Universal Salvation and Spans of Time?

[GoldenKingGaze]

When Satan and the other angels fell with him, God and the holy angels, found no place for them in Heaven and they went into a penalty fiery environment. Somehow after their betrayal, there was nothing better for them, God being good. He had no choice. Satan and his angels could repent or there was no way back, even if they tried to return, they would be in debt. When we sin, we know what we are doing much less, but can end up in the fire prepared for fallen angels.

Jesus paid the price for us, but if we don't in turn forgive we must, pay, our fine. After that, perhaps we can enter life?

At the judgment, people may be shown mercy. But then it mentions the lake burning with fire and sulphur. Will they ever be given another chance, and might Satan himself repent and bring the others out with him?

Looking at the time until judgment, until the Earth's interior cools, until the sun becomes a red giant, until the solar system falls into a black hole, until there is no more light in the universe, and entropy stops increasing, with everything at the same temperature? As from this time lapse video: End of the Universe 2 Billion trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion years from now. Will they then or after have no more to pay and find God and life?

NKJV
Revelation 12:8
Matthew 25:41
Matthew 5:22-26
Revelation 19:20

 

[Maria Billingsley]

When Satan and the other angels fell with him, God and the holy angels, found no place for them in Heaven and they went into a penalty fiery environment. Somehow after their betrayal, there was nothing better for them, God being good. He had no choice. Satan and his angels could repent or there was no way back, even if they tried to return, they would be in debt. When we sin, we know what we are doing much less, but can end up in the fire prepared for fallen angels.

Jesus paid the price for us, but if we don't in turn forgive we must, pay, our fine. After that, perhaps we can enter life?

At the judgment, people may be shown mercy. But then it mentions the lake burning with fire and sulphur. Will they ever be given another chance, and might Satan himself repent and bring the others out with him?

Looking at the time until judgment, until the Earth's interior cools, until the sun becomes a red giant, until the solar system falls into a black hole, until there is no more light in the universe, and entropy stops increasing, with everything at the same temperature? As from this time lapse video: End of the Universe 2 Billion trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion years from now. Will they then or after have no more to pay and find God and life?

NKJV
Revelation 12:8
Matthew 25:41
Matthew 5:22-26
Revelation 19:20

Jesus Christ of Nazareth paid the fine for sin. Those who reject Him will not be with Him, ever. Blessings.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

There is a thing called the just recompense of reward. That is the punishment fits the crime.
God is just. God is fair. Beyond that, God is compassionate.
Whatever happens will be right and just.
Not to worry. This is His business.

 

[bling]

When Satan and the other angels fell with him, God and the holy angels, found no place for them in Heaven and they went into a penalty fiery environment. Somehow after their betrayal, there was nothing better for them, God being good. He had no choice. Satan and his angels could repent or there was no way back, even if they tried to return, they would be in debt. When we sin, we know what we are doing much less, but can end up in the fire prepared for fallen angels.

Jesus paid the price for us, but if we don't in turn forgive we must, pay, our fine. After that, perhaps we can enter life?

At the judgment, people may be shown mercy. But then it mentions the lake burning with fire and sulphur. Will they ever be given another chance, and might Satan himself repent and bring the others out with him?

Looking at the time until judgment, until the Earth's interior cools, until the sun becomes a red giant, until the solar system falls into a black hole, until there is no more light in the universe, and entropy stops increasing, with everything at the same temperature? As from this time lapse video: End of the Universe 2 Billion trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion years from now. Will they then or after have no more to pay and find God and life?

NKJV
Revelation 12:8
Matthew 25:41
Matthew 5:22-26
Revelation 19:20

We have offended God. There is not payment that can make up for our offending God, but God can forgive us and we can humbly accept that forgiveness as pure undeserved charity.

 

[Receivedgrace]

Doctrinally biblical salvation is based solely on God's grace. Grace received by faith into the believing heart. Repentance is the result of believing Gods word under conviction of the Holy Spirit.

God sent His Son Jesus into the world that the world through Him might be saved from their sins. Those who believe in Jesus according to what the word of God teaches are saved. Those who do not believe or simply change what Gods word says on the matter are not saved and will not see eternal life.

God does the seeking, God does the saving and God does the sealing unto eternal life.

 

[ozso]

The way the Christian version of universal reconciliation / redemption works is the wicked are purged of their sin in the lake of fire. So the idea is that it's a healing process, rather than punitive.

The last selection: Their bodies and souls cease to exist, burned up in the fire. They'll be forgotten forever. Is not within the doctrine of universal salvation, but is rather the separate doctrine of annihilation.

 

[Der Alte]

The way the Christian version of universal reconciliation / redemption works is the wicked are purged of their sin in the lake of fire. So the idea is that it's a healing process, rather than punitive.
The last selection: Their bodies and souls cease to exist, burned up in the fire. They'll be forgotten forever. Is not within the doctrine of universal salvation, but is rather the separate doctrine of annihilation.

"universal reconciliation/redemption" as you have described it, is not scriptural. Several years ago I was flying from the west coast to the east coast for some training. A man seated next to me was reading the Bible. To start a conversation I said, "That's a good book. I like how it ends." He smiled, then I said "You are a military aviator." He looked surprised and said "Do I have a sign on my forehead." I said "No, the [military] glasses and the [military] haircut. I still had the glasses and once had the haircut. Having said that I have read the ending.

Revelation 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Rev. 21:4 no more death but Rev 21:8 says that eight groups of the unrighteous are thrown into the LOF which is still called the "second death."

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

The last chapter, no more death, no more salvation ten more vss. the end. The unjust and the filthy are outside the new Jerusalem.

 

[ozso]

"universal reconciliation/redemption" as you have described it, is not scriptural. Several years ago I was flying from the west coast to the east coast for some training. A man seated next to me was reading the Bible. To start a conversation I said, "That's a good book. I like how it ends." He smiled, then I said "You are a military aviator." He looked surprised and said "Do I have a sign on my forehead." I said "No, the [military] glasses and the [military] haircut. I still had the glasses and once had the haircut. Having said that I have read the ending.

Revelation 21:4​

(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​

Revelation 21:8​

(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Rev. 21:4 no more death but Rev 21:8 says that eight groups of the unrighteous are thrown into the LOF which is still called the "second death."

Revelation 22:11​

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

The last chapter, no more death, no more salvation ten more vss. the end. The unjust and the filthy are outside the new Jerusalem.

I'm not interested in debating universal salvation in this thread. I just explained what the doctrine is. The same as I would explain any doctrine whether orthodox or heretical.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm not interested in debating universal salvation in this thread. I just explained what the doctrine is. The same as I would explain any doctrine whether orthodox or heretical.

Others reading your post might have come to a false conclusion. My response was as much for others as for you.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

God's justice is restorative not punitive. But that may not be an absolute. The sin of the angels who fell, may have been an eternal sin, until there was a sacrifice or some unknown measure taken. Or they could have been required to work to repay. But they either refused to work and maintained their malice, or could not alter the state of the spirits by the nature of sin itself. Irreversible? I assume that God does not harden their hearts and they refuse to soften or what is needed to soften them costs more than they would return and they like the snarling thief on the cross beside Jesus, would only mock grace. Not receive humbly, as the good thief.

Scripture says no place was found for them, after the fall or at some point they left the fires and took places in Heaven using the stolen authority of Adam and accused us from there. And they will or have recently or centuries ago, lost their places.

The fire, brings out the best in Satan and the other Satans, it never made them repent. It may make them fear God practically.

God wants to use them as a footstool, He still has them in mind. He still uses Satan in Job. Imagine how good it would be if there was no fall.

So the fire may not only be punitive. The fire may be restorative, at least for young souls, who as of yet have a choice. And a sacrifice they can turn to humbly with the whole heart. But for those who commit the eternal sin, it is the fiery end. Hebrews 6 and 10. God wants us loving, awe inspired, worshiping with the whole heart in Spirit and in Truth, full of genuineness, intimate, enjoying Him, enjoying us. The fire of Hell may bring out the best in hearts set on uncleanness. God acts to bring out the best in all of us, He has a plan, and as it is written in Isaiah, He sends forth His word and it does not return void.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Your poll seems to me to reflect a misunderstanding of universalism. From my reading, the most common version of the doctrine is not that the condemned ever "pay their fine." The notion is that God's very nature is love and that He thus will wait with infinite patience, for eons if necessary, until all eventually repent and turn to Him for salvation. The notion is one of repenting and turning to God, not eventually paying enough.

I have the idea that we all owe each other a debt, we owe God a great deal, another owes a little by comparison. God forgives and expects that from us. He also bought us from debt at great cost. We must forgive in turn or be put into prison, where we repay our fine. Strange idea that prison does that. We owe love. God actually gives love to us. We can want the glory and not the character.

If someone in prison turns, Jesus forgives them, He wants them free. Where and in what kind of place might they wait eons to change their minds or make the petition that is the key to salvation?

 

[Der Alte]

God's justice is restorative not punitive. But that may not be an absolute. The sin of the angels who fell, may have been an eternal sin, until there was a sacrifice or some unknown measure taken. Or they could have been required to work to repay. But they either refused to work and maintained their malice, or could not alter the state of the spirits by the nature of sin itself. Irreversible? I assume that God does not harden their hearts and they refuse to soften or what is needed to soften them costs more than they would return and they like the snarling thief on the cross beside Jesus, would only mock grace. Not receive humbly, as the good thief.
Scripture says no place was found for them, after the fall or at some point they left the fires and took places in Heaven using the stolen authority of Adam and accused us from there. And they will or have recently or centuries ago, lost their places.
The fire, brings out the best in Satan and the other Satans, it never made them repent. It may make them fear God practically.
God wants to use them as a footstool, He still has them in mind. He still uses Satan in Job. Imagine how good it would be if there was no fall.
So the fire may not only be punitive. The fire may be restorative, at least for young souls, who as of yet have a choice. And a sacrifice they can turn to humbly with the whole heart. But for those who commit the eternal sin, it is the fiery end. Hebrews 6 and 10. God wants us loving, awe inspired, worshiping with the whole heart in Spirit and in Truth, full of genuineness, intimate, enjoying Him, enjoying us. The fire of Hell may bring out the best in hearts set on uncleanness. God acts to bring out the best in all of us, He has a plan, and as it is written in Isaiah, He sends forth His word and it does not return void.

This all sounds very fine but I do not see any scripture at all supporting it.

Jeremiah 13:11-14
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many [NOT a few] will say to me in that day, [Judgement day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Romans 1:24
(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:26
(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:28
(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;​

 

[Der Alte]

Bump

 

[ozso]

Bump

The universalists have left the building.

 

[Der Alte]

The universalists have left the building.

Just as well. Alas like Arnold they will be back.

 

[ozso]

Just as well. Alas like Arnold they will be back.

I seriously doubt that after the way they were treated.

 

[Der Alte]

I seriously doubt that after the way they were treated.

Doubt it. I have been active at this forum since Clinton was president they always come back.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I seriously doubt that after the way they were treated.

How were they treated?

 

[Der Alte]

How were they treated?

Speaking only for myself, their errors in interpretation and exegesis were pointed out using credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical etc. evidence. I have frequently asked for scripture where the Father or Jesus, themselves have unequivocally stated that all mankind will be saved. So far only crickets.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

The way the Christian version of universal reconciliation / redemption works is the wicked are purged of their sin in the lake of fire. So the idea is that it's a healing process, rather than punitive. 1

The last selection: Their bodies and souls cease to exist, burned up in the fire. They'll be forgotten forever. Is not within the doctrine of universal salvation, but is rather the separate doctrine of annihilation. 2

1 Ah but which wicked? Some catholics (I think they were probably catholics at the time) used to be warned not to teach that it's OK to aim for purgatory (as well as not to sell it). Who knows what irresponsibility towards others will have lain on that path meanwhile, especially from teachers? Will they feel what they have landed others in through less fault of the latter by their not teaching whole teachings?

2 Some evangelicals have taught this. The fact is, eternity and time are meant to be subjective (as well as everything else about them). There is considerable overlap with 1 here.

For some, their worm will not die. Whatever "will not" means. And what will be their attitude?

The problem with 1 as stipulation is not only "universalism".