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Universal Reconciliation
- Thread starter John Hyperspace
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I can't tell if you're taking the story literally or not. At any rate, like you said, all we know is what is said (and our understanding of what is said), and one thing is certainly not said, and that is, that the rich man is there forever, no chance of ever coming out of his "torment" and his "thirst": though I do note the end of the Revelation:
Re 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
So your reply doesn't overturn the universal reconciliation passages in the OP (or, anywhere else in scripture) and doesn't support "endless suffering"
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How could I be said to not be giving support from Scripture and then needing to be asked about the Sermon on the mount? Those statements do not rationally go together. Just as irrational as the idea of Universalism aligns with a "narrow way" or a "not inherit" happiness.
But since it was asked, Unilateralism is directly opposed to not being able to "inherit" a "life" that we were created to live eternally would not leave those NOT inheriting in suffering and in agreement with what God Himself endorses to what was and had been the prevailing Jewish thought of the next life in that day, and would leave someone not "inheriting" that life in eternal suffering (no purpose for existing as CS Lewis put it is a terrible thing. A "terrible thing" and the opposite of the life of eternal happiness being inherited could only at best be a miserable state/condition. That sort of suffering can be said rationally true even without imaging an external eternal source (to the individual) of their suffering. Not inheriting does not preclude suffering, but it is also illogical to suggest the lack of it entails happiness, so am unclear why we would need to imagine it is not suffering. Beside the tradition Jesus obviously endorsed by offering story about it rather depicts suffering.
Am unclear how one could take "not inheriting" and stretch that to "maybe He meant a abode/Kingdom of eternal happiness could or would be inherited later". That stretch of His Words would avoid saying the lack of inheritance was meant as a temporary condition/abode for "bad people", but that stretch is not evident (unsupported) in the rest of the picture painted by the Bible of the human condition.
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Nothing in any of those rebutting universal reconciliation passages (are you simply ignoring all of the passages in the OP?), and nothing supporting eternal suffering. Saying "X will not inherit" is in no one precluding that X becomes Y, and subsequently inherits the kingdom. You, yourself, and a great many Christians were all "sinners" who would not inherit the kingdom. But then, you changed, didn't you? You went from X (not inheriting) to Y (inheriting). Isn't it odd that you believe all Christians went from "not inheriting" to "inheriting" but for some reason can't wrap your mind around the basic fact of your own change?
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Not interested in talk for talk's sake. Again, all you're showing is that you have zero scripture to rebut the OP scripture, and one scripture to support your "endless suffering" doctrine. Also, given that one scripture in the Revelation, you're still needing to harmonize it with all the verses from the OP. How to do that? Ignore them? Change them?
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What of it? What is going on here is that you have assumptions in your mind which are the result of your teaching (or, what you have been taught to believe and read and understand) and expect me to have the same biased understanding; I do not.
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Apparently not interested in Jesus saying the wicked shall not inherit His Kingdom either and we (that would be everyone else "talking" in this thread) get why the only comment finally made to that point is the Sermon itself does not say "eternal suffering". Since the Kingdom being inherited is always counter presented as inheriting eternal happiness verses eternal suffering, perhaps God knows that rational people would not need to have that pointed out every time the possible inheritance is presented. That one needing to see God has giving Mercy where He says there will be none in order to view God as Honest and Love, I can understand why even Jesus "talking" about that suffering would need to be ignored.
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Because "the wicked will not inherit" does not in any way shape or form preclude the wicked being made righteous: if I say to you "a man without a tie will not enter my club" that does not mean if you have no tie, you will never enter no matter what. It means as long as you don't have a tie: if you go home and change into a tie, guess what? NOW you can come in. Get it? You're simply assuming so much into what is being said that you end up not only blatantly ingoring the passages in the OP in order to cling to your traditional (mis)understanding, you're creating doctrines out of thin air, based on nothing: and potentially the greatest form of blasphemy imaginable. And not for one second do you or others stop and think about what you're doing and teaching.
And still you go on about "eternal suffering" as though you've produced more than a single verse to support the teaching, while at the same time completely ignoring every universal reconciliation passage in scripture.
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17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
End of book.
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The opposite of inheriting the Kingdom does not sound like eternal happiness or an end to it.
Matt 25:41 "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels "
Matt 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
Rev. 20:10 "They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever "
Matt 13:49-50 "So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."
Rev 21:8 "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."
Rom 2:5-8 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
A single judgement of the all the resurrected dead (body and soul) to eternal life vs judgement/wrath and fury
John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
Acts 24:14-15 But this I admit to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the law or written in the prophets, having a hope in God which these themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.
Rom 2:5-8 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
Matt 25:41 "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels "
Matt 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
Rev. 20:10 "They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever "
Matt 13:49-50 "So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."
Rev 21:8 "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."
Rom 2:5-8 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
A single judgement of the all the resurrected dead (body and soul) to eternal life vs judgement/wrath and fury
John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
Acts 24:14-15 But this I admit to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the law or written in the prophets, having a hope in God which these themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.
Rom 2:5-8 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
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