Universal reconciliation

[Der Alte]

Rev.19:20...These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Purification is found in the definition of the word....it means "Sulphur".

Sulphur is well known in Ancient times to have purification qualities.
And Cleansing properties.

theion
thi'-on
Probably neuter of G2304 (in its original sense of flashing); sulphur: - brimstone.
G2304
theios
thi'-os
From G2316; godlike (neuter as noun, divinity): - divine, godhead.

The ancients were mistaken in their belief that sulphur had purification and cleansing qualities. We now know that sulphur has no such properties

Our God is a Consuming fire, He consumes all things that are not of Him, it is a cleansing process
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This is a Divine Fire that purifies
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Sulfur

And once again 1 Cor 3:15 is used out-of-context trying to prove the false doctrine of UR.

1Co 3:10-17
(9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
(10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;​

Note this is not addressed to all mankind but Christians who are "laborers together with God,""God's husbandry,"God's building," vs. 9 ,"who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ, vs. 12, God's temple, vs. 17. "Any man,""every man" in vss. 12, 13, 14 and 15, 17 is not all mankind but "laborers together with God, God's building" etc. vss. 9, 12.

(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
​

Verse 13 is the conclusion of the sentence which begins in vs. 12, "every man's work" refers to any man who builds on the foundation of Jesus Christ in the first part of the sentence, not all mankind. Verse 15 cannot be used to support UR because vs. 17 says that "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;" Destroyed not "saved; yet so as by fire."

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I think the thing that people don't factor in for this discussion -- let's take Hitler, as an example -- is that he is probably going through a purging by fire right now that if we knew the depths, pain, and torment of it, even lasting finitely until he is purged, we would run like crazy to avoid it!

Except we know from experience/human history that humans frequently do not "run like crazy" to avoid doing what they know could land them in a heap of trouble, pain, torment.

Universal reconciliation does not mean that those who have freely, wantonly, and with malice engaged in wickedness get an automatic pass and don't have to face God's justice. It means that God's justice is proportionate to the crime committed. If it were not...if the torment lasted forever...that would be unjust punishment because it would not be proportionate justice.

But there is the rub. Justice for an offense against the Eternal demands eternal consequence. If it were not so, then there would have been no need for the price required to make it possible to be otherwise. Jesus did that for all and while here told us we had one shot (because of what He was about to do). He did not soften that one shot with a second option.

The one thing that points very strongly to UR is the fact that God is love....a love that is so fiery and passionate that we cannot grasp even a tiny bit of it here on earth. Such a love by One Who has identified Himself as "Father" means that like any good and proper father, He will do all that is necessary to be sure that all His children come home to be with Him....no matter how long it takes to turn them around.

A love we simply cannot grasp.............

How is that Love, Just or for His Glory for those who turned their lives around in this life to demonstrate for them in the next life that there was no need for them to do so in order to be restored to Him?
How is it for His Glory (and demonstrating Justice to the martyr) that some of them died for His Name at the hands of some who never turn their life around only to see those same murderers restored to the same Glory they have?

 

[2die]

Has any of you done an exhaustive study on the word translated "eternal"? I am no Greek scholar but it seems that there were several Greek words that were all translated into the word eternal, and also some of the Greek words that were translated eternal were also translated in other verses into the word world, age, ever etc. It seems to me that possibly the words were not quite as emphatic as the way we commonly use the word eternal..

One of the several translations that I use in study is the Young Literal Translation, it often uses the words "age of ages" instead of eternal. The preface to the YLT explains why it is expressed that way instead of using the word eternal. Perhaps one of you that is more literate than I would look into this and let me know your take on it. Thanks.

 

[Light of the East]

Except we know from experience/human history that humans frequently do not "run like crazy" to avoid doing what they know could land them in a heap of trouble, pain, torment.
But there is the rub. Justice for an offense against the Eternal demands eternal consequence. If it were not so, then there would have been no need for the price required to make it possible to be otherwise. Jesus did that for all and while here told us we had one shot (because of what He was about to do). He did not soften that one shot with a second option.
How is that Love, Just or for His Glory for those who turned their lives around in this life to demonstrate for them in the next life that there was no need for them to do so in order to be restored to Him?
How is it for His Glory (and demonstrating Justice to the martyr) that some of them died for His Name at the hands of some who never turn their life around only to see those same murderers restored to the same Glory they have?

Have to disagree with your first statement. You don't understand what I meant there. I didn't mean just hearing about hell or thinking about it. I meant that if people could have a real experience of what Hitler was going through right now, it would make them reconsider.

Your second argument is flawed. Your view is based on the Roman forensic view of salvation rather than the view of salvation as the restoration of the divine nature in mankind. Even if I were to grant that there is some form of justice to be had, the fact that God is eternal does not make the sins against Him to be eternal. Bad equation. For a sin against God to be eternal, it would have to have eternal consequence, such as killing God, which would be eternal in scope.

In the idea of justice, the justice of God is lex talonis, that is, proportionate to the crime. This was why the law was codified for the Jews. They were killing children for stealing a loaf of bread when hungry, hardly a proportionate or fair response. Therefore, to have eternal death as a proportionate punishment, one would have to eternally kill another soul. Destroy it. Make it null and void.

The answer to your last question is: we don't know. Surely there is a loss of glory and reward which comes into play in this. What makes you think that the unrepentant (in this life) murderer of Christians will have the same glory? And did I suggest that? Perhaps the murderer will be a doorstop in heaven instead of enjoying the beatific vision.

Roman love for law is not the basis upon which I wish to base my understanding of salvation. Scripture is clear that God is love and that He is Father. As such, I don't accept unending torment for a child of God, no matter how bad. That sounds more like the "gods" of paganism, who run around angry and torment human beings for their own pleasure.

 

[brixken7]

Has any of you done an exhaustive study on the word translated "eternal"? I am no Greek scholar but it seems that there were several Greek words that were all translated into the word eternal, and also some of the Greek words that were translated eternal were also translated in other verses into the word world, age, ever etc. It seems to me that possibly the words were not quite as emphatic as the way we commonly use the word eternal..

One of the several translations that I use in study is the Young Literal Translation, it often uses the words "age of ages" instead of eternal. The preface to the YLT explains why it is expressed that way instead of using the word eternal. Perhaps one of you that is more literate than I would look into this and let me know your take on it. Thanks.

F.W. Farrar on “Aeonian”
“Of all the arguments on this question, the one which appears to me the most absolutely and hopelessly futile, is the one in which so many seem to rest with entire content; viz. that "eternal or aeonian life" must mean endless life, and therefore that “aeonian chastisement” must mean “endless chastisement.” This battered and aged argument, . . . if it had possessed a particle of cogency, would not have been set aside as entirely valueless by such minds as those of Origen and the two Gregories in ancient days, nor by multitudes in the days of St. Augustine and St. Jerome, nor by the most brilliant thinker among the schoolmen, nor by many of our greatest living divines . . . . No proposition is capable of more simple proof than that aeonian is not a synonym of endless. It only means, or can mean, in its primary sense, pertaining to an aeon, and therefore “indefinite,” since an aeon may be either long or short; and in its secondary sense “spiritual,” “pertaining to the unseen world,” “an attribute of that which is above and beyond time,” an attribute expressive not of duration but of quality. Can such an explanation of the word be denied by any competent or thoughtful reader of John 5:39; 6:54; 17:3; 1 John 5:13,20? Would not the introduction of the word “endless” into those Divine utterances be an unspeakable degradation of their meaning? And as for the argument that the redeemed would thus lose their promised bliss, it is at once so unscriptural and so selfish that, after what Mr. Cox and others have said of it, one may hope that no one will ever be able to use it again without a blush. I cannot here diverge into a discussion with Bishop Wordsworth and Canon Ryle, whose sermons need some adversaria rather longer than I can here devote to them; but as they both dwell on the fact that people who spoke Greek interpreted aionios to mean endless, I reply that some of the greatest masters of Greek, both in classical times and among the Fathers, saw quite clearly that, though the word might connote endlessness by being attributively added to endless things, it had in itself no such meaning. I cannot conceive how any candid mind can deny the force of these considerations. If even Origenists would freely speak of future punishment as aionios but never as ateleutetos [without end] –– if, as even these papers have shown, Plato uses the word as the antithesis of endlessness –– if St. Gregory of Nyssa uses it as the epithet of “an interval”–– if, as though to leave this Augustinian argument without the faintest shadow of a foundation, there are absolutely two passages of Scripture (Hab.3:6 and Rom.16:25,26) where the very word occurs in two consecutive clauses, and is, in the second of the two clauses, applied to God, and yet is, in the first of the two clauses, applied to things which are temporary or terminated –– what shall be said of disputants who still enlist the controversial services of a phantom which has been so often laid in the tomb from which it ought never again to emerge? How is it that not one out of the scores of writers who have animadverted on my book have so much as noticed the very remarkable fact to which I have called attention, that those who followed Origen in holding out a possible hope beyond the grave founded their argument for the terminability of torments on the acknowledged sense of this very word, and on the fact that other words and phrases which do unmistakably mean endless are used of the duration of good, but are never used of the duration of evil?”
The Wider Hope (1890), pages 327-330.

 

[Der Alte]

Has any of you done an exhaustive study on the word translated "eternal"? I am no Greek scholar but it seems that there were several Greek words that were all translated into the word eternal, and also some of the Greek words that were translated eternal were also translated in other verses into the word world, age, ever etc. It seems to me that possibly the words were not quite as emphatic as the way we commonly use the word eternal..

One of the several translations that I use in study is the Young Literal Translation, it often uses the words "age of ages" instead of eternal. The preface to the YLT explains why it is expressed that way instead of using the word eternal. Perhaps one of you that is more literate than I would look into this and let me know your take on it. Thanks.

Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.

Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:

166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος

1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be

2) without beginning

3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​

2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

"The predominant meaning of αιωνιος , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.

αιωνιος is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.

"The use of αιωνιος here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 αιωνιος aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’

aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.

aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.

The most frequent use of αιωνιος in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αιωνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αιωνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

αιωνιος aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​

αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} αιωνιος from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj

AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71

GK - 173 { aionios }

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

2) without beginning

3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).

Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]

In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown​

Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios[/indent]

 

[2KnowHim]

Wrong, the Word clearly confines salvation to this life. There is a big difference between cannot save and will not save.

No, scripture does not difine Salvation to this life only, but that is all you SEE, and this conversation is not Fruitful to either one of us.
But you know something if we are wrong about UR, (which we are not) but if we are at least I would rather be wrong on the side of Love and Mercy, instead of ET.
Love never fails
Love overcomes All
God is Love.

 

[Der Alte]

Previous Post Continued

Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.

0166 aionios αιωνιος without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting

LEH lxx lexicon

UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)

aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time

αιωνιος (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).

1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).

2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).

3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY

αιωνιος

• Strong's - Greek 165

• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):

again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds

• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):

age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);

• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):

In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.

The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…

aion - αιων - age, world

A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.

• aionion, aionios – αιωνιον, αιωνιος - eternal

B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."

i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."

ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."

iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"

iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."

v. etc.

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.

• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.

A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"

B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"

C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"

D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)

• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – εις τους αιωνας των αιωνιωον - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"

A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."

B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."

C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."

D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System. ​

 

[Light of the East]

I wonder if our thinking on this is colored by the fact that we are fallen creatures and thus unable to think as God thinks? What is the difference between us (us and God)?

God is unfathomable in His mercy.
We are creatures who desire revenge.

God is love.
We are selfishness.

God desires all to be saved.
We want the worst of us to go to hell forever.

We view others as deliberately and consciously electing to do evil and therefore worthy of eternal punishment.
God sees us as blind and ignorant and therefore all the much more deserving of pity.

God is love
We are wrath.

God easily forgives sins against us.
We hold grudges forever.

Could it be that we, when thinking of eternity, justice, and the life after death, tend to cast God into our own mold?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Have to disagree with your first statement. You don't understand what I meant there. I didn't mean just hearing about hell or thinking about it. I meant that if people could have a real experience of what Hitler was going through right now, it would make them reconsider.

And I will say it again that I doubt that is true. We are inclined to sin and often delude ourselves into thinking we will get away with it, which we often do in this life. Which is why it is necessary to restore Justice in the next.

Your second argument is flawed. Your view is based on the Roman forensic view of salvation rather than the view of salvation as the restoration of the divine nature in mankind. Even if I were to grant that there is some form of justice to be had, the fact that God is eternal does not make the sins against Him to be eternal. Bad equation. For a sin against God to be eternal, it would have to have eternal consequence, such as killing God, which would be eternal in scope.

If one considers Whom we are offending when we sin I do not think the argument is flawed at all. Slapping my brother will not have the same outcome to restore that relationship as the same offense against my father or against say a president or king. Now magnify that to an Infinite Eternal God and we cannot possibly restore the relationship severed and it will have eternal consequence if the One offended is Eternal (though severity could still obviously vary with the various offenses committed). So it is not just the offense (or the seeming temporal nature of it) that one must consider but also the One offended. And I think at the root of it, one could say the pride of sin goes against our nature - which is eternal as well - making that of eternal consequence.
It is also not a matter of all get same - am happy to speculate just like Heaven that the "rewards" of Hell for the damned will be varied - but regardless of the level neither ends. And Christ Himself spoke of the un-endingness of both fates in the same breath. So does Heaven end for those in glory as well? (some have said it will BTW)

In the idea of justice, the justice of God is lex talonis, that is, proportionate to the crime. This was why the law was codified for the Jews. They were killing children for stealing a loaf of bread when hungry, hardly a proportionate or fair response. Therefore, to have eternal death as a proportionate punishment, one would have to eternally kill another soul. Destroy it. Make it null and void.

Even the law had capital punishment - both banishment and death. Essentially Hell is banishment that never ends - so the principles making that a Just punishment in the next life are the same applied here except in the next life the Judge is not human, knows our hearts and will Judge rightly.

The answer to your last question is: we don't know. Surely there is a loss of glory and reward which comes into play in this. What makes you think that the unrepentant (in this life) murderer of Christians will have the same glory? And did I suggest that? Perhaps the murderer will be a doorstop in heaven instead of enjoying the beatific vision.

Wouldn't argue anyone in Heaven or Hell gets the same treatment. God is not a liberal or communist.

Roman love for law is not the basis upon which I wish to base my understanding of salvation. Scripture is clear that God is love and that He is Father. As such, I don't accept unending torment for a child of God, no matter how bad. That sounds more like the "gods" of paganism, who run around angry and torment human beings for their own pleasure.

We could properly hope all of mankind would be saved. Christ Himself however did not indicate anyone got a second chance or an extension on the offer of His Love for us after this life. One life, one Judgement then Heaven or Hell.

 

[Rajni]

If you are going to respond to my posts, address what I say not what some anonymous group may or may not have said or done. If you can show that I have done what you claim, do so? OTOH I have shown in this thread where others have clearly quoted proof texts out-of-context.

Hmmm... where to begin? Pretty much every post you've
ever made questioning God's effectiveness in accomplishing
His soteriological mission. The most recent being post #319,
where the, rather clear, implications of 1 Timothy 4:10 are
set aside. If you don't see it that way (and I guarantee
you won't), that's okay. Being a veteran of Christian debate
forums, I've learned that it's often considered "cherry-picking" or
"proof-texting" when the verses cited are used to disprove
one's deeply-rooted beliefs. Totally understandable.

The ancients were mistaken in their belief that sulphur had purification and cleansing qualities. We now know that sulphur has no such properties

Actually, it is still used to treat certain conditions
(see Pharmaceutical use; Antibacterial Properties)

-

 

[bottomofsandal]

Those who find it may be few, but it will be interesting to see how
many are those it finds. (Luke 15:1-7)

-

I'm sorry, but what does this mean ?
Isn't this simply a re-write of the passage ?


The Bible says the way is narrow and few find it...
AND the other road is broad and heavily populated.


All the romanticism and optimism will not get everyone saved.
Remember: little flock, the few, the chosen, the elect, my sheep, etc


God is love. God's love is love, not your love or what you wish God love was like.
To not preach, rebuke, correct, and teach the truth of God is not very loving.

 

[jugghead]

Here is a perspective to think about .....

We have the broad way and we have the narrow way

The world is on neither way, they are not even searching for the truth, it is those searching for the truth that are on one of these ways ..... so ........ religion is the broad way to search for the truth ..... many take it ..... and find the "some will be saved" understanding ..... the narrow way is the "all will be saved" understanding ..... only a few chose (or are chosen) to understand this one

This is what I have come to understand, I have studied both and find that the new wine was saved for last, the "all" understanding.

Blessings to all

If people want to discredit this, so be it, but I cannot go back to what I have been delivered from

 

[2KnowHim]

I like that Jugg,...I find it interesting too that Jesus mainly had a problem with the Literalist/Religious mindsets of the day, ya know, ...those that say they see and see not. The Law is and always was Spiritual, but the Letter/Literal is what kills and still does today.

And also we are not to live by Bread alone, but by Every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
Many Christians today don't believe that God still speaks to us through His Son, if it isnt' written with pen and ink then it must be false doctrine. And that's not to say that it would go against Scripture because it doesn't, but He still has much to say and even when He was here, we are told that : Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

There is No Book that could Contain The God that I know, not even the bible, how about you?

 

[bottomofsandal]

Here is a perspective to think about .....

We have the broad way and we have the narrow way

The world is on neither way, they are not even searching for the truth, it is those searching for the truth that are on one of these ways ..... so ........ religion is the broad way to search for the truth ..... many take it ..... and find the "some will be saved" understanding ..... the narrow way is the "all will be saved" understanding ..... only a few chose (or are chosen) to understand this one

This is what I have come to understand, I have studied both and find that the new wine was saved for last, the "all" understanding.

Blessings to all

If people want to discredit this, so be it, but I cannot go back to what I have been delivered from

Grace and peace to you jug !


We need to remember that God is narrow minded.

Contrary to worldly thinking, there is only one path to God.

Jesus warns us few find the narrow Way aka His way.

A man must be on the broad road if he is not on the narrow way.


The Bible makes no reference to the broad way as seeker friendly.

A true seeker would find the narrow way, the way less traveled.

There is nothing that says everyman cannot be on The Kings Highway.



You are right in stating religiosity and manmade teachings are the broad way.

This false religion leading people away from God is a highway to hell.

Jesus is the narrow Way. Few find Him. These are The Lords words.



It is a challenge to say the narrow way is the teaching of universalism.

 

[brixken7]

[QUOTE="ranes1, post: 68093981, member: 377666"]I hope that all may be saved, though I do not expect all to be saved for Christ said in Matthew 7:13-14, “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few." It's quite clear that God set the standard really high.[/QUOTE]

Nearly 40 years ago I went to a lecture given by Ernest L. Martin, a somewhat prominent theologian who was listed in Who's Who in America. In spite of his credentials, he told a very simple story to illustrate a very profound biblical truth. Here it is as best as I remember it:

"Ten people launched out in a boat to reach a island located several miles from the shore. As they did so, several people fell in the water and were not rescued. Once out to sea, an observer on the shore noted that 2 or 3 passengers of the boat fell overboard and were not seen again. Then another passenger on the boat fell overboard and, seemingly, perished. When the boat could no longer be seen from shore, the observer took a telescope he had with him and scanned the horizon. To his surprise he saw that all ten people had safely landed on the distant island!"

Mr. Martin probably included some scriptures in his lecture, but I don't recall any of them. All I remember is that simple story which opened my eyes to universal salvation. Just hearing that story (and understanding his analogy) made me about 75 to 85 per cent convinced that universal salvation was the truth! Since then, after researching the Greek words aion and aionios, I went on to become 1000 per cent convinced!

You see, most people are looking at God's intermediate judgments -- not His final judgment, known as the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). This is the judgment era that is spoken of in Isaiah 26:9 in which "the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." At this time the spiritual blindness over all nations is prophesied to be removed (Isaiah 25:7), for God's ultimate purpose in judgment is that all men learn righteousness and "that all men should honor the Son" (John 5:22,23). We should note that God will judge the world not only through Christ -- but through His saints (I Corinthians 6:2)! And you can be sure that God's people will not condemn anyone to an endless punishment.

......................

 

[Der Alte]

Hmmm... where to begin? Pretty much every post you've
ever made questioning God's effectiveness in accomplishing
His soteriological mission.

I have questioned nothing! Everything I have posted I have supported with scriptures. Did you happen to read my post on Jeremiah 13:11-14? God said
"I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory:" This was an accomplished fact in God's view, however this verse continues, "but they would not hear." And in vs. 14. "I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." According to UR, "This cannot be, if God wills something, it is going to happen, nothing man can say or do will change it." For UR to be true we have to ignore or change the very words of God, in Jeremiah, because Peter said that God is not willing that any should perish.

The most recent being post #319,
where the, rather clear, implications of 1 Timothy 4:10 are
set aside. If you don't see it that way (and I guarantee
you won't), that's okay.

I have set aside nothing. The problem with the 1 Tim 4:10 argument is it is taken in isolation out-of-context. And those who place their entire argument on this verse ignore the fact that Jesus is Lord, His words take precedent over anything the later NT writers wrote. We interpret the words of Paul, and the other NT writers so that they agree with the words of Jesus, we don't reinterpret the words of Jesus. Jesus said "these go away into everlasting punishment." UR says "Oh no that can't possibly mean 'everlasting punishment' it must mean something else because Peter said God is not willing that any should perish." Jesus said, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." When will Jesus say to these workers of iniquity, "I now know you, welcome to my kingdom?"

Being a veteran of Christian debate
forums, I've learned that it's often considered "cherry-picking" or
"proof-texting" when the verses cited are used to disprove
one's deeply-rooted beliefs. Totally understandable.

Wrong! It is called "cherry picking" and "proof texting" when verses are cited in isolation, ignoring the context and other verses which contradict the false interpretation. For example 1 Cor 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." Has been quoted at least twice in this thread trying to prop up UR. But when read in context, i.e. vss. 9-17 we find that vs. 15 does not refer to all mankind but "laborers together with God: God's husbandry, God's building." vs. 9, who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ, vs. 12, the temple of God in whom the Holy Spirit dwells, vs. 16. Verse 15 cannot be used to support UR because vs. 17 says "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy." Destroyed not "saved; yet so as by fire."

Actually, it is still used to treat certain conditions
(see Pharmaceutical use; Antibacterial Properties.)

From your link

"The inhibitory effect of these particles may or may not be due to a combination of the sulfur particles with substances in the medium in which they are suspended. 5. Evidence suggests that the activity of both alcohol-sulfur and carbowax-sulfur is due to sulfur in the same form. The inhibitory effect is characterized by prolonged bacteriostasis with similar activity over a wide range of dilutions. There is no evidence of true bactericidal action even with the highest concentrations used." ​

Sulphur does not cleanse or purify it "may" inhibit the growth of bacteria it does not destroy it. As I said the ancients were wrong about sulphur it has no cleansing or purifying properties.

 

[OldShepherd]

...

 

[OldShepherd]

...

 

[jugghead]

I like that Jugg,...I find it interesting too that Jesus mainly had a problem with the Literalist/Religious mindsets of the day, ya know, ...those that say they see and see not. The Law is and always was Spiritual, but the Letter/Literal is what kills and still does today.

And also we are not to live by Bread alone, but by Every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
Many Christians today don't believe that God still speaks to us through His Son, if it isnt' written with pen and ink then it must be false doctrine. And that's not to say that it would go against Scripture because it doesn't, but He still has much to say and even when He was here, we are told that : Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

There is No Book that could Contain The God that I know, not even the bible, how about you?

Yes, I agree