also, the story of the rich man and Lazarus had real names which he never used in other parables and this true story has nothing to do with the KoH reign or mysteries of the KoH. You are wrong again. Jerry kelso
     
  13. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Can any example or parable of actions or events in this life accurately portray anything in paradise? What about these servants?
    Matthew 24:50-51
    (50) The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
    (51) And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    Matthew 25:30
    (30) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    Luke 20:16
    (16) He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
     
  14. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    hewillcome2040,
    1. You are not being truthful about the truth but f the word.
    2. Your description is not accurate because you are taking a scripture that appears all inclusive and is by itself without a context.
    If you don't understand this then you mostly believe in more allegorical interpretation which leads mostly to making anything say what you want it to say.
    3. Matthew 13:2; Jesus spoke many things unto them in parables.
    Matthew 13:2-8 is the parable of the sower.
    Verse 10, the disciples ask Jesus, why speakers thou unto them in parables?
    Verse 11, Jesus answers back; because it is given unto you (the disciples) to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given.
    Verses 12:15 Jesus tells why about giving the mysteries to the disciples and not the people.
    Then he goes back to finish the parables of the sowers.
    The reso of the chapter is about the KoH parables.
    4. The true story of Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable and is not said to be.
    Also, Jesus never used real names which Lazarus is a real name who lived on earth and was a beggar and died and went to Abraham's bosom and the rich man really lived and died and went to hell.
    Abraham was real too and that was his real name.
    So this was no parable. The KoH was like was not in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
    Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount to the people and they were not parables.
    Jesus didn't always speak to them in parables and the KoH was like was not in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
    Also, the story of the rich man and Lazarus had real names which he never used in other parables and this true story has nothing to do with the KoH reign or mysteries of the KoH. You are wrong again. Jerry kelso
    All of the early church fathers who quote or make reference to Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual. They were native Greek speakers.
    • Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.] Against Heresies Book II [pupil of Polycarp, who was a pupil of John the apostle]
    ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
    In that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him — [Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead.
    • Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book IV.
    Chap II 3. ...And again, the Lord Himself exhibits Abraham as having said to the rich man, with reference to all those who were still alive: “If they do not obey Moses and the prophets, neither, if any one were to rise from the dead and go to them, will they believe him.” (Luk_16:31)
    4. Now, He has not merely related to us a story respecting a poor man and a rich one; but He has taught us, in the first place, that no one should lead a luxurious life, nor, living in worldly pleasures and perpetual feastings, should be the slave of his lusts, and forget God. “For there was,” He says, “a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen, and delighted himself with splendid feasts.” (Luk_6:19) Of such persons, too, the Spirit has spoken by Esaias: “They drink wine with [the accompaniment of] harps, and tablets, and psalteries, and flutes; but they regard not the works of God, neither do they consider the work of His hands.” (Isa_5:12)
    • Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] Treatise on the Soul
    ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
    In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
    • Tertullian On Idolatry
    ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
    Thus, too, Eleazar in Hades, (attaining refreshment in Abraham’s bosom) and the rich man, (on the other hand, set in the torment of fire) compensate, by an answerable retribution, their alternate vicissitudes of evil and good.
    • Clement Of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor “
    There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the hay. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
    • Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
    Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
    • Archelaus [A.D. 277.] The Acts of the Disputation with the Heresiarch Manes.
    41. There was a certain rich man, (Luk_16:19, etc.) who lived after the manner of the Gentiles, and passed his time in great luxury every day; and there was also another man, a poor man, who was his neighbour, and who was unable to procure even his daily bread. It happened that both these men departed this life, that they both descended into the grave,333 and that the poor man was conveyed into the place of rest, and so forth, as is known to you. But, furthermore, that rich man had also five brothers, living as he too had lived, and disturbed by no doubt as to lessons which they had learned at home from such a master. The rich man then entreated that these should be instructed in the superior doctrine together and at once.334 But Abraham, knowing that they still stood in need of the paedagogue, said to him: “They have Moses and the prophets.” For if they received not these, so as to have their course directed by him, i.e., Moses, as by a paedagogue, they would not be capable of accepting the doctrine of the superior master.
    • Methodius [A.D. 260-312.] From the Discourse on the Resurrection. Part III.
    XIX. He says that Origen holds these opinions which he refutes. And there may be a doubt concerning Lazarus and the rich man. The simpler persons think that these things were spoken as though both were receiving their due for the things which they had done in life in their bodies; but the more accurate think that, since no one is left in life after the resurrection, these things do not happen at the resurrection. For the rich man says: “I have five brethren; . . . lest they also ome into this place of torment,” (Luk_16:28) send Lazarus, that he may tell them of those things hich are here. And, therefore, if we ask respecting the “tongue,” and the “finger,” and “Abraham’s bosom,” and the reclining there, it may perhaps be that the soul receives in the change a form similar in appearance to its gross and earthly body.
    But the rich man in torment, and the poor man who was comforted in the bosom of Abraham, are said, the one to be punished in Hades, and the other to be comforted in Abraham’s bosom, before the appearing of the Saviour, and before the end of the world, and therefore before the resurrection; teaching that now already, at the change, the soul rises a body.
    Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
     
  15. Hewillcome2040

    Hewillcome2040 Member

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    The parable of lazarus and the rich man is exactly that - a parable. I'm sorry you don't see that. But I showed that scriptures that show these points:

    1.) Jesus speaks to the multitudes ALWAYS in parables.
    2.) Jesus was telling this account of the rich man and lazarus to the multitude.

    Very easy here to connect dots on this one.

    Regarding the sermon on the mount - it was not to the Multitudes.
     
  16. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Well...it's not a heresy ....but explain to me why you believe it's an affront to God? I don't think you're understanding what apokatastasis is.
     
  17. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    All of these views are accepted in Christianity:

    [​IMG]
     
  18. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    My husband and I have been watching this mini-series....based on a true story about the days of King James and the persecution of English Catholics. I recommend it. I think everyone should see where this reasoning naturally leads.

    What's great about having the faith that God *will* restore ALL (in and with His glory)....is there's no need to declare others "wrong" (God will work it out). It's indescribably freeing....and it's much easier to allow others to (with the help of the Holy Spirit) work out their beliefs on their own. IOW.....there's no need to be controlling about it. It's a relief.

     
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  19. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    hewillcome2040,

    1. Matthew 13:3; And he spake many things into them in parables. This is not an all inclusive.
    Verse 10, they ask, why speakers thou unto them in parables can be all inclusive by itself for other context but the reason it is not is because it is all inclusive to the mysteries of the kingdom in verse 11 which is the context.
    Verse 13 still points to the mysteries of the kingdom.
    Verses 34; all these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parables spake he not to them.
    That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. This was still in reference to the mysteries of the kingdom. That is the context.

    2. The Sermon on the Mount is to the multitudes and that is why Jesus went up the mountain so they could hear him.
    His disciples came unto him to be close.
    The SOTM are not the mysteries of the kingdom.
    They are about the backslidden condition of Israel and what they had to do to get back into covenant for they were not living the law.
    Verse 4 is about repentance in the word mourn.
    Verse 5 is the Jews had to be meek in order to inherit the earthly kingdom.
    6. They had to hunger and thirst after righteousness to be filled. They had to be the pure in heart and peacemakers. They had more than 28 insurrections against Rome so they were no trying to be a peace.
    Doing all those things to in right standing with God and be the salt of the earth and the light of the world.

    7. The SOTM ends in Matthew 7:28; And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, THE PEOPLE WERE ASTONISHED AT HIS DOCTRINE.
    The people were the multitudes not the disciples.
    So once again you are wrong! Jerry kelso
     
  20. Hewillcome2040

    Hewillcome2040 Member

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    Good job to the Universalists here. Great arguments posted.
     
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