Universal Resurrection

[BABerean2]

For example, in Daniel 9:27 the 70th week is summed up in one verse. But in Revelation the 70th week is expanded to include 9 chapters: 8 - 16.

The Messiah is cut off "after" the 69 weeks in Daniel 9:26, which would have to be during the 70th week.

Based on Hebrews 9:15, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Messiah's death in verse 26 cannot be separated from the New Covenant fulfilled by His blood.

Are we supposed to believe the angel Gabriel appeared to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant?

Or, is the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28?

The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

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Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

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Read the recent book "The 70th Week of Daniel 9 DECODED" by David Wilcoxson, to see what the Pilgrims understood about Daniel chapter 9.

The book reveals that any timeline based on a future 70th week of Daniel cannot be correct.

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In Romans 1:16 the Apostle Paul said the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews. When was that time period, and how long did it last?

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[jeffweedaman]

When there is an apparent disagreement in scripture, as we see in John 5 versus Rev. 20, one must be very careful to form a doctrine. Many things must be considered.
For example, when Jesus said, "on the last day" perhaps he was referring to the Day of the Lord, and not a specific 24 hour day.

Next, there are verses I will call "general" that sums up events in one simple statement. Then there are other passages that cover the same events in great detail. Can one be wrong and the other right? No, both are the word of God and both are right. For example, in Daniel 9:27 the 70th week is summed up in one verse. But in Revelation the 70th week is expanded to include 9 chapters: 8 - 16.

Would it be wiser to form doctrine from the one single verse - or form doctrine from the 9 chapters covering the same events? Then there is the saying, the New Testament is the Old Testament explained. When both the Old and the New speak of a specific event, which would wisdom decree we form doctrine from: the Old or the New? A wise Bible College professor taught us that doctrine should first be formed from the most complete treatise on a subject, then missing pieces filled in from other scriptures. He also taught us to form doctrine from the New Testament, since it explains the Old.

I said all that to say this: Revelation is VERY clear: there will be a thousand year reign of Christ on earth before the final resurrection. Some people solve this by saying the 1000 years are symbolic!

John shows us the just raptured church already in heaven before the 70th week starts - as the great crowd, too large to number in chapter 7. This shows us that the dead in Christ resurrection comes before the resurrection of the beheaded shown in chapter 20. Many people would like, in their imagination, either move that great crowd written in chapter 7 to Rev. 20, or insist that John was not chronological.

In Summary, John 5 can be taken in different ways, but there is simply no other way to read Rev. 20.

Strongly disagree with your comments regarding the 70th week.
It is impossible for a raptured Church to be in heaven before the Atonement of the 70th week begins. Jesus has already fulfilled the atonement of the 70th week.

Rev 7
13 Then one of the elders responded, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 They will no longer hunger nor thirst, nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any scorching heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”


Rev 21
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give water to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life, without cost. 7 The one who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.


The one sitting on the throne is Jesus in chap 7 and 21.
We come out of GT to stand before this throne at his coming then.
The throne in view in rev 21 is clearly the GWT.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Well conflating Revelation 20 with the present clearly contradicts all Scripture dealing with the return of Christ. Now it may have similar words as some obscure out of context passages, but we are talking about a particular topic, not searching all the same words found in the Bible and taking them out of context.

The only difference between you and Keras is the word 1000. Both sides do not accept any physical resurrection until the GWT event. You have to admit that your eschatology is also based on Revelation 20 as well.

No, I do not have to admit that since it is clearly not true. My eschatology is based on more clear passages of scripture than Revelation 20. Such as John 5:28-29, which clearly indicates that there is one event (hour/time) coming when all of the dead will be raised rather than two (or more) future events where the dead will be raised as premils believe.

And then there is Matthew 25:31-46 which portrays all people being judged at the same time instead of people being judged at two entirely different times (separated by 1000+ years).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The bible teaches us in various passages that every human who has every lived and died will one day be resurrected. But the bible also teaches it will not all happen at the same moment in time. The first resurrection (in time, not in title) will be the dead in Christ before the 70th week. Then at the end of the 70th week will be another resurrection for the Old Testament saints and those who were beheaded during the week. Finally, a thousand years later, hell will give up her dead and the damned will be judged.

Can you tell me why Paul didn't explain the order of resurrections the way you do? Don't you think that your belief about the order of resurrections should agree with what Paul wrote?

1 Corinthians 15:22 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Please tell me how what you said above fits with what Paul taught about this topic. He said the order is Christ first and then those who belong to Him when He comes. Much more simple than what you said which does not line up with what Paul said.

Also, what about believers who die during the thousand years? When would they be resurrected according to your premil view? You didn't mention them.

 

[ewq1938]

He said the order is Christ first and then those who belong to Him when He comes.

Which means the dead in Christ rise before any of the unsaved dead do which supports Premill. If Amill was correct, the verse would be saying, "Christ first and then ALL THE DEAD when He comes." but no, the teaching is clear that the saved and unsaved do NOT rise at the same time. No surprise there since other passages including Revelation 20 make that also clear.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Which means the dead in Christ rise before any of the unsaved dead do which supports Premill. If Amill was correct, the verse would be saying, "Christ first and then ALL THE DEAD when He comes." but no, the teaching is clear that the saved and unsaved do NOT rise at the same time. No surprise there since other passages including Revelation 20 make that also clear.

Premils butcher Rev 20. They have no other Scripture to support their interpretation of Rev 20. It should be rejected on that basis alone. It is a non-corrobarative theory. In their teaching, they are forced to reject the first resurrection of Christ.

 

[iamlamad]

The Messiah is cut off "after" the 69 weeks in Daniel 9:26, which would have to be during the 70th week.
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That is human reasoning and does not fit what Daniel wrote. Daniel finished the 69 weeks, then gave events that happened after the 69 weeks, but BEFORE the 70th week. For example, the 70 AD event. In other words, Daniel himself wrote in a GAP between the 69 weeks and the 70th week.

 

[iamlamad]

Premils butcher Rev 20. They have no other Scripture to support their interpretation of Rev 20. It should be rejected on that basis alone. It is a non-corrobarative theory. In their teaching, they are forced to reject the first resurrection of Christ.

Rev. 20 should be enough. The same man that wrote John 3:16 wrote Rev. 20. It is God's word just as much as John 3:16.

The truth is, premils take Rev. 20 the same way they take all scripture: exactly as written.

 

[iamlamad]

Can you tell me why Paul didn't explain the order of resurrections the way you do? Don't you think that your belief about the order of resurrections should agree with what Paul wrote?

1 Corinthians 15:22 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Please tell me how what you said above fits with what Paul taught about this topic. He said the order is Christ first and then those who belong to Him when He comes. Much more simple than what you said which does not line up with what Paul said.

Also, what about believers who die during the thousand years? When would they be resurrected according to your premil view? You didn't mention them.

Can you tell me why Paul didn't explain the order of resurrections the way you do?
Sorry, but Paul agrees with John and John with Paul. There is no disagreement in scripture. However, some people imagine a disagreement.

I don't see your problem: OF COURSE it is the dead in Christ that rise first: that is what Paul wrote. But Paul did not consider those that rose when Christ arose, for it was only the elders. Paul was zeroing in on the end of the church age. When Christ comes, as shown in 1 Thes. 4, the dead in Christ rise first, but perhaps miliseconds later those who are alive in Christ are caught up, and together they are caught up to Jesus who will be hidden in a cloud.

Christ was first, as in #1; then the elders that Christ rose when He rose - then at the end of the church age, the dead in Christ first before those who are alive. Then some unknown time after, around the middle of the 70th week, the 144,000 will be caught up, for when John saw them in chapter 14, they were in heaven. After that, another group of dead will be resurrected: the Old Testament saints along with the Two Witnesses and the beheaded from the days of GT.

Perhaps the only real difference is the way we write. Remember, Paul wrote that resurrections have TURNS. When the dead in Christ rise, it is not the Old Testament saint's turn. Their "turn" will come later.

If you are still not satisfied, perhaps you can be more specific.

I am not convinced anyone will die during the millennial reign. Do people die in heaven? The Millennial reign is like heaven on earth. The curse will be lifted and death is a part of the curse.

Finally, Paul did not talk about the resurrection of the damned. Only John did.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Rev. 20 should be enough. The same man that wrote John 3:16 wrote Rev. 20. It is God's word just as much as John 3:16.

The truth is, premils take Rev. 20 the same way they take all scripture: exactly as written.

No they do not. They Interpret the rest of Scripture by their faulty opinion of Revelation 20, whereas Amillennialists interpret Revelation 20 by what the rest of Scripture teaches.

Multiple Scripture teaches that the second coming is final and climactic - thus forbidding Premil.

 

[iamlamad]

No they do not. They Interpret the rest of Scripture by their faulty opinion Revelation 20, whereas Amillennialists interpret Revelation 20 by what the rest of Scripture teaches.

Multiple Scripture teaches the second coming is final and climactic - thus forbidding Premil.

The truth is, amillennialists CHANGE Revelation 20 by what they imagine the rest of scripture says on the subject.

 

[DavidPT]

No they do not. They Interpret the rest of Scripture by their faulty opinion Revelation 20, whereas Amillennialists interpret Revelation 20 by what the rest of Scripture teaches.

If Amils actually did that, why are Amils then unable to make sense out of the following for some of the rest of us, for example?

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


It makes zero sense, and Amils have to know it, if this is supposed to be involving just 24 hours or less rather than an era of time once the above verse begins to be fulfilled.

The way Amils apparently interpret this is like such. The regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, happens and ends within the same 24 hour period that the 2nd coming happens during. We go straight from that straight to this---1 Corinthians 15:24 which then results in 1 Corinthians 15:28, all of this within the same 24 hour day the 2nd coming occurs.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Obviously, once this verse is fulfilled Matthew 19:28 would then be in the past for forever at that point. Amils, per their overall Amil position, only have Matthew 19:28 involving 24 hours or less, which seems silly to some of the rest of us.

 

[BABerean2]

That is human reasoning and does not fit what Daniel wrote. Daniel finished the 69 weeks, then gave events that happened after the 69 weeks, but BEFORE the 70th week. For example, the 70 AD event. In other words, Daniel himself wrote in a GAP between the 69 weeks and the 70th week.

What does the Word of God actually say?

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


Why did the Pilgrims disagree with your interpretation over 400 years ago?

Is it because the Messiah's death cannot be separated from the New Covenant fulfilled by His blood in Hebrews 12:22-24?

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[BABerean2]

If Amils actually did that, why are Amils then unable to make sense out of the following for some of the rest of us, for example?

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

It makes sense in the passages below.


Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


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[DavidPT]

It makes sense in the passages below.


Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


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From Matthew 19:28----ye which have followed me---also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Now show how that part fits with any of the passages you submitted.

Take 2 Timothy 4:1 that you submitted, for instance. That verse does not say--ye which have followed Christ, along with the Lord Jesus Christ, shall together judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

 

[jeffweedaman]

From Matthew 19:28----ye which have followed me---also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Now show how that part fits with any of the passages you submitted.

Take 2 Timothy 4:1 that you submitted, for instance. That verse does not say--ye which have followed Christ, along with the Lord Jesus Christ, shall together judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Doesnt suggest that at the GWT either. All judgment is given to the Son who will condemn the ungodly or reward his own.

Those disciples of his have been sitting on 12 thrones since the first century , leading the way in bringing Israel to worship God the right way throughout the centuries that followed . Their testimony will ultimately judge all Israeli's who rejected the Gospel of Gods salvation on judgment day.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Jn 12
48 The one who rejects Me and does not accept My teachings has one who judges him: the word which I spoke. That will judge him on the last day. 49 For I did not speak on My own, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

 

[DavidPT]

Those disciples of his have been sitting on 12 thrones since the first century , leading the way in bringing Israel to worship God the right way throughout the centuries that followed .

Let's look at the text again, then I have some questions for you based on what you answered in this post compared to what the texts actually tell us. I can't speak for others, but as for me, I'm going to go with the texts every single time, as opposed to someone proposing things that are not even agreeing with the texts.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

When does the text indicate His followers initially begin judging the twelve tribes of Israel?

Is it not in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory?

Do you then think He is already sitting on His throne of His glory and has been for the past 2000 years? Do you think the following is not future still, but was already fulfilled 2000 years ago----When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory(Matthew 25:31)?


Doesn't Matthew 25:31 make it crystal clear as to when He initially sits upon the throne of His glory? How can sitting on His throne of glory in Matthew 19:28 be meaning a time prior to when He is seen initially doing it in Matthew 25:31? How can it be that Matthew 19:28 does not involve the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with Him, though Matthew 25:31 does?

 

[jeffweedaman]

Do you then think He is already sitting on His throne of His glory and has been for the past 2000 years? Do you think the following is not future still, but was already fulfilled 2000 years ago----When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory(Matthew 25:31)?

No I do not think he is sitting on the throne of his Glory.
My point is that it was the word he has already spoken that will judge them the last day.
We are testament to that as we share his glory because we believed the word he already spoke. So in that sense we judge along with him.

 

[BABerean2]

Now show how that part fits with any of the passages you submitted.

Are you claiming Christ and the Apostles will not be present along with the men of Ninevah, and the queen of the south, when the judgment found below takes place?

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


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