Universal reconciliation

[Rajni]

The Bible says the way is narrow and few find it...
AND the other road is broad and heavily populated.

The bible also says that no one seeks God to begin with, making "few find it" something of an understatement.

This is what makes the Good Shepherd so great, illustrated in the Luke verse I previously cited.

All the romanticism and optimism will not get everyone saved.
Remember: little flock, the few, the chosen, the elect, my sheep, etc

No one is claiming that romanticism and optimism saves.
We are operating under the assumption that Jesus saves.

God is love. God's love is love, not your love or what you wish God love was like.

God's ways are higher than our ways, not lower.
In order to believe in ET I would have to think my ways were higher than His.
Not gonna do that, sorry.

I have questioned nothing! Everything I have posted I have supported with scriptures.

You've used your preferred interpretation of scripture to support ET, a stance which calls into question UR.

For UR to be true we have to ignore or change the very words of God, in Jeremiah, because Peter said that God is not willing that any should perish.

This makes no sense.

Since God is not willing that anyone should perish (and as we know, nothing can thwart His will), how could this conflict with UR?

I have set aside nothing. The problem with the 1 Tim 4:10 argument is it is taken in isolation out-of-context. And those who place their entire argument on this verse ignore the fact that Jesus is Lord, His words take precedent over anything the later NT writers wrote.

No one is placing their entire argument on one verse. There are plenty more where that came from. And it's precisely because Jesus is Lord that we have the confidnce we do in His salvific power.

Wrong! It is called "cherry picking" and "proof texting" when verses are cited in isolation, ignoring the context and other verses which contradict the false interpretation.

"False interpretation", meaning an interpretation to which you, personally, do not subscribe.

As I said the ancients were wrong about sulphur it has no cleansing or purifying properties.

Since the ancients were the audience of the time, it would seem that sulfur was used to convey purification. Even without it, we know that fire purifies and refines. Hence the fire right along with the brimstone.

 

[jugghead]

And also we are not to live by Bread alone, but by Every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

In God's language, man does not live on the Logos alone, but by the Rhema that proceeds from the mouth of God

Rhema/quickening/revelation/His understanding and what He meant by it,

this is how He is finishing the work He started in me

 

[Der Alte]

.... You've used your preferred interpretation of scripture to support ET, a stance which calls into question UR.

I quoted scripture exactly as it appears in the Bible and I can support the translation from the original languages.

This makes no sense.
Since God is not willing that anyone should perish (and as we know, nothing can thwart His will), how could this conflict with UR?

And once again you ignore verses which I have quoted and which debunk your claim that "God is not willing that anyone should perish (and as we know, nothing can thwart His will)" Once again Did you happen to read my post on Jeremiah 13:11-14? God said "I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory:" This was an accomplished fact in God's view, however this verse continues, "but they would not hear." And in vs. 14. "I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."

According to UR, "God is not willing that anyone should perish (and as we know, nothing can thwart His will),." God's will was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to Him as a belt clings to a man's waist but they would not hear so God did not pity, did not spare, did not have mercy, but destroyed them. For UR to be true we have to ignore or change the very words of God, in Jeremiah, because Peter said that God is not willing that any should perish.

No one is placing their entire argument on one verse. There are plenty more where that came from. And it's precisely because Jesus is Lord that we have the confidnce we do in His salvific power.

And ignore verses such as,

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

"False interpretation", meaning an interpretation to which you, personally, do not subscribe.

See above. let me see what hoops have to be jumped through to "prove" Jesus didn't mean what He said because Peter later said "God is not willing that any should perish."

Since the ancients were the audience of the time, it would seem that sulfur was used to convey purification. Even without it, we know that fire purifies and refines. Hence the fire right along with the brimstone.

Where is sulphur or brimstone ever used to convey purification? Here is what I was responding to.

Rev.19:20...These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Purification is found in the definition of the word....it means "Sulphur".
Sulphur is well known in Ancient times to have purification qualities.
And Cleansing properties.

Nothing in Rev 19:20 refers to purification. When God inspired John write this, "sulphur" had nothing to do with purification.

 

[jugghead]

If UR is not of God, then He will do away with it and the same holds true for ET

 

[Rajni]

According to UR, "God is not willing that anyone should perish (and as we know, nothing can thwart His will),." God's will was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to Him as a belt clings to a man's waist but they would not hear so God did not pity, did not spare, did not have mercy, but destroyed them. For UR to be true we have to ignore or change the very words of God, in Jeremiah, because Peter said that God is not willing that any should perish.

Or ignore or change the very words of God, through
Peter (remember, "*all* scripture is God-breathed...")
because Jeremiah alleges the best God could accomplish
was, essentially, a little temper-tantrum when things
(supposedly) didn't go His way.

Again, His ways are *higher* than our ways, not lower.
If it's lower, it's probably not the real deal.

let me see what hoops have to be jumped through to "prove" Jesus didn't mean what He said because Peter later said "God is not willing that any should perish."

I'll let Peter and Jesus battle it out (though I doubt
they're particularly prone to debateaholic tendencies at
this point in time).

But I do appreciate the help in reconfirming to my mind
just how self-contradictory the bible really is.

-

 

[2KnowHim]

Note this is not addressed to all mankind but Christians who are "laborers together with God,""God's husbandry,"God's building," vs. 9 ,"who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ, vs. 12, God's temple, vs. 17. "Any man,""every man" in vss. 12, 13, 14 and 15, 17 is not all mankind but "laborers together with God, God's building" etc. vss. 9, 12.

So, you believe that this is only referring to those that are Christians right? And if so then they would also be written in the Book of Life. (I can agree to that).
And this has nothing to do with All Mankind? (I can also agree to that, but only in this portion of scripture)

What I haven't heard you say is,.... if you believe this is referring to the same fire as the Lake of Fire. (which I do believe it is)
If you believe that it's the same, then how do you get around this....?

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Looks like to me whether you're a Christian or not, All Mankind will go through the Fire.
And if Christians have to go through it for the purpose of Burning up works that are not of God, then no doubt those that are not of the household of God for the same purpose. The only difference is that Christians may have a whole lot less to be burned up than the others....this is why it says "they shall have their Part".


Rev 5:13 And every creature (Created thing) which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Sounds like not only All Mankind, but Every Created thing, even the animals will praise Him.

(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Destroyed not "saved; yet so as by fire."

Just so the readers know, this word destroy is the same word as defile, and they both mean to pine away or waste to ruin.

This is just a note in the margin but I found it interesting:
defile. Greek. phtheiro. Same word as "destroy" below. Occurs also in 1Co_15:33. 2Co_7:2; 2Co_11:3. Eph_4:22. Jud_1:10. Rev_19:2 (corrupt). The word "mar" will suit both clauses. The man who mars God's Temple by introducing divisions, and the wisdom that is not from above (Jam_3:15), will himself be marred (1Co_3:15).

God is NOT a Destroyer of man, but He will destroy those things that keep us from Knowing Him...He is Always Redemptive in His Purpose, no matter what it looks like. If we can't see Christ and His Finished works in every Word of Scripture, then we are truly missing out on Life.

 

[Der Alte]

Or ignore or change the very words of God, through
Peter (remember, "*all* scripture is God-breathed...")
because Jeremiah alleges the best God could accomplish
was, essentially, a little temper-tantrum when things
(supposedly) didn't go His way.

I understand you to be saying that Jeremiah 13 is not the words of God. Interesting when one's assumptions/presuppositions contradict scripture, throw out scripture.

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD
Jer 13:2 the word of the LORD,
Jer 13:3 the word of the LORD
Jer 13:5 the LORD commanded me.
Jer 13:6 the LORD said
Jer 13:8 the word of the LORD
Jer 13:9 Thus saith the LORD
Jer 13:11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
Jer 13:12 Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?
Jer 13:13 Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
Jer 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Jer 13:15 the LORD hath spoken. ​

Again, His ways are *higher* than our ways, not lower.
If it's lower, it's probably not the real deal.

And you are the final authority on what is higher and what is lower?

I'll let Peter and Jesus battle it out (though I doubt
they're particularly prone to debateaholic tendencies at
this point in time).

Meantime people are being deceived, believing that they can live like the devil, without any consequences, everyone will be saved in the end, no matter what. If I'm wrong I have lost nothing, but if those who reject God, relying on UR, are wrong, they have lost everything.

But I do appreciate the help in reconfirming to my mind
just how self-contradictory the bible really is.-

There are no contradictions in the Bible! The supposed "contradictions" result from people imposing their assumptions/presuppositions on the Bible.

 

[Rajni]

I understand you to be saying that Jeremiah 13 is not the words of God. Interesting when one's assumptions/presuppositions contradict scripture, throw out scripture.

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD....

Since I didn't actually see God pen those words, I
cannot claim to be a final authority on whether or not
they're legit.

Simply because a piece of paper says "Thus saith the
LORD" doesn't mean anything.

And you are the final authority on what is higher and what is lower?

Could you show me where I said that?

That's about as accurate as me saying that you are
a final authority on what pieces of paper have "truth"
printed on them and which ones don't.

One doesn't have to be a final authority on
something before coming to a conclusion about it,
does one?

Meantime people are being deceived, believing that they can live like the devil, without any consequences, everyone will be saved in the end, no matter what. If I'm wrong I have lost nothing, but if those who reject God, relying on UR, are wrong, they have lost everything.

Not everyone uses God as fire insurance.
And equating UR with "rejecting God" is a false comparison.
Please refrain from doing that as it only betrays one's
ignorance on the subject.

There are no contradictions in the Bible!

Of course there are.
I used to think there weren't, but I was wrong.


-

 

[James Is Back]

Since I didn't actually see God pen those words, I
cannot claim to be a final authority on whether or not
they're legit-

The Bible is God breathed. To deny that is to deny the whole truth of the Bible.

 

[Rajni]

The Bible is God breathed. To deny that is to deny the whole truth of the Bible.

Technically speaking, everything is God-breathed,
since God is the Creator thereof.

But regarding sacred texts specifically,
it's interesting to note that it says "all scripture"
is God-breathed, rather than "the bible" is
God-breathed. Therefore, there's quite a bit
of scripture outside of what man decided would
become "the bible" that could also be considered
"God breathed" (in the text-specific sense as opposed
to the "well God created everything so yeah" sense. )

That said, I don't really see the sense in believing something
is true just because it says that about itself. That
would be a circular kind of reasoning.

With regards to the contradictions -- be they actual or
just apparent -- there's a saying: "I have read many
books, but the Bible reads me." I have long suspected
that the bible performs as something of a mirror,
reflecting the heart of the person who reads it.
In the end, I learn more about the individual than
I do about whatever it is the individual is using
scripture to convey.


-

 

[Der Alte]

So, you believe that this is only referring to those that are Christians right? And if so then they would also be written in the Book of Life. (I can agree to that).
And this has nothing to do with All Mankind? (I can also agree to that, but only in this portion of scripture)

I did not say anything different.

What I haven't heard you say is,.... if you believe this is referring to the same fire as the Lake of Fire. (which I do believe it is)
If you believe that it's the same, then how do you get around this....?

The fire that tests the works of Christians is not necessarily the lake of fire. Nothing in scripture states/implies that Christians will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Looks like to me whether you're a Christian or not, All Mankind will go through the Fire.
And if Christians have to go through it for the purpose of Burning up works that are not of God, then no doubt those that are not of the household of God for the same purpose. The only difference is that Christians may have a whole lot less to be burned up than the others....this is why it says "they shall have their Part".

Revelation says nothing about Christians having a part in the lake of fire. Rev 21:8 "the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone:" ! Cor 3;:15 does not say that Christians go through the fire. It is the work that is tested by fire. "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire." And this vs. does not say that Christians are saved by fire "shall be saved; yet so as through fire."

ISV 1Co 3:15 If his work is burned up, he will suffer loss. However, he himself will be saved, but it will be like going through fire.​

Rev 5:13 And every creature (Created thing) which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Sounds like not only All Mankind, but Every Created thing, even the animals will praise Him.

Those who are living at that time.

Just so the readers know, this word destroy is the same word as defile, and they both mean to pine away or waste to ruin.
This is just a note in the margin but I found it interesting:
defile. Greek. phtheiro. Same word as "destroy" below. Occurs also in 1Co_15:33. 2Co_7:2; 2Co_11:3. Eph_4:22. Jud_1:10. Rev_19:2 (corrupt). The word "mar" will suit both clauses. The man who mars God's Temple by introducing divisions, and the wisdom that is not from above (Jam_3:15), will himself be marred (1Co_3:15).

NET 1Co 3:17 If someone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, which is what you are.
ASV 1Co 3:17 If any man destroyeth the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, and such are ye.
ESV 1Co 3:17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.
ISV 1Co 3:17 If anyone destroys God's sanctuary, God will destroy him, for God's sanctuary is holy. And you are that sanctuary!
NIV 1 Cor 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

φθείρω phtheirō fthi'-ro
Probably strengthened from φθίω phthiō (to pine or waste): properly to shrivel or wither, that is, to spoil (by any process) or (genitive) to ruin (especially figuratively by moral influences, to deprave): - corrupt (self), defile, destroy.​

God is NOT a Destroyer of man, but He will destroy those things that keep us from Knowing Him...He is Always Redemptive in His Purpose, no matter what it looks like. If we can't see Christ and His Finished works in every Word of Scripture, then we are truly missing out on Life.

Gen 6:13 So God announced to Noah, "I've decided to destroy every living thing on earth, because it has become filled with violence due to them. Look! I'm about to annihilate them, along with the earth.

Gen 19:29 And so it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham and brought Lot out from the midst of the destruction when he overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.

Exo 14:27 Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the water returned to its normal depth at daybreak. The Egyptians tried to retreat in front of the advancing water, but the LORD destroyed the Egyptians in the middle of the sea.

Num 3:13 because all the first-born belong to me. When I destroyed all the first born in the land of Egypt, I consecrated all the first-born in Israel for myself—from human beings to livestock. They belong to me, since I am the LORD."

Deu 8:20 Just like the nations whom the LORD destroyed before you, so will you be destroyed, because you did not listen to the voice of the LORD your God." ​

 

[Der Alte]

Since I didn't actually see God pen those words, I
cannot claim to be a final authority on whether or not
they're legit.

Simply because a piece of paper says "Thus saith the
LORD" doesn't mean anything.

But you accept anything which supports your UR assumptions/presuppositions without question, such as 2 Pet 3:9 and reject any verse which you think contradicts it?

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
​

What beside your opinion makes this God's word but Jeremiah is not?

Could you show me where I said that?

That's about as accurate as me saying that you are
a final authority on what pieces of paper have "truth"
printed on them and which ones don't.

One doesn't have to be a final authority on
something before coming to a conclusion about it,
does one?

I have never said anything which could be interpreted as I am an authority on anything. I cite the authorities. For example the Jews accepted Jeremiah as the word of God centuries before UR was ever heard of. Jesus accepted Jeremiah as the word of God, He quoted from Jeremiah several times, for example, He quoted from Jeremiah 7:11 in Matthew 21:13, cf. Mark 11:17, Luke 19:46

And He said to them, "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of thieves.'" And He said to them, "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of thieves.'" ​

Not everyone uses God as fire insurance.
And equating UR with "rejecting God" is a false comparison.
Please refrain from doing that as it only betrays one's
ignorance on the subject.

I did not equate UR with rejecting God. Perhaps you should read more carefully.

Of course there are.
I used to think there weren't, but I was wrong.

Wrong! There are several websites online which address and refute every so-called "contradiction/error" you think you have found.

 

[2KnowHim]

The fire that tests the works of Christians is not necessarily the lake of fire. Nothing in scripture states/implies that Christians will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

These sound like Christians to me, and notice it does'nt say they won't go through it, it just says they won't be hurt of it.

 

[Der Alte]

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

These sound like Christians to me, and notice it does'nt say they won't go through it, it just says they won't be hurt of it.

That is an assumption not supported by any other scripture. Nothing in scripture states/implies that Christians will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.​

 

[jugghead]

The Father is the Spirit of the mind that contains all wisdom, knowledge and understanding (which is also in Christ)

The Son is the Spirit of the heart that contains all Love, forgiveness and compassion (which is also in the Father)

If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father

Those who seek the Son have their old heart of hatred put to death by the Father through Christ (through the forgiveness of sin), thus given a heart of love, given HIS heart of Love, compassion and forgiveness (Christ)

Those who seek the Father have the old mind of ignorance put to death (destroyed) by the Son by the giving of the Father's Spirit for the renewing of the mind so they can see the Father ..... given HIS mind of wisdom, knowledge and understanding (The mind of Christ who is the Father)..... so they can see the Father in the Son and see the Son in the Father

This is the universal reconciliation of mankind through the Son to the Father all accomplished in us by HIS Holy Spirit so that none can boast

Just wanted to add one last thing, this is the Christ (Heart of the Father) that I accept and continually accept as my Savior from my old heart and mind ..... He will finish a work He started in me .... He is not a ritual performed by us ... He is a lifestyle lived through us

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The Bible is God breathed. To deny that is to deny the whole truth of the Bible.

All scripture is god breathed, God knows what is scripture and what is not, God breathed it.

 

[Rajni]

But you accept anything which supports your UR assumptions/presuppositions without question, such as 2 Pet 3:9 and reject any verse which you think contradicts it?

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
​

What beside your opinion makes this God's word but Jeremiah is not?



I have never said anything which could be interpreted as I am an authority on anything. I cite the authorities. For example the Jews accepted Jeremiah as the word of God centuries before UR was ever heard of. Jesus accepted Jeremiah as the word of God, He quoted from Jeremiah several times, for example, He quoted from Jeremiah 7:11 in Matthew 21:13, cf. Mark 11:17, Luke 19:46

And He said to them, "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of thieves.'" And He said to them, "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of thieves.'" ​

I did not equate UR with rejecting God. Perhaps you should read more carefully.



Wrong! There are several websites online which address and refute every so-called "contradiction/error" you think you have found.

You're playing word games.
It's obvious you desperately want there to be endless torment.
May it be unto you, according to your faith.

-

 

[James Is Back]

You're playing word games.
It's obvious you desperately want there to be endless torment.
May it be unto you, according to your faith.

-

It's not that he(or anyone that holds to the ECT belief)wants endless torment but to tell the truth that ECT is a true Biblical doctrine.

 

[OldShepherd]

...

 

[2KnowHim]

It's not that he(or anyone that holds to the ECT belief)wants endless torment but to tell the truth that ECT is a true Biblical doctrine.

The phrase "Eternal Torment, or Everlasting Torment" is not once in Scripture.
The only thing that comes close to it is, "Everlasting Punishment" and this is only listed in one place in Mat. 25:46

And means Age Abiding, as God is The only one who is Eternal in the true sense of the word, having no beginning and no end, perpetual, this is what it means.

The only way one could understand what the Word Eternal means is to study what Aionios is, it is not at all the way we have a tendency to think of the word. It can ONLY apply to the one who is Eternal, whether it's life or death or fire, in Him it is Aionios. It is a "Result" of something.
Life Eternal or Death Eternal means "Quality not Quantity".

If God was to torment without a Redemptive purpose other than to inflict pain, it would be to call our Loving Father a Tyrant.