Universal Resurrection

[ewq1938]

To add to all of that, since this discussion involves both John 5:28-29 and Revelation 20, maybe the following analogy I came up will work, or maybe not.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


For the hour is coming, in the which all that are in highschool, shall graduate high school.

No one would argue that every single person in highschool, that they all graduate the same hour, or even the same day, or even the same year. Obviously, freshmen don't graduate when seniors do, as an example. What matters in John 5:28-29 is not that they all have to be raised the same hour, or even the same day, what matters is, that they are raised, period. As long as they are raised, regardless what hour that might involve, even if that hour is over a thousand years after they that have done good are raised, the hour obviously still comes for them also, when they too shall hear His voice and rise from the dead.

Great point. May I borrow from that?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

t's the same thing as I mentioned about with the baseball teams.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

First of all "hour" can be any amount of time since it can be literal or figurative:

G5610
ὥρα
hōra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an “hour” (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.
Total KJV occurrences: 108

It's been translated as hour, day and even season. A thousand years and longer can also be a "hora".

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So, in this unknown amount of time there will be two resurrections. First (called the first resurrection) the dead in Christ will be resurrected. Then much later in this same "hora", at it's end will the second or last resurrection take place and that's "the rest of the dead" who did not rise with the first group.[/quote]I don't find it to be reasonable at all to think that the hour (hora) Jesus was referring to that is coming could equate to a thousand years (plus however long Satan's little season is). That would mean He was saying this:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a thousand year period of time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

I don't find this passage to make any sense when worded this way, but this is how you understand it. I couldn't disagree more.

It's pretty simple really. All this takes place after the first judgment and resurrection. This is when the unsaved will be judged and punished. The saved are told they will inherit the kingdom which is a reference to the kingdom of the NHNE and then God addresses the unsaved for their punishment. Resurrections are not mentioned in this passage because in this timeframe, all the resurrections have already taken place.

The timing of Matthew 25:31-46 is very clear and is established in the first verse of that passage.

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.

So, it is when He comes in His glory with His angels that the saved will inherit the kingdom of the NHNE and the unsaved will be cast into everlasting fire (Matt 25:41), which is a clear parallel to Revelation 20:15. This means that His coming is after the thousand years since we all agree that we will inherit the NHNE after the thousand years and the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire after the thousand year. Once again, in my opinion, a premil has failed to explain how Matthew 25:31-46 can be reconciled with the premil view.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

To add to all of that, since this discussion involves both John 5:28-29 and Revelation 20, maybe the following analogy I came up will work, or maybe not.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


For the hour is coming, in the which all that are in highschool, shall graduate high school.

No one would argue that every single person in highschool, that they all graduate the same hour, or even the same day, or even the same year. Obviously, freshmen don't graduate when seniors do, as an example. What matters in John 5:28-29 is not that they all have to be raised the same hour, or even the same day, what matters is, that they are raised, period. As long as they are raised, regardless what hour that might involve, even if that hour is over a thousand years after they that have done good are raised, the hour obviously still comes for them also, when they too shall hear His voice and rise from the dead.

Who would even say something like that? I don't find your comparison to be reasonable since it's completely silly to think that anyone would even say that the hour is coming when all that are in high school will graduate high school. That's not even a true statement since obviously some will drop out and not graduate. Also, this analogy isn't a case of one group graduating at one time followed by another group graduating a long time after. So, nice try, but I don't find your argument here to be convincing at all.

it's clear that Jesus is referring to a singular event that is coming and not referring to a long period of time during which the dead would be resurrected. If the saved will be resurrected at one hour/time and the unsaved will be resurrected at a much later time then I believe Jesus would have said the hours/times are coming when all of the dead would be raised. But, He only said one hour/time is coming when that will happen.

And then there's the fact that passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 portrays both the saved and the lost being judged on the same 24 hour day. It only follows that all of the saved dead and unsaved dead would be resurrected on the same day in order for that to be the case.

 

[DavidPT]

Great point. May I borrow from that?

Of course you can borrow from that.

 

[ewq1938]

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a thousand year period of time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

I don't find this passage to make any sense when worded this way, but this is how you understand it. I couldn't disagree more.

That's because you worded it incorrectly:

“Do not be amazed at this, for a period of time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Since Amill's famously interpret the thousand years to be far longer than a thousand years then understanding "hora" here in the figurative sense makes sense. It's a period of time not specified. Since there is a resurrection of some people before the thousand years and some people resurrected AFTER the thousand years ("the rest of the dead lived not" group) then we know there is that LONG period of time inbetween. The other passages do not mention how much time there is inbetween the two resurrections and anyone who claims it is the same literal hour is going against the plain wording in Revelation 20. The thousand years cannot represent a literal hour or day. The word year means a year and this is plural so there's multiple years between the first people resurrected and the last people resurrected.

 

[ewq1938]

Of course you can borrow from that.

I changed it slightly to address a complaint about it:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,



There will come a time/hour that all baseball teams will play against another team but that doesn't mean all on the same day. A time will come for all the dead to be raised. First, the dead in Christ rise, then after a thousand years "the rest of the dead" will rise. That's what we find when looking at all of the related passages. Leaving the most important passage out of this is clear error.

Another analogy:

"For the hour is coming, in which all who start and complete highschool, shall graduate."

No one would argue that every single person who completes highschool will all graduate the same hour, or same day, or even the same year. Obviously, freshmen don't graduate when seniors do, as an example.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You are wrong. You are taking the context from one passage and inserting it in another passage. That is not rightly dividing the word and is a clear sign of the many errors of Amillennialism.

Don't claim something like this without proving it. You can say I'm wrong all you want, but show me why you think this is the case using scripture.

They all get some type of vengeance but not all are killed. That is explained in Revelation 19 where he kills some, but others are spared to be ruled over and the verb is in the future tense proving a future rule over mortals past the second coming slaughtering.

Please tell me the difference between those whose lives He would spare and those He wouldn't?

First of all, calling someone ignorant is offensive. Second, that isn't true. Most do not understand the two resurrections as you do.

Why are you offended by that? I wasn't intended to be offensive. It is true that most amils see it as I do and I don't know why you wouldn't know that.

It would be ridiculous to think that Christ would send fire down upon the earth before He has caught up His own to Himself first. I don't know of any amils who believe that. And the resurrection of the unsaved doesn't happen until He first destroys His enemies who are alive when He returns. So, that clearly shows some time between the resurrection of the saved and the unsaved even if it's very little time. Since it's most likely very little time in between, that's why amils tend to say the saved and lost are resurrected at the same time (even if it isn't the same exact moment). Just ask any amil about this and you will see that a vast majority agree with me on this.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That's because you worded it incorrectly:

“Do not be amazed at this, for a period of time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

No, I worded it according to your understanding of it. I think you know that it doesn't make sense with the way I had it and that's why you're trying to change it now. Your "period of time" is a thousand plus years. So, why not word it that way and see if it makes sense? To me, it doesn't at all.

 

[ewq1938]

Don't claim something like this without proving it. You can say I'm wrong all you want, but show me why you think this is the case using scripture.

I already did that. Christ's resurrection is not the subject of Revelation 20. Revelation 20 is speaking about two groups of the dead resurrecting.

Please tell me the difference between those whose lives He would spare and those He wouldn't?

He kills the leaders and military and spares the civilians. This is what is meant by breaks the vessels to pieces. This concept is also found elsewhere:

Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


Barnes:

As the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers - The ironic here is that of the vessel of a potter - a fragile vessel of clay - struck with a rod of iron and broken into fragments. That is, as applied to the nations, there would be no power to oppose His rule; the enemies of his government would be destroyed. Instead of remaining firm and compacted together, they would be broken like the clay vessel of a potter when struck with a rod of iron.

The notion of breaking a nation or kingdom up so it is powerless is nothing new in scripture:

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.


The kingdom of God which Christ rules will break up the existing kingdoms of the nations leaving the people powerless to rebel. This is when the reign of the rod of iron over these nations takes place for a thousand years.

There is another use of a vessel being destroyed and it is not about killing people but breaking up an organization of people who rebel against God:

Isa 30:12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
Isa 30:13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
Isa 30:14 And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.

The metaphor of a vessel being broken is never about individuals being killed. God didn't kill every Jew. But their rebellion and sin against him caused the demise of their chosen status, even the covenant between them and God. Fast forward to the Millennium and again those who rebel against Christ shall have their wicked organizations broken up, leaving them powerless and unable to organize against Christ during this period of TIME of the reign/rule with a rod of iron. They live to be reigned over. When God allows satan to deceive them, then a brief and failed rebellion occurs and they are killed and judged and are no more forever.

Barnes:

As the breaking of the potter’s vessel - That is, as an earthen, fragile vessel, which is easily dashed to pieces. The image here is all drawn from the bursting forth, or the complete ruin of the swelling wall; but the sense is, that the Jewish republic would be entirely broken, scattered, demolished.

Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Barnes:

Psalms 2:9

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron - That is, evidently, thine enemies, for it cannot be supposed to be meant that he would sway such a scepter over his own people. The idea is that he would crush and subdue all his foes. He would have absolute power, and the grant which had been made to him would be accompanied with authority sufficient to hold it. That dominion which was to be conceded to him would be not only one of protection to his friends, but also of punishment on his enemies; and the statement here is made prominent because the former part of the psalm had respect to rebels, and the Messiah is here represented as being invested with power sufficient to punish and restrain them. The Vulgate renders this “thou shalt rule;” the Septuagint, “thou shalt feed - p??µa?e??? poimaneis; that is, thou shalt feed them as a shepherd does his flock; thou shalt exercise over them the care and protection of a shepherd.

It would be ridiculous to think that Christ would send fire down upon the earth before He has caught up His own to Himself first.

Christ never once uses fire as a weapon to kill people.

I don't know of any amils who believe that. And the resurrection of the unsaved doesn't happen until He first destroys His enemies who are alive when He returns. So, that clearly shows some time between the resurrection of the saved and the unsaved even if it's very little time.

The more time that is understood that takes place inbetween is progression.

Since it's most likely very little time in between, that's why amils tend to say the saved and lost are resurrected at the same time (even if it isn't the same exact moment).

It's bad practice to even use "at the same time" if what is meant is actually "almost the same time".

 

[ewq1938]

No, I worded it according to your understanding of it. I think you know that it doesn't make sense with the way I had it and that's why you're trying to change it now. Your "period of time" is a thousand plus years. So, why not word it that way and see if it makes sense? To me, it doesn't at all.

Choosing the right words is a problem in this thread already. Always be as accurate as possible.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

He kills the leaders and military and spares the civilians.

I don't think you're reading the passage carefully enough.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Do you see how John expands the scope of destruction beyond just the leaders and rulers to include "all people, free and slave, great and small"? You can't just ignore that.

Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

The context of this being referenced in Revelation 19 is in relation to utter destruction. That's why it is referenced alongside references to Christ striking them down and treading the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God. The context in Revelation 19 in terms of what Christ will do to His enemies is clearly that He will destroy them and not rule over them.

Christ never once uses fire as a weapon to kill people.

He most certainly will. The following passage makes that very clear:

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. 8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

How can anyone read this passage and still try to say that Christ won't use fire to kill His enemies? It couldn't be more clear that He will.

It's bad practice to even use "at the same time" if what is meant is actually "almost the same time".

I agree and I've personally tried to get away from doing that while encouraging other amils to do the same.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Choosing the right words is a problem in this thread already. Always be as accurate as possible.

I was. The hour/time that is coming which you believe He is referring to in John 5:28-29 covers a thousand plus years, so that's why I replaced "the hour is coming" with "a thousand year period of time is coming" to show how you understand it.

 

[DavidPT]

No, I worded it according to your understanding of it. I think you know that it doesn't make sense with the way I had it and that's why you're trying to change it now. Your "period of time" is a thousand plus years. So, why not word it that way and see if it makes sense? To me, it doesn't at all.

No wonder it made no sense to you. There is no reason to make the hour is coming to be meaning a thousand years.

The way I might word it in order to have it agree with Revelation 20, might be like such.


Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, at the beginning of the thousand years(This is the first resurrection, Revelation 20:5) ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, after the thousand years have finished(the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished, Revelation 20:5).

 

[ewq1938]

I don't think you're reading the passage carefully enough.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

The context is about the people of that army, it's leaders etc. It is not speaking of all around the planet.

Mortals do survive the second coming according to scripture


The arrival of Christ for the second time accomplishes many things including the vials of wrath and destroying the army of the beast at Armageddon as well as resulting in the beast and false prophet being cast into the LOF. There is one more thing mentioned during the second coming that many do not notice which is the future rule over the nations which proves there are unsaved mortals that are set aside for being ruled over by the rod of iron:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth (PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming. The treading and smiting are happening at Armageddon but not the ruling which proves mortals will be alive after Armageddon is over. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.


A second witness to this:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the mortal unsaved nations after Christ has returned not before it.

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.

It is impossible to understand what happens at the second coming and what happens AFTER the second coming properly without understanding the verb tenses involved.

Since scripture does not contradict itself, there are no scriptures which state all mortals are slain at the second coming leaving none to be ruled over.

How can anyone read this passage and still try to say that Christ won't use fire to kill His enemies? It couldn't be more clear that He will.

That fire is speaking of destroying the old Earth and heavens. None of his enemies are still alive at that time since that happens after the GWTJ is over.

 

[ewq1938]

I was. The hour/time that is coming which you believe He is referring to in John 5:28-29 covers a thousand plus years, so that's why I replaced "the hour is coming" with "a thousand year period of time is coming" to show how you understand it.

I don't believe the hour is only the thousand years but the time of the first group of the dead to be resurrected through the thousand years and past the little season right up to the resurrection of "the rest of the dead".....that's the hour or HORA mentioned in that verse. The best wording there would be as I already made clear, "a period of time".

 

[DavidPT]

Who would even say something like that? I don't find your comparison to be reasonable since it's completely silly to think that anyone would even say that the hour is coming when all that are in high school will graduate high school. That's not even a true statement since obviously some will drop out and not graduate. Also, this analogy isn't a case of one group graduating at one time followed by another group graduating a long time after. So, nice try, but I don't find your argument here to be convincing at all.

it's clear that Jesus is referring to a singular event that is coming and not referring to a long period of time during which the dead would be resurrected. If the saved will be resurrected at one hour/time and the unsaved will be resurrected at a much later time then I believe Jesus would have said the hours/times are coming when all of the dead would be raised. But, He only said one hour/time is coming when that will happen.

And then there's the fact that passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 portrays both the saved and the lost being judged on the same 24 hour day. It only follows that all of the saved dead and unsaved dead would be resurrected on the same day in order for that to be the case.

Unfortunately, there are usually holes in analogies. I already know that some can drop out, some can even die before they graduate. But my point was that an hour can come for everyone in high school, where they graduate eventually, and that no one would take it to mean they graduate the same hour, the same day, or even the same year. I'm just trying to illustrate that an hour can come for a specific kind of event, but that it doesn't have to mean every single time, that the same hour is meant, or even the same day.

 

[BABerean2]

Mortals do survive the second coming according to scripture

Do you find them surviving the "flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and how many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?


.

 

[DavidPT]

Do you find them surviving the "flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and how many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?


.

Do you believe there will be literal animals on the new earth? If no, are there any Amils that do believe that? The reason I ask, if the planet is literally ablaze like Amils insist, obviously no animals could survive that. But if that same Amil believes there will be literal animals on the new earth, how does that Amil propose they get there? If animals were important to God in the beginning of creation, why would they not also be important to Him on a new earth?

 

[ewq1938]

Do you find them surviving the "flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10,

Yes because that describes the quickness of his return not it being used as a weapon. It clearly says "in flaming fire" which is in regard to himself.

and how many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

I've already addressed that passage.


.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Do you believe there will be literal animals on the new earth? If no, are there any Amils that do believe that?

I am hoping there will be. I want my Dog and budgies back.



[ Quote David PT ]
The reason I ask, if the planet is literally ablaze like Amils insist, obviously no animals could survive that. But if that same Amil believes there will be literal animals on the new earth, how does that Amil propose they get there? ]

The same way we do. Its us that caused a problem for the animals. If we can make it then so can they.
I am not only hoping for my restoration but the restoration of ALL things. There is hope then.


[ qu David PT ]
If animals were important to God in the beginning of creation, why would they not also be important to Him on a new earth? ]

Great question.