Universal reconciliation

[brixken7]

Yet four verses after this proof text" (Revelation 21:4) "eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire, the second death. Note this is future from vs. 8, "shall have their part."

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Once again you have brought up Revelation 21:8, which appears -- on the surface -- to be a good argument against universalism. You obviously didn't understand my previous reply regarding this verse which is quite understandable, for I have yet to meet even a believer in universalism that can comprehend it, though it's extremely simple. The answer to this verse and such verses as Revelation 22:15, goes back to God's command to "rightly divide the Word of God" (II Timothy 2:15). As you well know, there are no divisions whatsoever in the original Greek. We have to supply them. Once the true divisions are supplied, and the scales are removed from one's vision, universal salvation is as plain as the nose on your face, salvation not only for mankind, but for the angelic realm as well (yes, even for the evil messengers). You only have to come to see the true ending of the Bible.

If, for example, you were reading the biography of some famous person, where would you be most likely to learn his demise -- except at the end of the book? Similarly, where in the Bible is a person most likely to learn of the culmination of God's handiwork -- except at the end? And the true end of the Word of God is found in Revelation 21:1-5. How do we know these verses represent the end? For 2 major reasons. First of all, verse 6 reads "It is done." One version even reads, "It is finished." In other words, it is essentially saying "THE END." It is the completion of God's plan, the end of His work, and the end of the ages! Secondly, we know this is the end of God's Word because there are no further events taking place! That's it! Consequently, the balance of the Book, beginning with Christ's words "I am Alpha and Omega.." and on to Revelation 22:21 is what could be termed "The Epilogue."

Your verse, Revelation 21:8, is merely a part of that Epilogue.

 

[Der Alte]

I have told you but you will not hear,.....When they face The Holy One and KNOW that all they have done "in His Name" was of their "own works" and not His, then their heart will melt and they will come to KNOW the difference.
They will bow willingly and confess That He is Lord, to The Glory of Father. I can't even imagine the shame and the loss that they will come to experience in that moment, a life time of works but never a Relationship with Him.

Where does any verse say after Jesus tells many "depart from me you workers of in iniquity I never knew you" they will "face The Holy One and KNOW that all they have done 'in His Name' was of their 'own works' and not His, then their heart will melt and they will come to KNOW the difference?" Please show me that verse?

But Praise God there is always Hope.....

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Deliberate twisting of scripture. I have already shown in this thread that this out-of-context proof text is not referring to all mankind!

1Co 3:9-17
(9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.​

Note his passage is addressed to those who are "laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building" not all mankind

10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;​

This is clearly addressed to laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building" vs. 9, only those who are building on the foundation of Jesus Christ. vs. 11. not all mankind. "if any man, laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building, build upon this foundation, Jesus Christ gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;" Vs. 13 is the continuation of the sentence which begins in vs. 12.

(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

Every man, vs. 12, any man, vss 14-15, is not all mankind but, those who are "laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building, build upon this foundation, Jesus Christ" vss. 9, 13. the temple of God, vs. 16. Only this group will be "saved yet so as by fire" not all mankind. Vs. 15 cannot mean that all mnkind is saved, it is not addressed to all mankind, and vs. 17 says that any man who defiles the temple of God will be destroyed not saved.

I know where you're at Der Alter, I was there once too. You're so precise in your keeping of the Letter of The Word, and the tense, and the proper languages, That you miss The Spirit of The Word, your so busy in your own works and your own understanding, it's blocking you from hearing The Spirit teach you the meaning beneath those words.
That's why you are so afraid to even think of the possibility that UR might be true....because of "Your own Works", you can't even imagine that God would have Mercy on someone who has NO works.

Last warning! Confine your responses to what I post not what you think I believe, my spiritual condition, or anything else.

But you know something, ......God's Mercy indures FOREVER! It does'nt stop just because a person dies never having known Him while in a physical body, because it's got nothing to do with the flesh anyhow.

God can and will save to the Uttermost, it is written...His hand is not to short, He will disannul their covenant with Death and their agreement with Hell...Isa. 28

Anybody can prove almost anything by quoting selective verses out-of-context, as you have done with 1 Cor 3:15, 2 Cor 5;19. There are a lot of groups around doing that very thing, SDA, LDS, JW, WWCG, OP, UPCI, INC, UU, etc.

If you would just let yourself see what this is saying and have a willing heart to hear "What the Spirit" is saying, then He would show you the same things He's shown us. It is possible and a probability that He will have all men to be saved and come to the Knowledge of the Truth.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Lets read this out-of-context proof text in its proper context. It does not mean that the whole world is reconciled to God, no matter what.

2Co 5:17-19
(17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
(18) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
(19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
​

Once again not addressed to all of mankind but any man who is in Christ, who is a new creature, vs. 17, those God, who has reconciled to himself by Jesus Christ, vs. 19.

God will destroy all things that oppose Him, so that the man will be saved....why can't you let yourself see this.
Would you rather see God as Vengefull, destroyer, Mercyless, without Compassion, and see His Enemies lifted up Higher than Him? Because that's what your doing ya know. You might as well be saying that God won't win, or He doesn't have the power to overcome all things that keep us from following Him or that man's will is stronger than God's.....

Rubbish twisting out-of-context scriptures to prop up false teachings. Read Jeremiah 13. I wonder why Jesus never said that all mankind will be saved, no matter what?

 

[Rajni]

Assume that the Bible contradicts itself. So anything you don't like just toss it out. Pick and choose verses which support your fallible, finite human assumptions/presupposition what "a truly Divine being" should be like.

Therein lies the irony; that's precisely what I see the ETers
doing to support their positions.



-

 

[Der Alte]

Once again you have brought up Revelation 21:8, which appears -- on the surface -- to be a good argument against universalism. You obviously didn't understand my previous reply regarding this verse which is quite understandable, for I have yet to meet even a believer in universalism that can comprehend it, though it's extremely simple. The answer to this verse and such verses as Revelation 22:15, goes back to God's command to "rightly divide the Word of God" (II Timothy 2:15). As you well know, there are no divisions whatsoever in the original Greek. We have to supply them. Once the true divisions are supplied, and the scales are removed from one's vision, universal salvation is as plain as the nose on your face, salvation not only for mankind, but for the angelic realm as well (yes, even for the evil messengers). You only have to come to see the true ending of the Bible.

If, for example, you were reading the biography of some famous person, where would you be most likely to learn his demise -- except at the end of the book? Similarly, where in the Bible is a person most likely to learn of the culmination of God's handiwork -- except at the end? And the true end of the Word of God is found in Revelation 21:1-5. How do we know these verses represent the end? For 2 major reasons. First of all, verse 6 reads "It is done." One version even reads, "It is finished." In other words, it is essentially saying "THE END." It is the completion of God's plan, the end of His work, and the end of the ages! Secondly, we know this is the end of God's Word because there are no further events taking place! That's it! Consequently, the balance of the Book, beginning with Christ's words "I am Alpha and Omega.." and on to Revelation 22:21 is what could be termed "The Epilogue."

Your verse, Revelation 21:8, is merely a part of that Epilogue.

You posted this epilogue nonsense before and it is still nonsense. Nothing but unsupported opinion. If you cannot provide any kind of support; historical, scriptural, lexical, grammatical, etc. it will remain nothing but unsupported opinion. This is the end of Revelation.

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. ​

 

[Der Alte]

Therein lies the irony; that's precisely what I see the ETers
doing to support their positions.

If you are going to respond to my posts, address what I say not what some anonymous group may or may not have said or done. If you can show that I have done what you claim, do so? OTOH I have shown in this thread where others have clearly quoted proof texts out-of-context.

 

[Rajni]

After the judgment and resurrection the Bride is revealed, and it is said that the Spirit and the Bride say come to all who will drink of the water of life freely. Even after the resurrection, the bride continues to invite people with the Spirit of God who invites people now.

Excellent point.

-

 

[2KnowHim]

Lets read this out-of-context proof text in its proper context. It does not mean that the whole world is reconciled to God, no matter what.

2Co 5:17-19
(17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
(18) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
(19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Once again not addressed to all of mankind but any man who is in Christ, who is a new creature, vs. 17, those God, who has reconciled to himself by Jesus Christ, vs. 19.

Am I the only one who sees you not understanding what this says?
Those that have been Reconciled to God by Jesus Christ.... is ............given the ministry, To Witness this wonderful news....
(That God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself...)

Der Alter,....How could it be anyone else to witness to this fact? Only those who have been Reconciled would be able to do this, as we are doing today. But you still won't see it.

You have become the Accuser to us who do believe this....
As twisting scripture, taking things out of context....Why? because we don't quote the whole chapter?

The thing of it is, is this....You pull out any scripture to show that God,.... destroys, has no mercy, no pity etc....
And we can see The Redemptive Work in any of them. But when we do it, you accuse us of twisting and taking out of context....that's not a fair pursuit of Truth now is it?

There is a whole new story just beneath the surface of the Written Word that only The Spirit of God can reveal.. like a "Watermark" if you would only ask Him.

There is no Life, Love, Light, Compassion, or Redemption of What Christ has done in your words...none.

 

[2die]

As 2knowhim has stated we now have the ministry of rereconciliation, the High Priest has already poured out the blood upon the altar, redemption has been purchased. This is wonderful news. Who has heard it and who believes it? Does ones unbelief make the sacrifice unefective? I hope not. To me the word reconciliation does not equate with "salvation" , but without salvation already purchased for us we could not advance to reconciliation. Reconciliation to me says repent, quit doing stupid things, and follow Christ. Jesus never went into a long dialog with common sinners, he would often simply say " your sins are forgiven go and sin no more" .What was He thinking, no altar call.

 

[Der Alte]

After the judgment and resurrection the Bride is revealed, and it is said that the Spirit and the Bride say come to all who will drink of the water of life freely. Even after the resurrection, the bride continues to invite people with the Spirit of God who invites people now.

Your proof text in its proper context.

Rev 22:13-17
(13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
(17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
​

Is it your argument that the bride is inviting dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and those who love/make a lie to come and take of the water of life freely, without repentance, without suffering the wages of sin? Jesus had just said in vs. 14 "they that do his commandments, they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Because "the dogs, sorcerers etc. are outside the city."

 

[SarahsKnight]

Jesus never went into a long dialog with common sinners, he would often simply say " your sins are forgiven go and sin no more" .What was He thinking, no altar call.

Hmm, that is an astute observation, 2die. At least, I never noticed that before, really. Not that I would say the "altar call" line of thinking in churches like all of the Baptist ones I have been in during my life as a believer is harmfully unbiblical or anything, but they really aren't like anything Jesus seemed to preach about. I think over the centuries it really is true that all churches have knowingly or unknowingly developed one or two of their own ideas different from the way of Christ or what is elsewhere indicated in the Bible. We're probably all guilty of some degree of heresy.

 

[Der Alte]

Am I the only one who sees you not understanding what this says?
Those that have been Reconciled to God by Jesus Christ.... is ............given the ministry, To Witness this wonderful news....
(That God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself...)

Der Alter,....How could it be anyone else to witness to this fact? Only those who have been Reconciled would be able to do this, as we are doing today. But you still won't see it. . . .

Please explain to me how "we" can "Witness this wonderful news....That God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.." to those who have or will die in their sins?

Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.​

My most recent sermon was titled "Is Anything too Hard for God." My text was Gen 18:15. I had 4 main points. "1. There Is No Promise Too Hard For God To Fulfill. 2. There Is No Prayer Too Hard For God To Answer. 3. There Is No Problem Too Hard For God To Solve. 4. There Is No Person Too Hard For God To Save." My next sermon it titled simply "Plan B." How God uses people although they don't follow God's perfect plan but follow their own "Plan B" such as Abraham having a son by Hagar, Jonah going the wrong way, Peter denying Jesus, etc. My teaching is full of hope.

​

 

[2KnowHim]

Please explain to me how "we" can "Witness this wonderful news....That God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.." to those who have or will die in their sins?

Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.​

My most recent sermon was titled "Is Anything too Hard for God." My text was Gen 18:15. I had 4 main points. "1. There Is No Promise Too Hard For God To Fulfill. 2. There Is No Prayer Too Hard For God To Answer. 3. There Is No Problem Too Hard For God To Solve. 4. There Is No Person Too Hard For God To Save." My next sermon it titled simply "Plan B." How God uses people although they don't follow God's perfect plan but follow their own "Plan B" such as Abraham having a son by Hagar, Jonah going the wrong way, Peter denying Jesus, etc. My teaching is full of hope.

​

Those sounds like good news sermons to me, how come we don't hear them in this thread?
So far all of your post imply just the opposite of these sermons.
"Is Anything too Hard for God." etc. according to you yes,... He cannot save beyond the Grave or will not.
You put a limit on His Mercy, and His Grace by saying it stops here....at the grave.
You have confined His Salvation to a time period or age.

To die in one's sin is simply to never have had a Relationship with Him here and now, which is a wasted Life, but I do not believe that it is over for them, nor do I believe that they won't have another opportunity to recieve Him.
If we Truly Believe that He took away the sin of the world, (which I do) then people need to know that God is satisfied with The Sacrifice of His Son for sin....and we need to tell them God is not imputing their sins unto them anymore.
I believe they will still have to go through the transformation and renewing of the mind.....but how much easier will it be without the flesh to contend with?

You asked me: Please explain to me how "we" can "Witness this wonderful news....That God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.." to those who have or will die in their sins?
How do you know who will die in their sins? If Christ died for their sins, then there is no longer those who die in them.
That is why we believe in UR, He did away with sin, people just don't know it.
Because of men's judgements, not God's.

 

[2die]

I am fairly new to this forum but as i look back at the posts over the last week and as the opening post is about universal reconciliation, I have seen most posts dealing with the point of salvation, hell, heaven, repentance but I haven't seen anything dealing with the term reconciliation. When I hear the word what comes to my mind is two entities which were together at one time and then were separated and then being brought back together, "reconciled" brought back to some former state of relationship. I would suggest that perhaps we could all discuss what it means to be reconciled to God and what the ministry of reconciliation might look like, perhaps with testimonies of how your lives changed when you came to know Jesus, what that reconciliation looks like in all of our lives. Do you know Him as Abba Father? When I first came to know Jesus, the first thing that happened in my life was the miraculous removal of all of the hatred that was in my heart. He replaced it with love and compassion. It was in an instant and it was amazing. I know it was God writing His law upon my heart beginning the process of conforming me into the image of Christ. I have yet a long way to go but we have eternity to get there but even at that we get renewed day bamazing. But His Grace is truly amazing.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Your proof text in its proper context.

Rev 22:13-17
(13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
(17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
​

Is it your argument that the bride is inviting dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and those who love/make a lie to come and take of the water of life freely, without repentance, without suffering the wages of sin? Jesus had just said in vs. 14 "they that do his commandments, they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Because "the dogs, sorcerers etc. are outside the city."

These people are in the lake of fire, the second death, the wages of sin is death, the lake of fire(pur) purifies them, they do transform through the consuming fire of God. The pattern follows, minus the limited time offer.

 

[James Is Back]

These people are in the lake of fire, the second death, the wages of sin is death, the lake of fire(pur) purifies them, they do transform through the consuming fire of God. The pattern follows, minus the limited time offer.

Where in Revelation does it say that those in the LoF go through a purification?

 

[jugghead]

I am fairly new to this forum but as i look back at the posts over the last week and as the opening post is about universal reconciliation, I have seen most posts dealing with the point of salvation, hell, heaven, repentance but I haven't seen anything dealing with the term reconciliation. When I hear the word what comes to my mind is two entities which were together at one time and then were separated and then being brought back together, "reconciled" brought back to some former state of relationship. I would suggest that perhaps we could all discuss what it means to be reconciled to God and what the ministry of reconciliation might look like, perhaps with testimonies of how your lives changed when you came to know Jesus, what that reconciliation looks like in all of our lives. Do you know Him as Abba Father? When I first came to know Jesus, the first thing that happened in my life was the miraculous removal of all of the hatred that was in my heart. He replaced it with love and compassion. It was in an instant and it was amazing. I know it was God writing His law upon my heart beginning the process of conforming me into the image of Christ. I have yet a long way to go but we have eternity to get there but even at that we get renewed day bamazing. But His Grace is truly amazing.

Very well put .... as a very loved son has told me .... it is all about covenant relationship

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Where in Revelation does it say that those in the LoF go through a purification?

People are thrown into the lake of "pur" and not too long after it is declared that Jesus will make "all" things new, unless your conclusion is annihilationism, it would make sense all the created things in the lake of pur are part of the "restoration of all things" . after Jesus says "behold I make all things new" the lake of fire is mentioned again and all the those in it, after this the bride revealed after the judgment is depicted as inviting people with the spirit to drink of the water of life freely. However, the Bride are the chosen, the Spirit is the Holy Spirit, so who else could the Bride be inviting? those who are without the city, drink of the water of life and be made whole, be made clean, freely.
.
The point of death is to free people from sin, that is why the lake of fire is called the second death. And that is why we labour and strive, because God is the savior of all mankind especially those who believe, not exclusively those who believe.

 

[2KnowHim]

Where in Revelation does it say that those in the LoF go through a purification?

Rev.19:20...These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Purification is found in the definition of the word....it means "Sulphur".

Sulphur is well known in Ancient times to have purification qualities.
And Cleansing properties.

theion
thi'-on
Probably neuter of G2304 (in its original sense of flashing); sulphur: - brimstone.
G2304
theios
thi'-os
From G2316; godlike (neuter as noun, divinity): - divine, godhead.

Our God is a Consuming fire, He consumes all things that are not of Him, it is a cleansing process
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This is a Divine Fire that purifies
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Sulfur

 

[Der Alte]

Those sounds like good news sermons to me, how come we don't hear them in this thread?
So far all of your post imply just the opposite of these sermons.
"Is Anything too Hard for God." etc. according to you yes,... He cannot save beyond the Grave or will not.
You put a limit on His Mercy, and His Grace by saying it stops here....at the grave.
You have confined His Salvation to a time period or age.

Wrong, the Word clearly confines salvation to this life. There is a big difference between cannot save and will not save.

To die in one's sin is simply to never have had a Relationship with Him here and now, which is a wasted Life, but I do not believe that it is over for them, nor do I believe that they won't have another opportunity to recieve Him.

Why didn't Jesus say You "never have had a Relationship with Me here and now, which is a wasted Life?" What you say you believe here is not supported by scripture.

If we Truly Believe that He took away the sin of the world, (which I do) then people need to know that God is satisfied with The Sacrifice of His Son for sin....and we need to tell them God is not imputing their sins unto them anymore.
I believe they will still have to go through the transformation and renewing of the mind.....but how much easier will it be without the flesh to contend with?

Joh_8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Joh_8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. ​

You asked me: Please explain to me how "we" can "Witness this wonderful news....That God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.." to those who have or will die in their sins?
How do you know who will die in their sins? If Christ died for their sins, then there is no longer those who die in them.

How do I know those to whom Jesus spoke died in their sin? Because Jesus said so. How do I know others will die in their sin? Jesus said "if you believe not that I am, you shall die in your sins." Jesus also said that those who die in their sins cannot go where He went. Jesus said that many will say in that day Lord, Lord...but I will say to them depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you." That sounds like they died in their sins and cannot go where Jesus is. Is there a verse somewhere where Jesus tells those who died in their sins that they will be saved anyway?

That is why we believe in UR, He did away with sin, people just don't know it.
Because of men's judgements, not God's.

Jesus did away with sin? I saw something on the news about someone who murdered 9 people in a church. Sounds like sin is still here.[/QUOTE]

 

[Light of the East]

UR would say that eventually every one is reconciled. According to this, when Hitler eventually gets to heaven, he will be repentant, and will accept Christ. I don't think this is obviously heretical, though I also don't think it's what the Biblical evidence points to. However the Biblical evidence is not that clear-cut. Paul can reasonably be read as supporting UR. The problem is that I don't think Jesus can. But there's enough symbolism in all of the discussions of judgement that people can legitimately disagree on what it means. That's why there are 3 views.

I think we have to face the fact that God may not have intended to give a specific picture of judgement. Why not? Maybe what will really happen is something we wouldn't understand. Maybe there are dangers to being too sure about judgement.

I think the thing that people don't factor in for this discussion -- let's take Hitler, as an example -- is that he is probably going through a purging by fire right now that if we knew the depths, pain, and torment of it, even lasting finitely until he is purged, we would run like crazy to avoid it!

Universal reconciliation does not mean that those who have freely, wantonly, and with malice engaged in wickedness get an automatic pass and don't have to face God's justice. It means that God's justice is proportionate to the crime committed. If it were not...if the torment lasted forever...that would be unjust punishment because it would not be proportionate justice.

The one thing that points very strongly to UR is the fact that God is love....a love that is so fiery and passionate that we cannot grasp even a tiny bit of it here on earth. Such a love by One Who has identified Himself as "Father" means that like any good and proper father, He will do all that is necessary to be sure that all His children come home to be with Him....no matter how long it takes to turn them around.

A love we simply cannot grasp.............